Not only that but many "dual rail" PSUs are internally single rail designs with split (limited) outputs.
Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
You're confused.
Mulitple leads do not come from multiple rails. You can have 1,000 leads but all of the +5V and +3.3V is going to come from the same source, or "rail", inside the power supply.
Dual rails means dual 12V rails, and those mutliple rails do not allow the user to "choose" what rail powers what as +12V1 is always on the 4-pin P4 connector and +12V1 is always everything else.
This varies when you have a tri-rail which puts PCI-es on their own +12V rail or quad rail where the two CPU's on an 8-pin EPS connector or each PCI-e connector are put on their own +12V rail.
If moving connectors around inside your case yields better stability then the problem is not "rail" related. You either have a very crappy power supply with very thin gage wires that can not handle the additional amperage of multiple components on it, or you have a bent pin in one of the connectors somewhere that's causing resistance and screwing things up.
Also, you wouldn't want to put dissimilar devices together on a lead because one device may "dirty" the voltage for another on that same lead. For example: plugging an inverter for for a CCFL in line with your PCI-e connector would be a bad idea.
Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: Howard
But it shouldn't. Could you tell us about the problems you've been having that you think are caused by multiple rails?Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: Operandi
I would reconsider your single rail requirement as it's not going to make any difference in stability.
For a tight budget I recommend Forton-Source and Enhance, stay away from Thermaltake.
It does make a difference, i know from experience.
(This rig is an OCed Venice, and Geforce 6800GT SLI, 2 drives, 2 HDs)
Loading one rail too much caused failure to post and crashes under load, only rearranging the wiring inside the case fixed the issue, by running direct lines to the DFI NF4 Ultra-D for the 2 extra power connectors (one floppy and one regular molex, on top of the 24pin connector and the 4 pin 12v).
You're confused.
Mulitple leads do not come from multiple rails. You can have 1,000 leads but all of the +5V and +3.3V is going to come from the same source, or "rail", inside the power supply.
Dual rails means dual 12V rails, and those mutliple rails do not allow the user to "choose" what rail powers what as +12V1 is always on the 4-pin P4 connector and +12V1 is always everything else.
This varies when you have a tri-rail which puts PCI-es on their own +12V rail or quad rail where the two CPU's on an 8-pin EPS connector or each PCI-e connector are put on their own +12V rail.
If moving connectors around inside your case yields better stability then the problem is not "rail" related. You either have a very crappy power supply with very thin gage wires that can not handle the additional amperage of multiple components on it, or you have a bent pin in one of the connectors somewhere that's causing resistance and screwing things up.
Also, you wouldn't want to put dissimilar devices together on a lead because one device may "dirty" the voltage for another on that same lead. For example: plugging an inverter for for a CCFL in line with your PCI-e connector would be a bad idea.
Originally posted by: Operandi
Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
You're confused.
Mulitple leads do not come from multiple rails. You can have 1,000 leads but all of the +5V and +3.3V is going to come from the same source, or "rail", inside the power supply.
Dual rails means dual 12V rails, and those mutliple rails do not allow the user to "choose" what rail powers what as +12V1 is always on the 4-pin P4 connector and +12V1 is always everything else.
This varies when you have a tri-rail which puts PCI-es on their own +12V rail or quad rail where the two CPU's on an 8-pin EPS connector or each PCI-e connector are put on their own +12V rail.
If moving connectors around inside your case yields better stability then the problem is not "rail" related. You either have a very crappy power supply with very thin gage wires that can not handle the additional amperage of multiple components on it, or you have a bent pin in one of the connectors somewhere that's causing resistance and screwing things up.
Also, you wouldn't want to put dissimilar devices together on a lead because one device may "dirty" the voltage for another on that same lead. For example: plugging an inverter for for a CCFL in line with your PCI-e connector would be a bad idea.
Not only that but many "dual rail" PSUs are internally single rail designs with split (limited) outputs.
Originally posted by: skooma
truepowers or tpII's?Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: MrX8503
Every single time there is a thread about a dead antec its always a smartpower. I have never seen a thread about a dead truepowerii. just smartpowers.
