Negro Leagues' statistics will be incorporated into Major League Baseball’s historical records.

[dainthomas]

I never quite understood why people need to feel their race/ethnicity is better than others. It's not like you choose or earn it. For every great white baseball player, astronaut, or scientist, there's a Dahmer, Manson, or Epstein. I don't claim the success of the former, or treachery of the latter simply because we share a similar amount of melanin.

It's generally people who haven't done or earned anything, but at least they have that.

 

[manly]

When McGuire himself states he used steroids, I’ll take him at his word. Of course, he majorly downplayed their effects, but did admit steroid use. btw…steroid use was never about increased hitting power (red herring introduced by the steroid cheats) but the much quicker recovery times. Lots easier to hit when your musculature doesn’t hurt worse each day from “abuse”…

And I’m quite sure McGuire, et al, know exactly the difference between steroids and OTC crap that has steroid-like activity. Hell, they were injecting the crap for years…

McGwire comes clean, admits steroids use

Mark McGwire finally came clean Monday, admitting he used steroids when he broke baseball's home run record in 1998.

www.espn.com

McGwire only fessed up in 2010 because he wanted to be a hitting coach for the Cardinals. We both believe his ultimate confession; I was referring to what zin said that what McGwire used in 1998 was not even an anabolic steroid. You're right that MLB didn't have a PEDs policy during McGwire's career. Some may feel that he should therefore be in the HoF, but I don't.

I don't know how well you recall the late 1990s, but whatever PEDs they used definitely increased power (or at least HR rates). Remember the Orioles Brady Anderson? He clubbed 50 HRs one season. Arizona's line-drive hitter Luis Gonzalez smashed 57 HR in 2001, but was never implicated in PEDs. Like I said, most good players in this era probably used something, whether it was to build strength or aid recovery, or both.

McGwire is a great example of a guy who claimed he used steroids solely for recovery, and that seems highly believable. Dude was a beast.

 

[sdifox]

LoL doping has always been ahead of detection. Why should richer dopers get a pass?

 

[APU_Fusion]

McGwire only fessed up in 2010 because he wanted to be a hitting coach for the Cardinals. We both believe his ultimate confession; I was referring to what zin said that what McGwire used in 1998 was not even an anabolic steroid. You're right that MLB didn't have a PEDs policy during McGwire's career. Some may feel that he should therefore be in the HoF, but I don't.

I don't know how well you recall the late 1990s, but whatever PEDs they used definitely increased power (or at least HR rates). Remember the Orioles Brady Anderson? He clubbed 50 HRs one season. Arizona's line-drive hitter Luis Gonzalez smashed 57 HR in 2001, but was never implicated in PEDs. Like I said, most good players in this era probably used something, whether it was to build strength or aid recovery, or both.

McGwire is a great example of a guy who claimed he used steroids solely for recovery, and that seems highly believable. Dude was a beast.

My issue with this is there are so many in the hall of fame already who used peds from the 60s through the 90s, whether uppers or steriods. I also have issue with players making it to the hall in the bonds/clemons era who pretty obviously were juicing. Seems like Bonds and Clemons are the scapegoats.

 

[akugami]

If not skin color, it'll be stars on bellies vs no stars.


Uh-oh can o worms opened.

I've always preferred to categorize people as the Vulcan Salute capable, and the Vulcan Salute incapable.

 

[skyking]

The early retirement forum I frequent has a 2024 baseball thread in it.
Somebody posted that they woke up to new all time record holders and linked an NPR article.
Soon enough somebody was whining about how this was wrong, how would the players from each league have fared against each other, piss moan whine.
I copypasta'ed my story about sister and mom from here over there and said how thrilled I was. He STFU rather than go down that trail with me. So far it has been thread death.

 

[iRONic]

WTG, thread killah. ☠️

 

[skyking]

What the hell, I figure go on and try to explain how this "seperate but equal" professional league thing works again. I'm all ears man. He did not take the bait.

 

[zinfamous]

When McGuire himself states he used steroids, I’ll take him at his word. Of course, he majorly downplayed their effects, but did admit steroid use. btw…steroid use was never about increased hitting power (red herring introduced by the steroid cheats) but the much quicker recovery times. Lots easier to hit when your musculature doesn’t hurt worse each day from “abuse”…

And I’m quite sure McGuire, et al, know exactly the difference between steroids and OTC crap that has steroid-like activity. Hell, they were injecting the crap for years…

McGwire comes clean, admits steroids use

Mark McGwire finally came clean Monday, admitting he used steroids when he broke baseball's home run record in 1998.

www.espn.com

yes, I understand. my memory is a bit spotty at times. I just recall that at the time, when I really payed attention to baseball--which probably extended only a bit after the congressional steroid nonsense--that McGwire was being pilloried, after retirement, for at the time only ever admitting to using Andro, was it? which was then banned, but completely legal in MLB up until his retirement.

I understand later that he admitted to much more (maybe at those hearings, I guess--imagine that, if any of those dudes had lied to Congress the shit they would have faced. Today, it seems like all you have to do is be a legislator and you can lie to and ignore Congress all you want, with utter impunity. How low we've come).

