Need a new water heater - go tankless?

[Jeff7181]

I live in a 900 sq/foot condo and I have an electric water heater. I believe it's a 30 gallon tank, and it's probably 15 years old now and on its last legs. I want to replace it before it springs a leak and destroys things and I'm considering a tankless one.

I have one bathroom (shower/bath tub) a dish washer and a clothes washer.

Based on my estimation, if I ran all three of those at the same time, my consumption could be as high as 6.5 gallons per minute - but I don't think I've ever run all three at once. I usually don't even run two at once.

So... I was thinking if I got something like this: http://www.homedepot.com/p/EcoSmart...ss-Water-Heater-ECO-27/203316218?N=5yc1vZc1ty

... I might save some money on electricity to keep the tank warm while nobody is using it (I live alone now). I'm thinking it might be good for resale value as well since even if a small family moved in, they could basically take endless showers as long as they didn't run other hot water consuming appliances.

Anyone have any thoughts or experiences they'd care to share on this?

The biggest potential problem I see is the electrical requirements for such a heater - the EcoSmart 27 is as high as 112.5 amps. I don't know how many amps can be delivered to my condo...

 

[vi edit]

That's a 3x40 amp breaker. Also going to need something like 8 gauge wiring to it. How far is the heater from your breaker box?

 

[highland145]

the EcoSmart 27 is as high as 112.5 amps.

Guess gas is out of the question.

 

[mike2fix]

This may be an oversimplification but I have not seen/heard much good about the Tankless water heaters that use electricity. The good reviews I have seen were for gas run units. It's been a while since I researched it, so maybe that has changed?

 

[joutlaw]

Tankless is the way to go. We have 2 in our house, but they use natural gas. The gas lantern above our front door uses more gas in a month .

 

[Metron]

OP,

Just replaced a 40 gallon water heater at home. My girlfriend was ready to spend the extra coin on a tankless water heater, so we found a local plumber who was a friend of her father's. He quoted a price of $4,000 to replace the existing gas water heater with an indoor tankless unit...

and a price of $975 to upgrade the existing 40 gallon gas heater with a larger 50 gallon gas unit.

He said, "An honest plumber won't sell you a tankless water heater... unless you have a large family (OP is single and living alone), the minimal cost savings of tankless won't repay your high initial investment before you have to replace it again."

He also said that most people that inquire about tankless tend to be younger females who want to "go green".

We went with the 50 gallon traditional gas unit.

 

[tortillasoup]

The issue with tankless water heaters is if you have people who shut the hot water on and off frequently, that's bad for the machine.

If you do buy a tankless water heater, be sure to get a condensing tankless water heater which is like 95% efficient. The best part of the tankless is no standby usage as the pilot light on water heaters is the biggest power consumer.

You COULD get a heat pump electric water heater which is also very efficient. What I like about those is that you can do some funky things with it like using it as an air conditioner in the summer to cool off a room, run it off solar power to be 100% green, etc.

 

[T9D]

I never liked tankless. Only great if you have a huge family that uses tons of hot water and don't want it to run out. Otherwise I find it way to inconsistent and throttles to much. Drives me nuts. A good tank water heater works awesome, you can insulate around it even more if you want it to be even more efficient. And tankless are loud as crap. So annoying. wooooEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE wooooEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE wooooooEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. Everytime you touch the dang hot water handle.

 

[Scarpozzi]

My father-in-law works for the electric company. He claimed that electric tankless units cause transformers to trip all the time.

Both of us (he and I), have natural gas tankless units in our houses. My advice is to look at NG or Propane...and as stated, the condensing units are the way to go. My monthly gas bill is very low and my electric bill dropped at least $30 a month when I switched.

Try this place: http://bargaintory.com/search.asp?pagesize=&inv=&sort=price_desc&page=1&search=tankless Like them on facebook, possibly for extra savings. (10%?)

If you do have to go electric, definitely research the unit you decide to buy. Don't limit yourself to what's sold in the big box stores. Those units may not be the best.... I don't have a recommendation of brand on the electric front.

I have a Rinnai 8gpm and it does great in the SouthEast. The limitation on these is represented by a chart of water temp in and set water temp out. If the differential is too great, your gpm goes down. Check out this chart/guide for appropriate sizing.
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/view.cfm?objID=909CDE15-A710-46F7-AC37-98BA0092ABA7

 

[Attic]

The issue with tankless water heaters is if you have people who shut the hot water on and off frequently, that's bad for the machine.

If you do buy a tankless water heater, be sure to get a condensing tankless water heater which is like 95% efficient. The best part of the tankless is no standby usage as the pilot light on water heaters is the biggest power consumer.

You COULD get a heat pump electric water heater which is also very efficient. What I like about those is that you can do some funky things with it like using it as an air conditioner in the summer to cool off a room, run it off solar power to be 100% green, etc.

Bolded for what i'd suggest. These are Hybrid units and are very efficient. They cost more than traditional tank heaters and require special height clearance, but if it fits and you can find a good price i'd consider hybrid before tankless.