Ive had 2 Truepowers die, a Truecontrol, and now the Smartpower 2.0.
anyway, that sparkle is nice and for more money, i was looking at the silverstone 56f2 (?) i'll look it up later. newegg has is, the only single 12v rail silverstone iirc. but it froogled for ~20 less i think.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817163111
Originally posted by: DLeRium
Tight budget, stick wtih Fortron or OCZ.
I think dual rail or single rail is fine.
If you want quality, I suggest Seasonic of PCP&C. Just cuz it's dual rail doesn't mean it's bad. My 600W Seasonic lasts for my Opteron 170, 7800GT, 2 HDs, 2 burners...
There's no point. Taking advantage of consumer ignorance, I suppose.Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: Operandi
Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
You're confused.
Mulitple leads do not come from multiple rails. You can have 1,000 leads but all of the +5V and +3.3V is going to come from the same source, or "rail", inside the power supply.
Dual rails means dual 12V rails, and those mutliple rails do not allow the user to "choose" what rail powers what as +12V1 is always on the 4-pin P4 connector and +12V1 is always everything else.
This varies when you have a tri-rail which puts PCI-es on their own +12V rail or quad rail where the two CPU's on an 8-pin EPS connector or each PCI-e connector are put on their own +12V rail.
If moving connectors around inside your case yields better stability then the problem is not "rail" related. You either have a very crappy power supply with very thin gage wires that can not handle the additional amperage of multiple components on it, or you have a bent pin in one of the connectors somewhere that's causing resistance and screwing things up.
Also, you wouldn't want to put dissimilar devices together on a lead because one device may "dirty" the voltage for another on that same lead. For example: plugging an inverter for for a CCFL in line with your PCI-e connector would be a bad idea.
Not only that but many "dual rail" PSUs are internally single rail designs with split (limited) outputs.
So what the hell is the point of that?
Originally posted by: Howard
There's no point. Taking advantage of consumer ignorance, I suppose.
nm, thought you were talking about something elseOriginally posted by: Operandi
Originally posted by: Howard
There's no point. Taking advantage of consumer ignorance, I suppose.
Dual rails is not a marketing tool, it was never meant to be aimed at consumers. It's a safety "feature", which was really the whole point of Intel putting it in the AXT standard in the first place.
Basically it limits you from drawing all the 12v power off of one or two molex, PCI-E connectors or whatever the case may be.
Example you can have a PSU with 36A of total 12v power split across two 12v rails rated at 20As each, you can draw up to 20As from either rail as long as you don?t exceed 36As across both.
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: Howard
But it shouldn't. Could you tell us about the problems you've been having that you think are caused by multiple rails?Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: Operandi
I would reconsider your single rail requirement as it's not going to make any difference in stability.
For a tight budget I recommend Forton-Source and Enhance, stay away from Thermaltake.
It does make a difference, i know from experience.
(This rig is an OCed Venice, and Geforce 6800GT SLI, 2 drives, 2 HDs)
Loading one rail too much caused failure to post and crashes under load, only rearranging the wiring inside the case fixed the issue, by running direct lines to the DFI NF4 Ultra-D for the 2 extra power connectors (one floppy and one regular molex, on top of the 24pin connector and the 4 pin 12v).
You're confused.
Mulitple leads do not come from multiple rails. You can have 1,000 leads but all of the +5V and +3.3V is going to come from the same source, or "rail", inside the power supply.
Dual rails means dual 12V rails, and those mutliple rails do not allow the user to "choose" what rail powers what as +12V1 is always on the 4-pin P4 connector and +12V1 is always everything else.
This varies when you have a tri-rail which puts PCI-es on their own +12V rail or quad rail where the two CPU's on an 8-pin EPS connector or each PCI-e connector are put on their own +12V rail.
If moving connectors around inside your case yields better stability then the problem is not "rail" related. You either have a very crappy power supply with very thin gage wires that can not handle the additional amperage of multiple components on it, or you have a bent pin in one of the connectors somewhere that's causing resistance and screwing things up.
Also, you wouldn't want to put dissimilar devices together on a lead because one device may "dirty" the voltage for another on that same lead. For example: plugging an inverter for for a CCFL in line with your PCI-e connector would be a bad idea.
