Need to get a bigger car...

[oleguy]

Edited: A few things have changed since I first posted... see my last comment on the subject on 6/5

I'm not a big car person. I tend to view cars as more of a necessity of adulthood rather than something to lust after. However, if I'm going to spend my hard-earned cash on something, I would like it to tick as many boxes as possible since I intend to keep it for its serviceable lifetime.

As our other car (my wife's) is a 5-door Focus, it handles the around town things pretty well while also coping with her daily commute to maintain a 31 mpg average. But, we have already learned that it's just big enough to get the two of us and a week's worth of food and clothing up to a family cabin. As children are a distinct possibility in the next couple of years, that's not going to cut it.

Here are my acceptance criteria:

• My commute is stop-and-go for the next 18 months while construction goes on
• Winter driving in both less plowed neighborhood streets and slick early morning commutes
• Ground clearance for minor off-road (rougher dirt roads with washboard and rutting)
• 1,500 lbs or more towing capacity for a future fishing boat
• Aforementioned space for a week worth of stuff while still maintaining space for a pet carrier and two kids
• Mainstream pricing; I know there are some nicer entry-level luxury cars out there, but I would rather keep this below $35,000 is at all possible

In looking around, the Mazda CX-5 caught my eye as having good MPG while having decent cargo space and towing up to 2,000 (gives an extra 500 lbs for passengers and cargo). I also have looked at the Suburu Forrester and Outback.


Any opinions would be welcome. I just don't have as much time as I would like for this. I still have some time, though I'm not sure my poor car is going to make it to the next winter... or if it does, I wouldn't want to drive it when it's -10F in the morning.

 

[nerp]

Due to your towing needs, you need a Dodge Durango. ;D

 

[Jumpem]

Forester or Outback.

 

[tortillasoup]

Prius V, Camry Hybrid, any and all Toyota Hybrids should be candidates.

Is there any reason why you need a NEW vehicle and not just a new to you vehicle?

 

[oleguy]

Is there any reason why you need a NEW vehicle and not just a new to you vehicle?

Not necessarily, though if I follow through on my intent to keep the car for its entire serviceable life, the fewer miles it has the better.

The Focus we have now was purchased almost exactly two years ago as a used 2012 with 35K miles on it. With my wife's commute, its weekend around-town use, and as the only option for our three to five 500 to 700 mile round trips a year, it's already up to 65K miles. And assuming kids, the grandparents are 50-100 mile round trips. So I'm estimating that every 12K to 15K on the odometer of a used car will mean a year less of serviceable life.

So new isn't required, but it's something that has to be weighed against what a model year or two older is in terms of both price (Suburus have insane resale value for the first few years, and the general used market's tight supply in NA) and what kind of redesigns might have happened between that used model and the new one, and if those features (generally MPG) are worth it.

Warranty is also nice, especially after our Focus transmission experience.....

 

[oleguy]

Due to your towing needs, you need a Dodge Durango. ;D

My uncle has kept his Durango going, against all odds. He's got it up in Canada 6 months of the year, taking a 3 mile route between the highway and his house that is a rough mining road that turns into a logging road that is then nothing more than two ruts in the forest.

I should have also said that I'm not a huge Dodge fan, despite (or because of) owning a '99 Intrepid for the last 10 years.

 

[tortillasoup]

Not necessarily, though if I follow through on my intent to keep the car for its entire serviceable life, the fewer miles it has the better.

The Focus we have now was purchased almost exactly two years ago as a used 2012 with 35K miles on it. With my wife's commute, its weekend around-town use, and as the only option for our three to five 500 to 700 mile round trips a year, it's already up to 65K miles. And assuming kids, the grandparents are 50-100 mile round trips. So I'm estimating that every 12K to 15K on the odometer of a used car will mean a year less of serviceable life.

So new isn't required, but it's something that has to be weighed against what a model year or two older is in terms of both price (Suburus have insane resale value for the first few years, and the general used market's tight supply in NA) and what kind of redesigns might have happened between that used model and the new one, and if those features (generally MPG) are worth it.

Warranty is also nice, especially after our Focus transmission experience.....

