Need ceiling fan wiring help.

[Bird222]

I am replacing a ceiling fan. I have the following wires from the ceiling:

Red
White
Black
Bare copper ground

On the ceiling fan, I have the following wires:

Green (ground)
White
Black
Black with white stripe

I have a single switch. Using a MM the black wire seems to always be hot (121 volts). The red wire is 23.3 volts with the switch off and 121 volts with the switch on. The fan instructions say that for a single switch I should connect them like this:

Ceiling-----------------Fan
Bare Copper-----------Green
White------------------White
Black--------------------Black / Black and White stripe (together)

But it seems to me based on my measurements the fan and the light would always be 'hot' (i.e. the wall switch position doesn't matter) and can only be controlled by the chains on the fan. I would like the fan motor to always be hot and the light to be controlled by the wall switch. So in this case should I wire it like this:

Ceiling-----------------Fan
Bare Copper-----------Green
White------------------White
Black--------------------Black
Red--------------------Black and White stripe

Also does anyone know if the black wire is typically for the fan motor and the black with white strip is for the light? This fan doesn't have a single wire connector for the light. It has a little 'molex like' connector the connects the light to the fan.
It's a Hunter fan btw.

Thanks in advance!

 

[rhino56]

It sounds like it has 2 switches that control the ceiling box? A three way?

 

[edro]

3 Wires to a ceiling fan is usually so you can control the light and fan motor independently with 2 separate switches.
Open the switch box on the wall. If there are 3 wires in there, that's probably the case.
Are you sure there is only 1 switch on the wall? It is a single junction box?

If there is really only 1 switch and you can't find the other conductor, you will have to wire the black wire to both the black and black/white on the fan. This would mean power would be on to the fan motor and light when the switch is flipped.
You would then have to control the fan via the chain.
You could also buy a remote control for $30 and keep the light switch on and control the light and fan motor separately.

 

[skull]

You got it right. This is normal from what I see with 3 wire to a ceiling fan. Hook the constant hot to the motor. Hook the light to the switched hot and your good to go.

 

[amdskip]

It sounds like it has 2 switches that control the ceiling box? A three way?

Bingo, where is the other switch? It sound like you have a 3 way switch setup here. With the switch off, there should be no power unless it is a 3 way switch setup.

 

[Paperdoc]

OP, you and skull are correct. Forget about looking for another switch. The ceiling socket and switch are set up so that the wall switch controls the light only, and the chain switches on the fan control its motor irrespective of the wall switch. But no, I can't tell you which black is the light bulb. Maybe you can track that down with your multimeter, using the Resistance ranges to trace continuity between the lamp socket centre contact and one of the two black wires in the fan/light unit.

 

[Bird222]

I guess it won't hurt to switch the black wires around if I need to to test them out? As far as I know there is no second switch. One thing that is confusing is why there is voltage on the red wire when the switch is off. Granted it's not 120v but I would think there wouldn't be any.

 

[DrPizza]

No one else is concerned with a 23 volt wire coming out of the ceiling box? I'm sitting here thinking "wtf?!" (Unless there's a dimmer switch somewhere.)

 

[edro]

No one else is concerned with a 23 volt wire coming out of the ceiling box? I'm sitting here thinking "wtf?!" (Unless there's a dimmer switch somewhere.)

It's just a transient voltage from the neutral. It would drop to 0v under any load.

 

[edro]

Take the switch plate cover off of the wall switch and look at the romex cable.
I can almost guarantee it is a 3 conduct cable and the previous installer decided not to use the red conductor. If there is a red conductor in there, you can use a double switch like this:

I can almost guarantee your fan is not a 3-Way wired fan. If it was, there would be 2 switches on the walls (at completely different locations) and it is uncommon to have a 3-Way wired fan anyway.
Whoever, it is extremely common to run 3 wire cable to ceiling fans so you can control the fan motor and light independently.

 

[Analog]

No one else is concerned with a 23 volt wire coming out of the ceiling box? I'm sitting here thinking "wtf?!" (Unless there's a dimmer switch somewhere.)