 

[Jimzz]

I looked into it and it did not make sense. To high an entry cost, long pay back period, and reliability was hit or miss at best.

I just got a energy star water heater and have not had a problem.

 

[Fritzo]

From experience, if you have 1-2 people in your house, fine. More than that, tankless heaters suck.

 

[Scarpozzi]

I never liked tankless. Only great if you have a huge family that uses tons of hot water and don't want it to run out. Otherwise I find it way to inconsistent and throttles to much. Drives me nuts. A good tank water heater works awesome, you can insulate around it even more if you want it to be even more efficient. And tankless are loud as crap. So annoying. wooooEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE wooooEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE wooooooEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE. Everytime you touch the dang hot water handle.

What model/brand/type did you buy?

I have to say, mine is not inconsistent or loud in the least...but maybe that's another advantage of gas over electric?

I've got my water heater in the crawlspace mounted on the wall. I can hear the burner fire when it comes on and hear a slight noise from the exhaust running, but other than that, it has a green LED labeled 'in use' or you wouldn't know it was running. It's got a small footprint: about the size of a 26" TV mounted up endways and vented to the outside.

Because of where it is, I've got a remote control unit in my laundry room so I can check the status of the unit and change the temp. It's currently set to 115 degrees, but I had it at 110 for a long time. At 110, you can take a hot shower without having to mix cold water at the valve (more efficient).

 

[mikeford]

Initial costs WAY too high vs life of the unit for one person.

 

[Genx87]

And don't these tankless heaters not work quite as well in cold climates which the OP is considered being in SE Michigan?

 

[Jeff7181]

That's a 3x40 amp breaker. Also going to need something like 8 gauge wiring to it. How far is the heater from your breaker box?

About 4 feet.

To address the rest of the questions and comments...

I believe gas is out of the question - my furnace is gas, but it's on the opposite side of the condo, and being that it's a condo, I don't think I'm allowed to have additional pipe run even if I was willing to pay for it all.

I was under the impression that being the only user of hot water in the house that a tankless would would probably be idea for me because I shower twice a day at most... run the dish washer about twice a week and only use hot water for laundry once a week. So there's A LOT of time there where the water in the tank is being kept hot for no real reason.

A heat pump is likely not an option, space is extremely limited and I'm not allowed to modify any of the structure or outdoor area.

I didn't realize tankless heaters made noise - that would be annoying since it's in close proximity to... everything... seeing as how it's a 900 sq/foot place.

Also, insulating around a tank is not an option unless it was a really thin fiberglass mat or something, which is not what I think of when I think of a water heater blanket. Space is limited - there's not even enough room around the tank to add a "blanket" as there's less than an inch of clearance all the way around the tank - it's in a corner, penned in by my clothes dryer.

 

[vi edit]

Not a heat pump, hybrid electric heater. It's a water heater with a heating element and a heat pump mounted to the top of it. The heat pump will work as a primary heating source and then it will fall back on the heating element as demands dictate.

Very efficient, but not good solutions for high volume users. Would probably be ideal in your situation.

Only thing to note is that they tend to have some reliability issues. GE in particular has terrible reviews on the compressor in the heat pump failing.

 

[vi edit]

Electric on demand won't make noise. There's no moving parts in them. Maybe a few ticking noises as they heat up, but that's it. Gas heaters on the other hand are noisier. You can hear the burners kick in.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I've thought about it but think I'll eventually just get a higher efficiency tank. My current one is like 50% efficient. Idealy I'd love a tank that works similar to a high efficiency furnace where it uses outside air for combustion and uses up so much of the heat that the exhaust is just ABS pipe. Now that is efficient! If you can burn yourself on the pipe that's heat being wasted.

 

[NetWareHead]

Go for a high efficiency tank unit. There really is not much loss on a tank. Touch the outside of an operating water heater, it will be room temperature. Thats how good the insulation is. I mean you can wrap an insulating blanket around for even more savings but IMO, its not worth it unless you can get the blanket for sale or clearance at Home Depot.

The majority of your costs will be the electric installation. According to the specs, that is 112 amps of draw. Most houses are wired for 100 to 200 amps to the main breaker panel. In fact, your condo may not even be able to support this. Someone earlier mentioned 3x40 amps plus 8 gauge wire ($$$) Check with an electrician if even technically feasible.

You list your max water consumption at 6.5 gallons a minute and the specs for this heater shows its heating capability at:
Flow Rate @ 35 F Rise 5.25 gallons a min
Flow Rate @ 45F Rise 4.08 gallons a min
Flow Rate @ 77 F Rise 2.39 gallons a min

Thats the temp the heater can raise the water temp and flow rate. The colder the incoming water, the more work and less flow the heater will accomplish. Being in michigan I'd imagine it gets cold there. According to your max flow projections, this heater cannot do all of what you simultaneously want. If I spent all of that money and couldn't do all of that I'd be disappointed. Right now your tank heater can flow all of that until it runs out.

