Need NVMe SSD / UEFI / PEX 8747 specialist!

[Feardis]

Hello everyone,

I have questions that I hope some experts around here will be able to answer!

I'm on the verge of buying the Gigabyte Z97X-Gaming G1 in replacement for a ASRock Z97 Extreme9 graciously "lost in the mail" by Canada Post service.
I was looking for a mobo that has a PLX chip along with a second Sata controller support raid for a specific storage setup. The Gaming G1 offers the PEX and 2 x Marvel 88SE9172 raid 0/1.

First, the reason of the second raid controller, is to be able to run my Samsung 850 Pro as a main bootable SSD on the Z97 Sata port in AHCI mode while I would setup 2 x 4To in raid 1 configuration on the marvel.

It is stated on gigabyte websites that you can only enable raid on the marvel or the Z97 but not both, which is fine with me... I absolutely want my 850 Pro in AHCI mode.

Question1:
Does enabling RAID on the marvell will let me use AHCI on Intel's Sata ? I know for a fact that some motherboard (Older chipset though..) with extra onboard raid controller force the Intel's Sata in IDE mode. I absolutely want my Intel Z97 Sata in AHCI.

Question2:
Is the PEX chip ONLY usable for multi GPU/Card setup ? Let me explain more where I'm going with this... I'm planning for an eventual upgrade (Maybe 6 to 8 months from now) to use a PCIe NVMe SSD Gen3 4X... Most likely the upcoming Samsung SM951... With that in mind, would the Gigabyte Gaming G1 with its PEX chip be able to run a PCIe Gen3 16X graphic at full speed while running the PCIe NVMe SSD at Gen3 4X speed (Or even 2 graphics and the PCIe SSD at 8X / 8X / 4X) ?

Question3:
Would that PCIe NVMe SSD would be bootable ? This of course is assuming I would use a NVMe native OS support (Windows 8.1) with a full UEFI installation.

Question4:
This one is tricky.... If all scenarios above works, would using that main bootable PCIe NVMe Gen3 4X SSD force my Marvel RAID to be disabled ? I know that for some board (older chipset maybe ?) an additionnal controller or SSD in a PCIe slot disable any RAID possibility on Intel's Sata or other onboard RAID Sata controller. However I'm not quite sure if this has to do with having multiple raid controller on the same DMI Link (for instance, placing a raid controller or SSD on a Gen2 PCIe which is fed by the DMI link that also feed all other RAID Sata) or simply the system seeing multiple raid controllers... ? I plan to use my PCIe SSD on a Gen3 directly fed by the PEX linked to CPU.....

Bottom line, I'm hoping I can have my 16X graphic running full speed (or 2 at 8X, I'm considering this upcoming upgrade too...) along with a Win 8.1 bootable PCIe NVMe SM951 at full 4X Gen3 speed, along with my 4To raid 1 on the marvel chip.

Thanks for reading, and ty in advance for any useful response!
Regards,
Vince

 

[VirtualLarry]

If you need all of that PCI-E bandwidth, I would go X99, with a 5930K.

 

[Feardis]

Everything is purchased already.... I'm just, still, in the process of being refunded by Canada post for the lost mobo... So basically I'm missing a board....

X99 requires DDR4.. still I could probably return the DDR3 (I think I might be just under the 30days) but I also have my 4790K which is delided (Yah lol good luck trying to return that)

Anyhow, that is not answering any of my questions... I've read tons about the PEX8747 and the Z97 coupled with it is plenty enough bandwidth for my needs and I can totally live with the non noticeable added delay (-0.5 / -1%)

My questions is much more about technicality and functionality compatibility of using the stated specifics.... not the bandwidth capability

 

[Dahak]

Question1:
Does enabling RAID on the marvell will let me use AHCI on Intel's Sata ? I know for a fact that some motherboard (Older chipset though..) with extra onboard raid controller force the Intel's Sata in IDE mode. I absolutely want my Intel Z97 Sata in AHCI.

Yes, Marvell Raid, Intel AHCI, they are controlled independently

Question2:
Is the PEX chip ONLY usable for multi GPU/Card setup ? Let me explain more where I'm going with this... I'm planning for an eventual upgrade (Maybe 6 to 8 months from now) to use a PCIe NVMe SSD Gen3 4X... Most likely the upcoming Samsung SM951... With that in mind, would the Gigabyte Gaming G1 with its PEX chip be able to run a PCIe Gen3 16X graphic at full speed while running the PCIe NVMe SSD at Gen3 4X speed (Or even 2 graphics and the PCIe SSD at 8X / 8X / 4X) ?

Based on the manual, x16 goes from the CPU to the PEX chip and then from the PEX chip it will go either x16/x16 or x8/x8/x8/x8 depending on what slots are populated.
so based on the manual it would seem that the best way would be to put the GFX in the PCIEX16_1 which would run at x16 and the PCIe SSD in the PCIEX8_2 to run at card at x4

Question3:
Would that PCIe NVMe SSD would be bootable ? This of course is assuming I would use a NVMe native OS support (Windows 8.1) with a full UEFI installation.