Its an unloaded wire that has voltage induced from an adjacent wire. The op is measuring with a high impedance meter. This would be solved if an old school "wiggy" was used which loads the wire while measuring.

 

[Shawn]

OP, you and skull are correct. Forget about looking for another switch. The ceiling socket and switch are set up so that the wall switch controls the light only, and the chain switches on the fan control its motor irrespective of the wall switch. But no, I can't tell you which black is the light bulb. Maybe you can track that down with your multimeter, using the Resistance ranges to trace continuity between the lamp socket centre contact and one of the two black wires in the fan/light unit.

This was how my house was set-up in 2 of the rooms for some reason. Someone added another set of wiring after the fact. I ended up getting one of those "old-construction" boxes and expanded it to a 2 switch box.

For one room I couldn't do that because the switch was between a wall stud and a door frame and there wasn't enough room, so I put in a switch like this:

edit: guess someone else already posted the same thing

 

[Bird222]

Take the switch plate cover off of the wall switch and look at the romex cable.
I can almost guarantee it is a 3 conduct cable and the previous installer decided not to use the red conductor. If there is a red conductor in there, you can use a double switch like this:

I can almost guarantee your fan is not a 3-Way wired fan. If it was, there would be 2 switches on the walls (at completely different locations) and it is uncommon to have a 3-Way wired fan anyway.
Whoever, it is extremely common to run 3 wire cable to ceiling fans so you can control the fan motor and light independently.

Glad to know the voltage on the red wire is nothing to worry about. I'll look behind the switch plate. I assume the 'romex cable' is the cable that has the individual wires bundled together? I am pretty sure there is no 3-way fan because there isn't another switch in the room.

Thanks for all the responses so far.

 

[Modelworks]

If the hot / black is always live then someone wired it wrong. while it will not cause any problems the neutral wires are always the ones to remain connected and you switch the voltage on the hot wires. If the red wire is being used as a switch wire then there is also supposed to be a piece of tape around it to indicate that it is being used as a switch, usually a black piece of tape is used to tell someone that it has been re-purposed and that it isn't a supply wire.

To make it clearer , if properly wired it should black + white = fan and Red + white = light. If it is Red+black to power the light then the switch is wired wrong.

 

[Bird222]

Glad to know the voltage on the red wire is nothing to worry about. I'll look behind the switch plate. I assume the 'romex cable' is the cable that has the individual wires bundled together? I am pretty sure there is no 3-way fan because there isn't another switch in the room.

Thanks for all the responses so far.

Ok, here is what's in the switch box. There are two cables behind the switch. One cable has 4 wires (bare copper, black, red & white) the other cable has 3 wires (bare copper, black & white). Both black wires are connected to the bottom right of the switch. The red wire is connected to the top right of the switch. The two white wires are twisted together. The two bare copper wires are twisted together.

 

[Modelworks]

Ok, here is what's in the switch box. There are two cables behind the switch. One cable has 4 wires (bare copper, black, red & white) the other cable has 3 wires (bare copper, black & white). Both black wires are connected to the bottom right of the switch. The red wire is connected to the top right of the switch. The two white wires are twisted together. The two bare copper wires are twisted together.

If both black wires are attached to the same screw terminal that is a violation as you are not allowed to use a screw point as a union for two wires. You have to join the two wires with a 3rd shorter piece of wire called a pigtail , and put a wire nut on that. Then only that new short wire connects to the screw on the switch.

Place a loop of black tape on the red wire and attach it to the other screw on the switch. That tape shows you are now using the red wire as a substitute for another black wire coming from the switch. At the fan hookup you should then have power between the black and white always for the fan which you will use the fans switch to control. for the light it would connect to the red + white controlled by the wall switch.

 

[Newbian]

Don't forget to take the ceiling cat out first otherwise you will have issues.