 

[Phoenix86]

Electric on demand won't make noise. There's no moving parts in them. Maybe a few ticking noises as they heat up, but that's it. Gas heaters on the other hand are noisier. You can hear the burners kick in.

We have 3 smaller electric ones, there's a fairly loud click on each one every time the hot water kicks in. Also, too much flow and it just shuts off, so there's low flow added to each faucet.

I'd stay away from electric tankless for sure, and perhaps tankless all together.

 

[Scarpozzi]

About 4 feet.

To address the rest of the questions and comments...

I believe gas is out of the question - my furnace is gas, but it's on the opposite side of the condo, and being that it's a condo, I don't think I'm allowed to have additional pipe run even if I was willing to pay for it all.

I was under the impression that being the only user of hot water in the house that a tankless would would probably be idea for me because I shower twice a day at most... run the dish washer about twice a week and only use hot water for laundry once a week. So there's A LOT of time there where the water in the tank is being kept hot for no real reason.

A heat pump is likely not an option, space is extremely limited and I'm not allowed to modify any of the structure or outdoor area.

I didn't realize tankless heaters made noise - that would be annoying since it's in close proximity to... everything... seeing as how it's a 900 sq/foot place.

Also, insulating around a tank is not an option unless it was a really thin fiberglass mat or something, which is not what I think of when I think of a water heater blanket. Space is limited - there's not even enough room around the tank to add a "blanket" as there's less than an inch of clearance all the way around the tank - it's in a corner, penned in by my clothes dryer.

Don't listen to the people saying they're loud. The air handler on my hvac unit makes far more noise. If you're in the shower, who cares anyway. I seriously can barely tell the thing is on. (I was in my crawlspace a few times when my wife turned water on upstairs...I could hear it, but it wasn't more than a slight click and the sound of the exhaust...very very light noise)

What kind of closet is your gas furnace in? Do you have any water pipes in or near that closet? You *could possibly cap your lines and have your water circuits redirected through that closet. I'd have to see the floorplan, but it could be doable. It's just recommended that you have a 3/4" gas line to handle the volume needed. Most units are around 130k btus, I think. For water, the input/output are also standard at 3/4" pipe.

Simply replacing your current tank water heater will be cheaper up front. I had about $1300 in putting in my NG water heater....but the reason I replaced my 10 year old AO Smith water heater was because it had developed a leak and was about to get worse. They don't make quality tanks anymore.... You can expect longer life from a tankless, but the cost up front is offset so the energy savings and any tax credits you apply for is where you make your money back. There was a $300 credit the past few years on eligible models.

So you have a gas furnace in your place already? Is your hot water tank in closet?

 

[tortillasoup]

Heat pump water heaters typically make noise of around 60db which is about the sound of a room air conditioner. Some people find this to be too loud, especially my mom but if you have the water heater where there aren't bedrooms, then it shouldn't really matter all that much.

Instant on water heaters are also noisy and more annoying noisy as their noise isn't too consistent if washing dishes/laundry/hot water from the tap, don't put them anywhere near a bedroom, the noise they make especially if the hot water it turned on and off frequently is disturbing and annoying. The noise they make with a continuous flow of water isn't too bad but definitely noticeable. For noise, I'd pick the heatpump water heater as the compressor runs for long periods of time and I think it's easier to put sound deadening insulation to hide the noise.

 

[DrPizza]

Go for a high efficiency tank unit. There really is not much loss on a tank. Touch the outside of an operating water heater, it will be room temperature. Thats how good the insulation is. I mean you can wrap an insulating blanket around for even more savings but IMO, its not worth it unless you can get the blanket for sale or clearance at Home Depot.

The majority of your costs will be the electric installation. According to the specs, that is 112 amps of draw. Most houses are wired for 100 to 200 amps to the main breaker panel. In fact, your condo may not even be able to support this. Someone earlier mentioned 3x40 amps plus 8 gauge wire ($$$) Check with an electrician if even technically feasible.

Agreed, except for the cost of the electrical install. Since his box is just a few feet away from the water heater, he'll need about 6 feet of liquid tight conduit - about 80 cents per foot. Two male fittings for the ends; about $2 each, about 9 feet of each strand of 8 gauge copper THHN (about 65 cents per foot at the box store). And 3 breakers; depending on brand, could be about $12-15 each. (I just got a 50amp Cutler Hammer breaker the other day; it was $14.) So, his total material cost is about $100 for the electrical. The electrical connections shouldn't take more than 15-20 minutes. If the conduit has to be longer, run inside the wall, etc., that might add time. And, if he was making a much longer run, if local code allows, he could use heavier gauge aluminum wire. I just picked up 50-some feet of service entrance cable the other day, it was about $1 per foot; plus a couple bucks for Noalox (gel stuff for the connections to prevent oxidation).

Of course, if he lived in an area where he had to pull electrical permits & have an inspection done, etc., then that would add to the cost. That's not a universal requirement though.

 

[vi edit]

Biggest issue is power. If he's only got a 100 amp box then he's hosed.