Need help with two Dell computers that won't boot

[Fardringle]

I have a problem with two Dell Dimension 5150 desktop computers in one of my offices. I'll call them PC1 and PC2.

The user of PC1 reported Monday morning that she was not able to get her computer to turn on after turning it off for the weekend. The power button blinks amber every 2 seconds but the system does not even attempt to turn on when the button is pressed. Knowing that the 5150 has an issue with flaky power buttons, I went in expecting to just have to reset the CMOS and the system would boot normally again (this has happened a few times to both machines in the past).

However, I could not get the computer to turn on no matter what I tried, including disconnecting all peripherals, drives, and the PCIE video card. I didn't have time to do any more troubleshooting yesterday before another appointment so I came back in today to try and fix the problem.

Both computers are out of warranty, so Dell won't even talk to me to troubleshoot the problem.

To attempt to narrow down the cause of the failure so that I can tell Dell which part(s) to send me, I tried the parts from PC2 (previously working) in PC1 and the parts from PC1 in PC2 one at a time. I swapped the power supply, RAM, hard drive, CD drive, CPU, video card, and IDE/SATA cables. However, regardless of the hardware configurations and swaps I tried, I could not get PC1 to boot with the CPU or power supply from PC1, and I could not get PC2 to boot with any parts from PC1. Now, after putting all of the parts back in their original cases, PC1 still will not boot (not a surprise) and PC2 also will not turn on.

I suspect that the power supply failed in PC1 and took out the motherboard and CPU, and then either the PSU or CPU from PC1 killed the motherboard in PC2 when I tried them there, but I can't think of any way to prove it or to determine which of the parts in either system are still good. (In case you are wondering, I told the office owner that this might happen when I swapped parts, but he said to try it anyway.)

Personally, I'd rather just get them new computers, but adding in the cost of upgrading to Windows XP Pro from Vista (some of the software they use will not work in Vista and Dell won't ship machines with XP any more), it would be significantly more expensive than just replacing a few parts in the old machines. However, since they aren't under warranty, I don't want to randomly buy parts and hope they will work. If you have any suggestions of what I can do to verify which part(s) have failed so that they can be replaced, I would appreciate it.

 

[Fardringle]

This should have been in Computer Help instead of General Hardware. I'm not sure how it ended up here, so if a Mod can move it, I'd appreciate it.

There you go.

AnandTech Moderator
Smoke

 

[Smoke]

You mentioned there are known problems with the start buttons on these computers. Did you try to bypass the start button and jump the start pins?

Since both computers were located in the same business I'm suspicious there may have been a power surge. A computer in the powered down state is not protected from lightning strikes and other severe power problems. Were the computers protected by a quality surge protector or an UPS? If they were not surge protected, check to see if there was a storm over the weekend.

 

[g8wayrebel]

Get systems with Vista , buy XP Home on line 80- 90$ and run them in virtual drive on Vista boxes.
You now have two full versions of XP Home and Vista (proprietary naturally) and are able to have the best of both worlds at much lower cost.
There are very few differences in Home and Pro other then encryption and Remote access and if you run a virtual machine , it has all the benefits of it's home OS since it is a file running on that OS.
Sorry , can't help with the actual issue , but thought this would be a viable solution.

By the way , even if you did have surge protection , it has a limited life span unless it is a load bank which actually uses the excess power.

 

[Fardringle]

Yes, I bypassed the power switch and got no response from the power supply. The power LED on the motherboard lights up and the power button blinks, but neither system will do anything else.

There weren't any storms over the weekend, but it is possible that PC1 was damaged by a power surge since the person that uses that computer apparently unplugged her PC from the UPS and plugged it straight into the wall at some point for some reason that must have seemed like a good idea at the time. I didn't know this until I started looking at it today. She denies doing it but I had it connected to the UPS and nobody else uses that computer...

PC2 is on a UPS and was working normally until I started swapping parts to troubleshoot the problem.


It's starting to look like I might just have to replace the computers, which leads to another problem. The agency management software that this office uses will not run at all in any variety of Windows Vista or Linux. I appreciate the suggestion, but it will not run in a virtual machine environment either.

The office is on a Windows domain so I can't use XP Home and will have to spend quite a bit for new XP Pro licenses if I go that route. Nobody (that I can find) sells new computers with XP Pro any more, so my options I have come up with so far are:

1) Hope that the existing XP installs on the old SATA hard drives will be able to find and use the SATA controllers in the new computers (or possibly get it to work with a repair installation). This would be preferable since it will keep all of their programs and data intact if I can make it work.
2) Buy separate XP Pro licenses, wipe Vista, and install XP on the new computers. This is the most expensive option but guaranteed to work as long as there are XP drivers for the hardware.
3) Attempt to install XP Pro on the new computers using the OEM license keys from the old computers. This isn't likely to work since Dell uses bulk OEM installation licenses on a lot of their computers and the key on the case sticker isn't really an installation key.

 

[robisbell]

PC1 took a power surge, and fried something, by putting whatever was damaged into the good machine, it damaged PC2 to the point making it unusable. I'd suggest you start with the basic, get a multimeter and test the PSU's.

 

[Slowlearner]

I have the exact same problem this monday and am still trying to resolve the problem.

For out of warranty pcs Dell charges $49 to try and trouble shoot the problem over the phone and then suggest parts to be replaced. Went through that - the usual stuff - and went ahead and ordered a power supply (looks like a regular ps not custom) and a motherboard 129$. This problem seems to be common enough for a faq to be posted at Dell's forums:

http://www.dellcommunity.com/s...other&thread.id=358135
"Because there are a variety of hardware reasons that could lead to No Power/No POST situations where the Power LED is blinking amber on the Dimension 5150/E510, you should contact Dell Support to ascertain what part(s) is defective. Tell the technician to look up DSN Document ID: 341244.