 

[Bird222]

If both black wires are attached to the same screw terminal that is a violation as you are not allowed to use a screw point as a union for two wires. You have to join the two wires with a 3rd shorter piece of wire called a pigtail , and put a wire nut on that. Then only that new short wire connects to the screw on the switch.

Place a loop of black tape on the red wire and attach it to the other screw on the switch. That tape shows you are now using the red wire as a substitute for another black wire coming from the switch. At the fan hookup you should then have power between the black and white always for the fan which you will use the fans switch to control. for the light it would connect to the red + white controlled by the wall switch.

Actually one black wire is looped on the screw and the other black wire is pushed straight into the switch next to the screw terminal. Just curious, why is it a violation?

 

[Fiat1]

the black/white is feed the hot/neutral. The black/red/white is the fan. With both blacks together and connected to the light or fan you could use the pull chain and turn on one from the fan location. you than would connect the red to the switch and turn on the light from the switch. Or replace the switch with a double switch and control both from the switch location. Both whites connect together.

 

[Shawn]

Actually one black wire is looped on the screw and the other black wire is pushed straight into the switch next to the screw terminal. Just curious, why is it a violation?

I think it violates code, but whether it's a safety issue I dunno. I found I had several outlets done the same way.

 

[Modelworks]

Actually one black wire is looped on the screw and the other black wire is pushed straight into the switch next to the screw terminal. Just curious, why is it a violation?

It violates code because you are relying on a connection designed for one wire to be used as not only a connection point but also as a means to secure multiple wires. Wires done like that tend to slip off the screws and short. It also makes the wires more likely to break from fatigue where the bends occur on both the wires around the screw.

If you put one wire on the screw and another using the back push 'n lock connector on the switch then you are again using the switch as a union for the two black wires. Internally the switch may not have a thick enough gauge of metal to serve as a connection for those two wires and the load it is switching. This can be okay to do with receptacles but not switches. Notice on receptacles there is tab on the outside joining the upper and lower screws. Using the push in connections are not advised by a lot of electricians because they tend to not be as secure as screw connections. Use the screw if possible.


wiring of light:

pigtailing for joining wires:

 

[Bird222]

Based on everything I am reading here, I will be safe trying to connect the always hot black wire to the black wire on the fan and the red switch wire to the black/white stripe wire for the light portion correct? I feel clear on the house wiring but I just can't confirm that the fan wiring is like I think it is. It won't hurt to try it right?

EDIT: Wait a minute, I was re-reading some posts. Are you saying that the white wire should be connected to the switch anywhere? Like I said above the white wire is connected to another white wire in the switch box. I don't know where the other end of the wire goes.

 

[Modelworks]

Based on everything I am reading here, I will be safe trying to connect the always hot black wire to the black wire on the fan and the red switch wire to the black/white stripe wire for the light portion correct? I feel clear on the house wiring but I just can't confirm that the fan wiring is like I think it is. It won't hurt to try it right?

 

[Bird222]

Thanks for the drawing, but I didn't need it. At this point I was just wanting confirmation that the black wire with the white strip would control the light. It does.

Thanks for everyone's help. I got it installed and working like I want.

 

[wirednuts]

yeah usually the black wire with the white stripe is for the light. just try it that way, if its backward from the way you want then just change it.

we used to put 2 wires under one screw. it holds fine if you do it right (tight loop on the wires and crank the screw down real good). you can put two wires onto one connecting screw as long as its rated for it (like in panels, there will be a label telling you how many wires on a screw). not sure if outlets are rated for it or not, but we used to do it all the time.

most jurisdictions dont allow backstabbing anymore either (wire pushed into back of switch or outlet). although the technique is UL listed, most inspectors want pigtales on everything. this backstabbing actually i think is more dangerous then putting two wires on one screw. backstabbing commonly leads to wires popping off... usually not while the device is in the wall installed, but rather when you go to work on it and pull the device out... you can get a hot leg to pop right out and onto your hand. its happened to me a few times. and as far as i know, all backstabbed wires can pull out with a little twisting effort. that design is not the best.