Possible but cant confirm that as cannot confirm if the BIOS/UEFI supports it.
Win 8.1 yes, if the device says so Yes, BIOS/UEFI maybe?

Question4:
This one is tricky.... If all scenarios above works, would using that main bootable PCIe NVMe Gen3 4X SSD force my Marvel RAID to be disabled ? I know that for some board (older chipset maybe ?) an additionnal controller or SSD in a PCIe slot disable any RAID possibility on Intel's Sata or other onboard RAID Sata controller. However I'm not quite sure if this has to do with having multiple raid controller on the same DMI Link (for instance, placing a raid controller or SSD on a Gen2 PCIe which is fed by the DMI link that also feed all other RAID Sata) or simply the system seeing multiple raid controllers... ? I plan to use my PCIe SSD on a Gen3 directly fed by the PEX linked to CPU.....

Bottom line, I'm hoping I can have my 16X graphic running full speed (or 2 at 8X, I'm considering this upcoming upgrade too...) along with a Win 8.1 bootable PCIe NVMe SM951 at full 4X Gen3 speed, along with my 4To raid 1 on the marvel chip.

not from the look of it, the each of the marvel controllers are attached to a PCIe 2.0 x1 lane from the chipset.
The DMI link is only between the chipset and cpu, no other devices are connected to it

So provided that the UEFI supports the PCIe NVMe Boot support then I would say yes

 

[Feardis]

Thanks Dahak,

You pretty much confirmed what I though...
I believe the setup I want works

I'm in discussion with gigabyte for confirmation as well.

If this can help other members, they confirmed I can run graphic at 16X on PCIEX16_1 with PCIe SSD at 4X on PCIE16X_2 or PCIEX8_2 (Or 2 graphics at 16X / 16X with no PCIe SSD on PCIEX16_1 and PCIEX16_2 OR 16X / 8X / 8X with the same setup and have PCIe SSD on PCIEX8_2)

They also confirmed I can boot from the PCIe SSD lanes coming from the PEX. The bios fully supports it, as long as the OS supports it natively (Win 8.1 only for microsoft, I don't know wit other OS... heard some linux version supports it too)

I'm still waiting for their answer concerning my question #4. I'll post a reply with their answer.

 

[Dahak]

Thanks Dahak,

You pretty much confirmed what I though...
I believe the setup I want works

I'm in discussion with gigabyte for confirmation as well.

If this can help other members, they confirmed I can run graphic at 16X on PCIEX16_1 with PCIe SSD at 4X on PCIE16X_2 or PCIEX8_2 (Or 2 graphics at 16X / 16X with no PCIe SSD on PCIEX16_1 and PCIEX16_2 OR 16X / 8X / 8X with the same setup and have PCIe SSD on PCIEX8_2)

They also confirmed I can boot from the PCIe SSD lanes coming from the PEX. The bios fully supports it, as long as the OS supports it natively (Win 8.1 only for microsoft, I don't know wit other OS... heard some linux version supports it too)

I'm still waiting for their answer concerning my question #4. I'll post a reply with their answer.

good to know about the PCIe SSD Boot support.

For Questions #4, I will try to break it down and answer it as well, but it will be good to hear what Gigabyte says.

Question4:
This one is tricky.... If all scenarios above works, would using that main bootable PCIe NVMe Gen3 4X SSD force my Marvel RAID to be disabled ?

From what I can see in the manual, NO, as the two Marvel raid controllers come off the chipset and not the CPU.

I know that for some board (older chipset maybe ?) an additional controller or SSD in a PCIe slot disable any RAID possibility on Intel's Sata or other onboard RAID Sata controller. However I'm not quite sure if this has to do with having multiple raid controller on the same DMI Link (for instance, placing a raid controller or SSD on a Gen2 PCIe which is fed by the DMI link that also feed all other RAID Sata) or simply the system seeing multiple raid controllers... ? I plan to use my PCIe SSD on a Gen3 directly fed by the PEX linked to CPU.....

Yes some board will disable the addition controllers (Looking at Z97's) where they have the option of Sata Express or m.2 sata/pcie connector, which could disable the say additional raid controller on the board due to the limit of pcie lanes available in the chipset.

but because this board uses a PEX switch from the CPU to power all the x16 slots, you should not have any problem running everything at full speed. With all the other controllers enabled. Worse case would be all the x16 slots run at x8 mode.

 

[Feardis]

Ok so I got a reply from Gigabyte,

It seems I will have to forward my question to Samsung now... I knew that some single SSD use a sort of "raid set" within, but I didn't know about the shadow memory thing...

Does that make sense to you Dahak ?

Question: If I use a PCIe SSD specced at PCIe Gen3 4X like the Samsung SM951, would that force the marvel and/or the intel sata to be run in IDE or AHCI mode ? I would basicaly like to be able to boot from that PCIe SSD and use the onboard marvel to run a raid 1

Answer: You will need to check the specs on the SSD drive first, some of the PCIe ssd already configured in a raid set therefore it will utilizes Shadow memory so you will not have enough shadow memory to set the onboard controller to raid.