I of course understand the health problems with these drugs and endorsing them in a way by being a pro athlete...but I also really don't give a shit? I'm all for the "enhance your way all you want, and let the best doper/cyborg/meta-human win" among all the other enhanced athletes that they are also competing with. meh.

Like with Lance Armstrong--it was never a mystery that professional cycling was universally considered a den of dopers. So what? He cheated by using Epo or whatever? ...uh, so did all of his competitors. So to me it was still an even playing field.

 

[zinfamous]

McGwire only fessed up in 2010 because he wanted to be a hitting coach for the Cardinals. We both believe his ultimate confession; I was referring to what zin said that what McGwire used in 1998 was not even an anabolic steroid. You're right that MLB didn't have a PEDs policy during McGwire's career. Some may feel that he should therefore be in the HoF, but I don't.

I don't know how well you recall the late 1990s, but whatever PEDs they used definitely increased power (or at least HR rates). Remember the Orioles Brady Anderson? He clubbed 50 HRs one season. Arizona's line-drive hitter Luis Gonzalez smashed 57 HR in 2001, but was never implicated in PEDs. Like I said, most good players in this era probably used something, whether it was to build strength or aid recovery, or both.

McGwire is a great example of a guy who claimed he used steroids solely for recovery, and that seems highly believable. Dude was a beast.

roids don't increase power like that, as mentioned earlier, they significantly aid in recovery: this means less fatigue, more effective games played throughout the season, more potential for hitting homeruns. roids don't affect bat speed, timing, and that ever-important eye--all of which are vastly more important than the density of muscle behind that swing.

that being said, people often say the above in defense of "roids don't really improve HR rate because of this!" which I also disagree with--obviously it does, but not for the reason most people would assume. It's about "increasing opportunity to do so," not "increasing individual hit power."

Though I think you're hinting at that. McGwire also suffered heavily from spasms--not sure if that was a result of the drugs, if not tangentially, or if the roids actually helped in that recovery as well?

 

[zinfamous]

My issue with this is there are so many in the hall of fame already who used peds from the 60s through the 90s, whether uppers or steriods. I also have issue with players making it to the hall in the bonds/clemons era who pretty obviously were juicing. Seems like Bonds and Clemons are the scapegoats.

I think I mentioned this earlier, but what about how nearly all of them up and through the 30s and later were just admitted, direct cheaters? altering gear, spit balls and scratched balls, tarred balls, corked bats, etc?

No one has done anything about this. Why is their cheating still acceptable? Or, at least, why is cheating now not accepted?

I get why people dislike Bonds...but the dude was just fucking amazing, even well before he went into beast HR smasher dude. I don't really recall anyone between Mays and Bonds that were comparable to those dudes. True 6 tool players (if that exists?)

 

[zinfamous]

What the hell, I figure go on and try to explain how this "seperate but equal" professional league thing works again. I'm all ears man. He did not take the bait.

As phenomenal as Jackie Robinson was, I recall he wasn't at all considered the best player in the Negro league (Buck O'Neil at that time, maybe? Granddad always talked about him).

Jackie was just deemed the most suitable to deal with that kind of unrelenting pressure that he would face, on top of being supremely talented compared to the rest of white baseball. And they were right, and Jackie was just fucking amazing to handle the hatred and unrelenting death threats to him and his family. A true saint, really.
And I imagine a lot of the Jim Crow racists that really paid attention to this stuff already understand that--at least those in power that didn't want black players allowed into the league. They knew that the best of the Negro League was just miles ahead of the product that they had long been defending.

 

[skyking]

(Buck O'Neil at that time, maybe? Granddad always talked about him).

Go up thread and read about my mom meeting Buck at the 2001 All Star Game.

 

[manly]

roids don't increase power like that, as mentioned earlier, they significantly aid in recovery: this means less fatigue, more effective games played throughout the season, more potential for hitting homeruns. roids don't affect bat speed, timing, and that ever-important eye--all of which are vastly more important than the density of muscle behind that swing.

that being said, people often say the above in defense of "roids don't really improve HR rate because of this!" which I also disagree with--obviously it does, but not for the reason most people would assume. It's about "increasing opportunity to do so," not "increasing individual hit power."

Though I think you're hinting at that. McGwire also suffered heavily from spasms--not sure if that was a result of the drugs, if not tangentially, or if the roids actually helped in that recovery as well?

If you believe guys like Brady Anderson or LuGo hit 50 HRs in a season just because their bodies recovered better, I have a bridge to sell to you. Talent, recovery, staying healthy and opportunity certainly are important, but PEDs did help batters hit more HRs. A lot more. Your boy Barry Bonds went from a ~ 40 HR hitter to 73 near the tail end of his career. It's not like Bonds was injury-prone before he converted to the house of PEDs; he was already a HoF caliber player. IIRC McGwire hit 70 and Sosa 66 in their famous duel because pitchers never stopped pitching to them. OTOH Bonds hit 73 even though he was getting pitched around a lot (this grew to absurd amounts in the next couple seasons thereafter) by season's end.