Inside of Warranty
Contact Support 1-800-624-9896, and they will troubleshoot the blinking amber LED symptom and replace the defective part(s) per your warranty coverage. We will first replace the power supply and the Front I/O and Control Panel Assembly. If this fails to fix the blinking amber LED symptom, we will then send out a motherboard.

Parts needed in first service -
X8543 Front I/O and Control Panel Assembly
Power Supply (there are several part numbers. The technician can find this using your service tag number)

If the above parts do fix the Blinking Amber LED, we will then send a motherboard -
NH720 Motherboard Service Kit for Prescott CPUs
TJ946 Motherboard Service Kit for Cedar Mill, Smithfield, and Presler CPUs
==========

Outside of warranty
If you did not previously contact Dell-Jesse and get confirmation from him that you are on the list, you must pay Dell On Call 1-888-236-3355 to troubleshoot the blinking amber power LED. Once they ascertain what part(s) is defective, you may purchase the part(s) from Dell Spare Parts 1-800-357-3355. We are not giving the parts away. If this is happening, the technicians are going against Dell Policy.

X8543 Front I/O and Control Panel Assembly
Power Supply (there are several part numbers. The technician can find this using your service tag number)
NH720 Motherboard Service Kit for Prescott CPUs
TJ946 Motherboard Service Kit for Cedar Mill, Smithfield, and Presler CPUs "

There is confusion about the part# for the mb - I gave up trying sort that one out - I am waiting for them to arrive and then we will see. While on the phone, be prepared to wait and constantly be transferred to another phone, and repeat the whole thing. Even the info in the faq is incorrect. In or out of warranty, you have to start with the in warranty number.

Will report back next week, if I can find a solution.

 

[bruceb]

If you want new Dells and they are desktop type .. see link:

http://www.dell.com/content/pr...c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz

All on this page can be had with XP Pro installed on them.
If these are not to your liking look at other under Dell Large Business section.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Use a wire or paperclip to short the green wire to any black wire on the psu connector that connects to the mb (disconnect all all the psu leads from devices in the box). See if the psu starts up. If it does, it's worth checking with a multimeter. Having it start up when you do this isn't a sure thing that it is OK, but not starting up is a sure sign it is bad.

 

[Fardringle]

Thank you, bruceb. The last time I checked Dell's site (a few weeks ago), they didn't have XP Pro as an option on any of their new systems. They actually made an announcement a few months ago that they would not be offering XP any more. Apparently enough people complained that they made it available again. That solves my OS problem so I went ahead and ordered two new desktop machines.

Jack, I tried that but didn't get any response from the PSU. The fan didn't even twitch on PC1. The power supply in PC2 spins up normally. Both machines get some power since it is lighting up the motherboard and power button LEDs, but nothing else. I think rob is right and PC1 got hit by a power surge that likely killed the motherboard which in turn killed both CPUs.

 

[Slowlearner]

Jacksmitt, tried the tried out the paperclip short and the psu did fire up >> fan spinning. Reseated all power connectors 24 pin/4pin etc. but the computer wont fire up so it has to be the front I/O and Control Panel or the motherboard.

 

[Slowlearner]

Received the ps and mb from Dell today. Replaced the power supply and carefully hooked everything and damn thing fired up right away. So I will be returning the mb monday. I was worried that it may the I/O assembly and I was not sure I could replace that myself.

I was certain that the ps was okay as the fan spun with the paper clip short. So I examined it carefully and yes while the fan spins there no power in some the pins, so it is dead. For the first time I have looked a Dell ps carefully, while it has the same dimensions as the ps in a Antec NSK 4480B, it has 3 slots that slide on matching brackets in the case. I would say it would possible to to use satndard, i.e. non Dell power supplies. I just didnt want to take a chance and the price of 85$ is a bit pricey for 308W ps.

 

[robisbell]

slowlearner, always check the PSU whenever you have any issues, 90-99% of them are all power related.

 

[jackschmittusa]

I cannot agree that 90-99% of computer issues are power related. I have fixed hundreds of issues going back to 386s and I would not even venture that power was the issue in the majority of cases. Have too many dead hds and optical drives, dead nics, bad ram sticks, an occasional bad sound, video card, or mb; let alone the multitude of software/driver issues.

 

[robisbell]

I have worked on them since 8080's and the people that taught me worked on Univac,Mark-1, etc.. and they always told me the 1st thing to absolutely check is power, otherwise the device is a(in their case HUGE)large paperweight. all problems stem from pwer one way of the other and the PSU is the main way they get power. it's not failed me in 30 years, and unless overnight the computer industry goes to genetic computers, will be true in the morning and till they move to organic systems.

 

[jackschmittusa]

"all problems stem from pwer one way of the other"

Yup, driver issues are power related.

Faulty caps are power related.

Dirty lasers in optical drives are power related.

ESD damage is power related.

HD bearing failure is power related.

Improper jumper settings are power related.

Improper bios settings are power related.

Faulty data cables are power related.

Need I go on?

Your statement is completely without merit.

 

[myocardia]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Faulty caps are power related.

Well, at least you were right on 7/8, Jack.

 

[jackschmittusa]

My understanding of the faulty cap problems was poor dielectric used in construction, unsuitable to design specs.

 

[Slowlearner]

jackschmittusa

I have been mothering 50 odd pcs for the last 7 years and the only problem that recurs year after year are hard drive failures. Yes I have had bad caps, memory dying, motherboard shorted, nics stop blinking, occasionaly ps stops working. But these are infrequent even rare. But hd failures are a given. The constant refrain at AT forums is buy a better power supply << this not borne out facts.