You know why I like to buy used? Because not only does it save money on depreciation, but you can also avoid vehicles with known issues. Like I have a 2007 ES350 and had to replace the transmission at 60K miles due to a known "shift flare". Yeah sure the warranty helped but it also could have hurt me because if I were to drive a lot of miles per year, by the time the transmission failed I would likely have failed out of warranty. However, if I had just waited a few years prior to purchasing, I would have spotted that issue, and either only purchase cars that I KNOW have had that issue dealt with or just avoid that model year all together.

Buying anything "new" means I get to play guinea pig and hope that I spot all the issues before the warranty expires.

If you buy a Prius V or a Camry Hybrid, we know what issues those vehicles will have as they're already fairly mature vehicles so there is a great benefit to buying used and avoiding the depreciation. I mean so what if I lose 10-50K miles, on a vehicle that gets driven over 200K miles, that's not a whole lot. Here is a question, is 50K miles of service life really worth $15K? I don't think so! I recommend the Toyota Hybrids because those vehicles get excellent fuel economy and they'll have a long service life, well exceeding 200K miles. I'd take a used Toyota Hybrid that has been vetted with good service records over a brand new any other vehicle aside from a Tesla because I know those vehicles will last a very long time. The transmission design in the Toyota Hybrids is such that it produces very little wear compared with other traditional transmissions....especially in stop and go driving.

 

[BUTCH1]

Few vehicles have decent tow rating anymore, manufacturers are basically saying "buy a truck".

 

[Knavish]

...any other vehicle aside from a Tesla because I know those vehicles will last a very long time. The transmission design in the Toyota Hybrids is such that it produces very little wear compared with other traditional transmissions....especially in stop and go driving.

Since when is a Tesla considered the pinnacle of reliability? It's a great car, but I thought they were quite average. I expect the electric motor in any BEV to be very reliable, but basic physics dictates the battery will degrade with both age and usage. Also, all the random gadgets (like infotainment and retractable door handles) are known problem areas that simpler systems would never exhibit.

 

[Herr Kutz]

Few vehicles have decent tow rating anymore, manufacturers are basically saying "buy a truck".

Pretty much. Although the Jeep Cherokee v6 (4500lbs) and GMC Terrain/Chevy Equinox v6 (3500lbs) have some okayish tow ratings if you want to stay in the same class as a CX-5 and get more than a 1500-2000lbs capability.

 

[MongGrel]

Used Ford F-150 Crew Cab?

I'm saying that and my wife is still driving an old Jeep Cherokee 4.0 HO Sport.

Just a suggestion.

Still drive a Mazda 3 Hatch as a daily myself.

The MPG on those trucks probably aren't the best I guess.

Varies I imagine.

I know the Cherokee itself isn't that fuel efficient, we used to have two.

A CX-5 might not be bad, if it can tow OK.

 

[tortillasoup]

Since when is a Tesla considered the pinnacle of reliability? It's a great car, but I thought they were quite average. I expect the electric motor in any BEV to be very reliable, but basic physics dictates the battery will degrade with both age and usage. Also, all the random gadgets (like infotainment and retractable door handles) are known problem areas that simpler systems would never exhibit.

For a $70K vehicle, the Tesla is going to be the most reliable of the bunch, even if you include the battery. Obviously a car without all those features will be more reliable which is why the Model 3 will become the most reliable vehicle on the road, assuming you can get it without those extra features.

 

[MongGrel]

For a $70K vehicle, the Tesla is going to be the most reliable of the bunch, even if you include the battery. Obviously a car without all those features will be more reliable which is why the Model 3 will become the most reliable vehicle on the road, assuming you can get it without those extra features.

For 70K, I wouldn't call it practical.

Even cheaper, I wouldn't call it practical, yet.

 

[tortillasoup]

For 70K, I wouldn't call it practical.

Even cheaper, I wouldn't call it practical, yet.

No kidding but if you're going to spend $70k on a vehicle, I wouldn't choose any other vehicle. If I were OP, I'd keep my budget to around $20k, not much higher than that. Tesla Model S is a very practical vehicle to own if it's already paid off.
In my area, you can buy a 2013 Camry Hybrid XLE with 38,000 miles for $21k at a dealership!


$35K is a lot of money to put down on a car, so having that "$35K" limit is a bit much. You can get a Prius V for around $20k with relatively low miles which will save you around $10K vs. new.