 

[Hellhammer]

Ok so I got a reply from Gigabyte,

It seems I will have to forward my question to Samsung now... I knew that some single SSD use a sort of "raid set" within, but I didn't know about the shadow memory thing...

Does that make sense to you Dahak ?

Question: If I use a PCIe SSD specced at PCIe Gen3 4X like the Samsung SM951, would that force the marvel and/or the intel sata to be run in IDE or AHCI mode ? I would basicaly like to be able to boot from that PCIe SSD and use the onboard marvel to run a raid 1

Answer: You will need to check the specs on the SSD drive first, some of the PCIe ssd already configured in a raid set therefore it will utilizes Shadow memory so you will not have enough shadow memory to set the onboard controller to raid.

They are referring to drive like OCZ RevoDrive 350, which is just multiple SATA 6Gbps SSDs sitting behind a PCIe RAID controller. The SM951 is a native PCIe with no RAID, although there is still no guarantee that it won't use more shadow memory.

 

[Feardis]

I just emailed Samsung about this...

Seriously it is so hard nowadays to have a simple email adress for support.
It always go through a website form to fill in personal infos along with choosing the product in a list...

And guess what, of course the SM951 is not there, but my 850 Pro is not even there yet! Damn... Anyway I selected just any product and specified in the message that I am referring to the M.2 NVMe SM951.

Let's see what they reply... They will probably have to forward the email a few times before someone knowledgeable gets to know the answer (If it ever gets there).

It's funny because I used their live chat feature... I've been transfered 2 times for reason: I am not trained for the samsung product you are referring to.... Not only that, they didn't know the product at all... They asked if I was referring to the SSD evolution kit... ? I was like... hmm what?? I had to send them a link.

Anyhow, I wouldn't be surprised if I get a negative answer

 

[VirtualLarry]

Answer: You will need to check the specs on the SSD drive first, some of the PCIe ssd already configured in a raid set therefore it will utilizes Shadow memory so you will not have enough shadow memory to set the onboard controller to raid.[/B]

I think I can decipher that for you. "Shadow memory", at least in the olden days, was RAM allocated in the range of 000A0000-000FFFFF, for hardware stuff, basically. So if the PCI-E SSD allocates memory address space, depending on how much it allocates, it may not allow the onboard controller or add-on onboard controller's RAID ROM to allocate and initialize.

 

[Feardis]

Thank you Virtual, this make sense.

Here is Samsung answer;

Dear Customer,
Thank you for contacting Samsung Support regarding your concerns and inquiries. We apologize for any inconvenience this may be causing you. The product you want information for is not yet available, which means that there is no available information for customers at this time. The model number which you are referring to is an OEM product, which as you mentioned previously is meant for OEM companies. If Samsung releases a similar end user/retail product, the final version may or may not be completely different in all aspects. We would recommend waiting for the product to be officially released before making any major decisions on a future product .Thank you again for contacting Samsung Support and have a good day.

In the meantime; here's a review I have found on the Z97 Extreme6 stress testing the Z97 bandwidth limits simultaneously with 4xIntel S3500 in raid 0 and the XP941 on the ultra M.2 slot using 4X Gen3 lane from the CPU

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/samsung-xp941-z97-pci-express,3826-3.html

I'm more and more thinking that there would be no problem!
Still that does not confirm specifically for the SM951 but I'm getting more confident now...

 

[kenshinco]

Samsung sm951 definitely faster than xp941 but as of now you can't get it up to 2150/1550mb/s read/write as rated even if you install it on pcie 3.0.
The drive will get bottlenecks by AHCI mode.
We have to wait for the motherboard manufacture to release UEFI NVMe boot support to get sm951 full potential.

 

[Shmee]

I noticed in another thread about the sm951, no NVMe support is claimed, at least yet. I was wondering the same thing, about the future of NVMe, and it seems to me that both the motherboard, and the drive may require future firmware updates, from what I gathered at least.

You may want to hold off, on the sm951 drive at least, until NVMe support is announced officially. By that time there may be a better drive out with better specs and more mature NVMe support.

 

[mrpiggy]

The only thing I will contribute for thoughts is that "Marvell's" RAID0/1 with hard drives was not that fast when I last tested it (could be better now, but I doubt it?). By not that fast, I mean it wasn't fast enough to warrant the hassle of setting up a couple slow hard drives on it in RAID0 or 1 versus setting up the same two drives on the same Marvell controller in AHCI mode and simply using Window's built-in software RAID; especially if simply a storage or media drive. Since all your PC's perceived performance comes from the system drive (which is an SSD in your case), it nicer to have an easily portable (at least to another Windows computer) software RAID with the slow hard drives; which do nothing to contribute to overall system speed feeling on the secondary controller. If the HD's are Windows "software" RAID0/1 they can be hooked up to any SATA controller in either IDE or AHCI mode in any other Windows machine and still be recognized as a RAID once Windows loads.

An easy pure software RAID with HD's and media files is still fast enough to stream over your network, and no current CPU is going to have any issues with the tiny extra load. Any software that you need true speed out of should be on your SSD anyway. Plus it removes a possible RAID mode BIOS incompatibility problems that you might encounter by installing another RAID type device in a PCIe slot.