That is not true with Antec power supplies apparently.
12v1 and 12v2 are on the other rails as well, and balancing the power is a pain in the ass.
All i know is it worked one way, and not another way, using dedicated rails coming from the PSU both times.
Too much load on one rail was causing the stability issues... Unless you have a better explanation.
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: Operandi
Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
You're confused.
Mulitple leads do not come from multiple rails. You can have 1,000 leads but all of the +5V and +3.3V is going to come from the same source, or "rail", inside the power supply.
Dual rails means dual 12V rails, and those mutliple rails do not allow the user to "choose" what rail powers what as +12V1 is always on the 4-pin P4 connector and +12V1 is always everything else.
This varies when you have a tri-rail which puts PCI-es on their own +12V rail or quad rail where the two CPU's on an 8-pin EPS connector or each PCI-e connector are put on their own +12V rail.
If moving connectors around inside your case yields better stability then the problem is not "rail" related. You either have a very crappy power supply with very thin gage wires that can not handle the additional amperage of multiple components on it, or you have a bent pin in one of the connectors somewhere that's causing resistance and screwing things up.
Also, you wouldn't want to put dissimilar devices together on a lead because one device may "dirty" the voltage for another on that same lead. For example: plugging an inverter for for a CCFL in line with your PCI-e connector would be a bad idea.
Not only that but many "dual rail" PSUs are internally single rail designs with split (limited) outputs.
So what the hell is the point of that?
Have there been any recorded deaths or serious injuries occuring while working on PC PSUs?Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: Operandi
Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
You're confused.
Mulitple leads do not come from multiple rails. You can have 1,000 leads but all of the +5V and +3.3V is going to come from the same source, or "rail", inside the power supply.
Dual rails means dual 12V rails, and those mutliple rails do not allow the user to "choose" what rail powers what as +12V1 is always on the 4-pin P4 connector and +12V1 is always everything else.
This varies when you have a tri-rail which puts PCI-es on their own +12V rail or quad rail where the two CPU's on an 8-pin EPS connector or each PCI-e connector are put on their own +12V rail.
If moving connectors around inside your case yields better stability then the problem is not "rail" related. You either have a very crappy power supply with very thin gage wires that can not handle the additional amperage of multiple components on it, or you have a bent pin in one of the connectors somewhere that's causing resistance and screwing things up.
Also, you wouldn't want to put dissimilar devices together on a lead because one device may "dirty" the voltage for another on that same lead. For example: plugging an inverter for for a CCFL in line with your PCI-e connector would be a bad idea.
Not only that but many "dual rail" PSUs are internally single rail designs with split (limited) outputs.
So what the hell is the point of that?
Because then the output of any "rail" isn't greater than 240VA, which is the primary point of multiple 12V rails as per the UL, CSA, etc. Any one DC output that puts out more than 240VA is considered "dangerous."
Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: Howard
But it shouldn't. Could you tell us about the problems you've been having that you think are caused by multiple rails?Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: Operandi
I would reconsider your single rail requirement as it's not going to make any difference in stability.
For a tight budget I recommend Forton-Source and Enhance, stay away from Thermaltake.
It does make a difference, i know from experience.
(This rig is an OCed Venice, and Geforce 6800GT SLI, 2 drives, 2 HDs)
Loading one rail too much caused failure to post and crashes under load, only rearranging the wiring inside the case fixed the issue, by running direct lines to the DFI NF4 Ultra-D for the 2 extra power connectors (one floppy and one regular molex, on top of the 24pin connector and the 4 pin 12v).
You're confused.
Mulitple leads do not come from multiple rails. You can have 1,000 leads but all of the +5V and +3.3V is going to come from the same source, or "rail", inside the power supply.
Dual rails means dual 12V rails, and those mutliple rails do not allow the user to "choose" what rail powers what as +12V1 is always on the 4-pin P4 connector and +12V1 is always everything else.
This varies when you have a tri-rail which puts PCI-es on their own +12V rail or quad rail where the two CPU's on an 8-pin EPS connector or each PCI-e connector are put on their own +12V rail.