No what I was hinting at is your memory was lacking, because neither of us is a huge baseball fan. McGwire was spotted with andro in his locker, and that is the only thing he ever fessed to until 2010. Andro was an OTC supplement at the time, so it probably wouldn't even be banned if MLB did have a PEDs policy in 1998. Some MLBers did lie to Congress (most infamously Rafael Palmeiro), and McGwire actually took intense criticism for refusing to answer questions.

McGwire hit 49 HRs as a rookie; he had all the talent to break Maris' single season record. But what he needed was PEDs to keep his body right long enough to do it. All I'm saying is that argument doesn't apply to a lot of other guys in the 'roids era whose HR rates shot up like a rocket.

I'm actually OK if ultimately the stain of PEDs was removed from the Hall of Fame consideration. But TBH that would be a little like giving 7 Tour de France trophies back to Lance Armstrong because everyone in cycling was cheating at the same time. (In reality, it's unknowable how even the playing field was in either sport.)

 

[IronWing]

I can't muster a solitary f' to give about PED usage in sports. Sports is entertainment. If PED using athletes are more entertaining than non-users, the market is speaking. The righteous windbags in the suits that run MLB can shut their useless, whore mouths.

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

I don't know when "PEDs just help with recovery" became a thing. I've even heard that on our sports radio stations to downplay the effectiveness of steroids. Like something spread by PED users. No shit it helps with recovery. That means you can lift harder and more frequently to build muscle. Being stronger means being able to swing a heavier bat at the same swing speed. That fly ball caught on the warning track is now 10 rows in the stands. Even grounders and line drives have higher exit velo making it more likely to find gaps for base hits.

If PEDs weren't that effective it wouldn't have been as prevelant as it was. Probably even more so in the minors when desperate aging ball players were hoping for a chance at the bigs.

 

[Meghan54]

I don't know when "PEDs just help with recovery" became a thing. I've even heard that on our sports radio stations to downplay the effectiveness of steroids. Like something spread by PED users. No shit it helps with recovery. That means you can lift harder and more frequently to build muscle. Being stronger means being able to swing a heavier bat at the same swing speed. That fly ball caught on the warning track is now 10 rows in the stands. Even grounders and line drives have higher exit velo making it more likely to find gaps for base hits.

If PEDs weren't that effective it wouldn't have been as prevelant as it was. Probably even more so in the minors when desperate aging ball players were hoping for a chance at the bigs.

Steroids can certainly build muscle in a long term thought out prescribed exercise routine. But that’s not happening during the actual game playing season…more the off-season

During season, it’s purely for recovery and maintaining muscle mass. Baseball players are rarely lifting weights on a daily/mostly daily basis as is required for building muscle mass. Their off-time is mostly resting with a few practices thrown in.

The rapid recovery prowess of steroids on the body is why Lance Armstrong used them during the Tour de France…never felt as tired as his competitors. And to think I wasted one summer going to watch a couple of stages in 2001 to root for him. Still got a t-shirt from it ( the Alp d’Huez ride that year.). Now wear it cutting grass and doing maintenance on my vehicles.

 

[manly]

My issue with this is there are so many in the hall of fame already who used peds from the 60s through the 90s, whether uppers or steriods. I also have issue with players making it to the hall in the bonds/clemons era who pretty obviously were juicing. Seems like Bonds and Clemons are the scapegoats.

couldn't have happened to two nicer guys. Just out of curiosity, who's obvious? Jeff Bagwell?

I don't know when "PEDs just help with recovery" became a thing. I've even heard that on our sports radio stations to downplay the effectiveness of steroids. Like something spread by PED users. No shit it helps with recovery. That means you can lift harder and more frequently to build muscle. Being stronger means being able to swing a heavier bat at the same swing speed. That fly ball caught on the warning track is now 10 rows in the stands. Even grounders and line drives have higher exit velo making it more likely to find gaps for base hits.

If PEDs weren't that effective it wouldn't have been as prevelant as it was. Probably even more so in the minors when desperate aging ball players were hoping for a chance at the bigs.

PEDs weren't cheap AFAIK. I think a fair argument could be made that most minor leaguers probably could not afford the good stuff, and so the MLBers who used PEDs probably did block some borderline players from ever getting a fair shot at the big leagues. It's obviously unknowable.

Steroids is just one of many PEDs that were in use by MLB players; it's pretty absurd to cling to a notion of "it only helped with recovery." The shredding of records seems to suggest otherwise, but OK that isn't absolute proof. When slap-ball hitters become powerful sluggers, I'm fairly convinced it's not just because they felt less tired.

I don't think Lance Armstrong primarily used steroids to enhance performance. Cyclists used EPO and other forms of blood doping. To be "fair" to Lance, all the elite cyclists of that time were doping, and it's fairly clear the teams were in charge of it. It wasn't just rogue cyclists doing it on their own volition. I'm not arguing it was a fair field, because all of the best teams had the most resources to deploy on PEDs. But for cycling in particular, I wouldn't just dismiss that argument out of hand for the early 1990s into the 2000s when it was a PEDs wonderland.

 

[skyking]

dunno why you PUDS keep talking PEDS in the blending of the stats topic.