 

[Yuriman]

You know why I like to buy used? Because not only does it save money on depreciation, but you can also avoid vehicles with known issues. Like I have a 2007 ES350 and had to replace the transmission at 60K miles due to a known "shift flare". Yeah sure the warranty helped but it also could have hurt me because if I were to drive a lot of miles per year, by the time the transmission failed I would likely have failed out of warranty. However, if I had just waited a few years prior to purchasing, I would have spotted that issue, and either only purchase cars that I KNOW have had that issue dealt with or just avoid that model year all together.

Buying anything "new" means I get to play guinea pig and hope that I spot all the issues before the warranty expires.

If you buy a Prius V or a Camry Hybrid, we know what issues those vehicles will have as they're already fairly mature vehicles so there is a great benefit to buying used and avoiding the depreciation. I mean so what if I lose 10-50K miles, on a vehicle that gets driven over 200K miles, that's not a whole lot. Here is a question, is 50K miles of service life really worth $15K? I don't think so! I recommend the Toyota Hybrids because those vehicles get excellent fuel economy and they'll have a long service life, well exceeding 200K miles. I'd take a used Toyota Hybrid that has been vetted with good service records over a brand new any other vehicle aside from a Tesla because I know those vehicles will last a very long time. The transmission design in the Toyota Hybrids is such that it produces very little wear compared with other traditional transmissions....especially in stop and go driving.

Pretty much this. Hybrids are win.

I have an older (2000) 5MT Honda Insight with close to 180,000 miles, and I just finished pulling a close-to-1500lb trailer 2000 miles over 3 days. I averaged close to 60mpg at 65mph despite several rapid 4000+ feet elevation changes in my route. I wouldn't hesitate to pull 1500 in my in-laws' 2014 Prius, or even do a bit of off-road driving (as long as it isn't too soft). They live in rural Vermont and have no problems getting around in winter, even living on unpaved, heavily rutted and often flooded roads.

They're not powerful or beautiful, but from a utilitarian perspective, they're incredible vehicles.

 

[oleguy]

Too many to respond to, so I'll just set it here and hope people see it.

For the hybrid, I have no problem with that in concept. I have friends who have a Prius V something, and it seems to hold an okay amount of stuff, though not much more than the Focus we already have. The flat floor in the back is nice when you put down the seats, though that might make taking a 2nd kid along a bit tougher. As far as towing, I would be concerned (maybe unfounded) that by having an aftermarket hitch installed, any warranty I had would be invalidated since towing is not recommended by Toyota.

As far as new vs. used, every time a powertrain changes, like it did with our Focus, there is a chance that you will be a guinea pig. Our Focus was used with 35K miles on it, and while there were some reports of balky transmissions, it didn't seem to be that frequent. Turns out it was more common and we've already had ours fixed twice, with the powertrain warranty now extended to 100K. We bought a certified pre-owned one, so the original warranty was still valid at least.

For the trucks, I need better MPG than what that would get. Also, even with an extended or crew cab, I've seen people struggle with putting a kid in a car seat. Maybe if there were such a thing as a compact truck with extended cab and short bed, I might be interested. But the ones out there (Chevy Colorado) still seem to trade MPG for rather excessive towing capacity.

Does anyone here have experience with the newer crossover SUVs (like the CX-5, Escape, etc.)? I've driven an early Escape, and the fact that it was identical to the Focus for the driver was irritating, as I tend to find my wife's car a bit cramped.

 

[tortillasoup]

Well as it turns out, the Focus Wagon and the Prius V ARE comparable in size with the Focus wagon 2 cubic feet larger in the cargo hold. So the question really becomes, why do you think this vehicle wouldn't suffice? It's a pretty large vehicle, comparable to a 240 Volvo Station wagon which has had no problem with raising children in.

Do you live in a rural area where you don't drive much? I can't really tell, either you make a major trek into the city to buy supplies and head back or you're complaining about the few times you go on a family trip and you think you won't have enough room for all the luggage (roof rack!).

Really if you want to get more cargo room, the only suggestion I can make is either a Highlander hybrid or something like a Sequoia/Suburban other huge ass gas guzzling vehicle. But if this vehicle isn't being used to capacity on a regular basis, then it's a waste as are most vehicles.

Maybe you can get a cheap suburban and have it just for those handful of treks where you need all that cargo carrying capacity.