If moving connectors around inside your case yields better stability then the problem is not "rail" related. You either have a very crappy power supply with very thin gage wires that can not handle the additional amperage of multiple components on it, or you have a bent pin in one of the connectors somewhere that's causing resistance and screwing things up.
Also, you wouldn't want to put dissimilar devices together on a lead because one device may "dirty" the voltage for another on that same lead. For example: plugging an inverter for for a CCFL in line with your PCI-e connector would be a bad idea.
That is not true with Antec power supplies apparently.
12v1 and 12v2 are on the other rails as well, and balancing the power is a pain in the ass.
All i know is it worked one way, and not another way, using dedicated rails coming from the PSU both times.
Too much load on one rail was causing the stability issues... Unless you have a better explanation.
You are still incorrect. Antecs with two 12V rails still have all of the peripheral connectors on one rail.
It's ok to admit your wrong. It happens.
Speaking of magic in God's presence is blasphemy.Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: Howard
But it shouldn't. Could you tell us about the problems you've been having that you think are caused by multiple rails?Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: Operandi
I would reconsider your single rail requirement as it's not going to make any difference in stability.
For a tight budget I recommend Forton-Source and Enhance, stay away from Thermaltake.
It does make a difference, i know from experience.
(This rig is an OCed Venice, and Geforce 6800GT SLI, 2 drives, 2 HDs)
Loading one rail too much caused failure to post and crashes under load, only rearranging the wiring inside the case fixed the issue, by running direct lines to the DFI NF4 Ultra-D for the 2 extra power connectors (one floppy and one regular molex, on top of the 24pin connector and the 4 pin 12v).
You're confused.
Mulitple leads do not come from multiple rails. You can have 1,000 leads but all of the +5V and +3.3V is going to come from the same source, or "rail", inside the power supply.
Dual rails means dual 12V rails, and those mutliple rails do not allow the user to "choose" what rail powers what as +12V1 is always on the 4-pin P4 connector and +12V1 is always everything else.
This varies when you have a tri-rail which puts PCI-es on their own +12V rail or quad rail where the two CPU's on an 8-pin EPS connector or each PCI-e connector are put on their own +12V rail.
If moving connectors around inside your case yields better stability then the problem is not "rail" related. You either have a very crappy power supply with very thin gage wires that can not handle the additional amperage of multiple components on it, or you have a bent pin in one of the connectors somewhere that's causing resistance and screwing things up.
Also, you wouldn't want to put dissimilar devices together on a lead because one device may "dirty" the voltage for another on that same lead. For example: plugging an inverter for for a CCFL in line with your PCI-e connector would be a bad idea.
That is not true with Antec power supplies apparently.
12v1 and 12v2 are on the other rails as well, and balancing the power is a pain in the ass.
All i know is it worked one way, and not another way, using dedicated rails coming from the PSU both times.
Too much load on one rail was causing the stability issues... Unless you have a better explanation.
You are still incorrect. Antecs with two 12V rails still have all of the peripheral connectors on one rail.
It's ok to admit your wrong. It happens.
Explain the phenomenon i was experiencing then.
Because it was magic.
JESUS IS IN MY PSU!
Originally posted by: John
Acanthus, I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but you might want to consider a USP w/ AVR. Blowing that many high quality psu's sounds like dirty power in your home/office.
Originally posted by: Howard
Speaking of magic in God's presence is blasphemy.
Originally posted by: Howard
Have there been any recorded deaths or serious injuries occuring while working on PC PSUs?
EDIT: How about any that were directly caused by rails supplying more than 240VA?
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Explain the phenomenon i was experiencing then.
Because it was magic.
JESUS IS IN MY PSU!
With the smartpower 2.0 i was able to switch the sources on the PSU itself without even unplugging the molexes from the drives, motherboards, and graphics cards.
Depending on which way i connected them, which leads coming out of the PSU itself, it was either stable or unstable.
I would attribute this to too much load on one of the 2 rails.
If you have a better explanation, i'd love to hear it. Rather than playing smartass and saying it isnt possible, which isnt even relevant.
It worked one way, and not the other, by switching the leads, and loading the rails differently...
Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Explain the phenomenon i was experiencing then.