 

[desy]

I was just going to say Highlander
I got a Flex cause it was bigger and I was moving from a Minivan
W two kids its always full and having the 3rd row if needed is a nice bonus.
With towing you kinda always want more vehicle than the minimum to get the job done.

 

[MongGrel]

Pretty much this. Hybrids are win.

I have an older (2000) 5MT Honda Insight with close to 180,000 miles, and I just finished pulling a close-to-1500lb trailer 2000 miles over 3 days. I averaged close to 60mpg at 65mph despite several rapid 4000+ feet elevation changes in my route. I wouldn't hesitate to pull 1500 in my in-laws' 2014 Prius, or even do a bit of off-road driving (as long as it isn't too soft). They live in rural Vermont and have no problems getting around in winter, even living on unpaved, heavily rutted and often flooded roads.

They're not powerful or beautiful, but from a utilitarian perspective, they're incredible vehicles.

Really.

I'm not that familiar with them at all, but that is pretty impressive.

 

[BUTCH1]

Pretty much this. Hybrids are win.

I have an older (2000) 5MT Honda Insight with close to 180,000 miles, and I just finished pulling a close-to-1500lb trailer 2000 miles over 3 days. I averaged close to 60mpg at 65mph despite several rapid 4000+ feet elevation changes in my route. I wouldn't hesitate to pull 1500 in my in-laws' 2014 Prius, or even do a bit of off-road driving (as long as it isn't too soft). They live in rural Vermont and have no problems getting around in winter, even living on unpaved, heavily rutted and often flooded roads.

They're not powerful or beautiful, but from a utilitarian perspective, they're incredible vehicles.

You kind got lucky in that the drive-train in an Insight or Prius are not rated for towing very much if any at all.

 

[jlee]

Keep in mind towing capacity is not cargo capacity; i.e. 2000lb tow capacity doesn't mean 1500lbs trailer plus an extra 500lbs in the car.

http://howto.curtmfg.com/Pages/index.cfm.25.html

 

[Yuriman]

You kind got lucky in that the drive-train in an Insight or Prius are not rated for towing very much if any at all.

I wouldn't pull 1500lbs behind a Honda CVT, but I see no reason not to with the 5MT, and Toyota's automatic transmissions are much more robust.

 

[tortillasoup]

I wouldn't pull 1500lbs behind a Honda CVT, but I see no reason not to with the 5MT, and Toyota's automatic transmissions are much more robust.

The only concern I'd have with the Prius is heat affecting the transmission. But with regular oil changes on the transmission, due to it being a planetary design, it really should be extremely reliable. Typically what causes a prius transmission to fail is a bad grommet on the oil pickup tube causing suction of air and or old/burnt transmission fluid never being changed in its service life. Otherwise, there are no clutches, bands, synchros, etc. in the Prius transmission that would cause it to fail. Prius transmission is much like a differential gear with two oil cooled electric motors and a gasoline motor all connected together. (It's all gears) But yeah a Manual transmission is also very capable of towing because once you've released the clutch, there isn't much wear going on.

 

[waffleironhead]

highlander

 

[oleguy]

Well as it turns out, the Focus Wagon and the Prius V ARE comparable in size with the Focus wagon 2 cubic feet larger in the cargo hold. So the question really becomes, why do you think this vehicle wouldn't suffice? It's a pretty large vehicle, comparable to a 240 Volvo Station wagon which has had no problem with raising children in.

I live in the north and both our families have cabins out on the lakes. This last summer we took our first long trip to one of the cabins with the Focus (a little over a week) and that car was packed full. Because the cost and selection of groceries is limited up there, we tend to pack our own to save money and satisfy particular dietary needs. But even if we didn't do that, a few weekends ago we took a trip to see friends and bring back the baby stuff they didn't need anymore, and the stuff one would need for an infant or toddler also takes a fair amount of room.

My wife takes packing a car as a personal challenge, so when she says, "We can't possibly pack anymore in the car," I believe her. The roof rack is certainly an option, though, especially as the bikes go on a tailgate rack. Might have to look into that option for at least the less temperature sensitive items (like my tackle and some other stuff).

I should also point out that when ever I travel, even for a couple of days, I have a carry-on sized bag that has to go with me for medical reasons, and the item within said bag is pretty large and cannot be broken apart for more efficient packing.