Because it was magic.
JESUS IS IN MY PSU!
With the smartpower 2.0 i was able to switch the sources on the PSU itself without even unplugging the molexes from the drives, motherboards, and graphics cards.
Depending on which way i connected them, which leads coming out of the PSU itself, it was either stable or unstable.
I would attribute this to too much load on one of the 2 rails.
If you have a better explanation, i'd love to hear it. Rather than playing smartass and saying it isnt possible, which isnt even relevant.
It worked one way, and not the other, by switching the leads, and loading the rails differently...
Probably a bad solder on the back side of the modular interface. Still has nothing to do with "rails" because the only other 12V rail is the 2x2 and that doesn't change.
The only PSU where you can do what you're doing and actually allows access to differernt rails is the NeoHE because it has three 12V rails and the last two connectors on the interface, meant for PCI-e, is on 12V3.
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Explain the phenomenon i was experiencing then.
Because it was magic.
JESUS IS IN MY PSU!
With the smartpower 2.0 i was able to switch the sources on the PSU itself without even unplugging the molexes from the drives, motherboards, and graphics cards.
Depending on which way i connected them, which leads coming out of the PSU itself, it was either stable or unstable.
I would attribute this to too much load on one of the 2 rails.
If you have a better explanation, i'd love to hear it. Rather than playing smartass and saying it isnt possible, which isnt even relevant.
It worked one way, and not the other, by switching the leads, and loading the rails differently...
Probably a bad solder on the back side of the modular interface. Still has nothing to do with "rails" because the only other 12V rail is the 2x2 and that doesn't change.
The only PSU where you can do what you're doing and actually allows access to differernt rails is the NeoHE because it has three 12V rails and the last two connectors on the interface, meant for PCI-e, is on 12V3.
So in other words, it was probably a faulty psu to begin with, before it failed?
I don't see how anybody would get shocked if they worked carefully.Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Originally posted by: Howard
Have there been any recorded deaths or serious injuries occuring while working on PC PSUs?
EDIT: How about any that were directly caused by rails supplying more than 240VA?
Does someone have to die? Maybe they just need to get really hurt?
I don't get it myself. I used to be a car mechanic and I've been zapped by a lot more than 240VA DC before, that's for sure!
Originally posted by: Howard
I don't see how anybody would get shocked if they worked carefully.Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Originally posted by: Howard
Have there been any recorded deaths or serious injuries occuring while working on PC PSUs?
EDIT: How about any that were directly caused by rails supplying more than 240VA?
Does someone have to die? Maybe they just need to get really hurt?
I don't get it myself. I used to be a car mechanic and I've been zapped by a lot more than 240VA DC before, that's for sure!
No, I know that it's easy to get shocked if you don't, but I don't know how it would happen IF you worked carefully. Unless you mean to tell me that it's impossible to get shocked if you did work carefully, in which case multiple rails are unnecessary, wouldn't you say?Originally posted by: DerwenArtos12
Originally posted by: Howard
I don't see how anybody would get shocked if they worked carefully.Originally posted by: jonnyGURU
Originally posted by: Howard
Have there been any recorded deaths or serious injuries occuring while working on PC PSUs?
EDIT: How about any that were directly caused by rails supplying more than 240VA?
Does someone have to die? Maybe they just need to get really hurt?
I don't get it myself. I used to be a car mechanic and I've been zapped by a lot more than 240VA DC before, that's for sure!
Stop and think about that sentance. You answered your own query.
Originally posted by: Howard
No, I know that it's easy to get shocked if you don't, but I don't know how it would happen IF you worked carefully. Unless you mean to tell me that it's impossible to get shocked if you did work carefully, in which case multiple rails are unnecessary, wouldn't you say?
Originally posted by: Operandi
Originally posted by: Howard
No, I know that it's easy to get shocked if you don't, but I don't know how it would happen IF you worked carefully. Unless you mean to tell me that it's impossible to get shocked if you did work carefully, in which case multiple rails are unnecessary, wouldn't you say?
Dual rails doesn?t have anything to do with user safety. It was put into effect to protect the system from overloads. Too much power flowing over any one set of wires isn't a good idea.