Nehalem: AMD's design!

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dmens

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2005
2,274
959
136
Originally posted by: Sohcan
Honestly, there's not much architecturely new that has come out of the industry in the last 15 years...just stuff that was developed in mainframes and supercomputers from the 60s through early 90s that has simply taken time to filter down into mainstream microprocessors through increased integration.

P6 and P4? i realize out-of-order has been done long before P6 and oddities like trace cache and PRF were x86 driven rather than globally applicable architectural concepts, but saying there's been nothing new in 15 years is a 300 mile orbital view of the field.
 

solog

Member
Apr 18, 2008
145
0
0
Originally posted by: Markfw900

What does my knowledge of who made the 8088 have to do with me being a mod ?

Nothing I guess. Just figured that is the kind of info a cpu mod would know.


Originally posted by: Markfw900
And I was elected by everyone here. Also, we don't like insulting people on this forum.


Didn't know you were elected and I didn't mean it to be insulting. It was just a question.





 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
Maybe Demens can help me out here. Intel worked on a cpu that never made it to market. It had serial connect. IMC and other features. I believe that Rambus memory was the reason it didn't fly. Not sure. I think it even had gpu on die.

Dec brought serial connects to the cpu first . So I believe intel couldn't have copied AMD. I don't no who did IMC first.

Fact is none should care about who did what first. But who does it best. Some caveman invented the wheel . Yet I got some nice wheels and in no way could I give captain caveman credit for my wheels.
 

zsdersw

Lifer
Oct 29, 2003
10,505
2
0
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Maybe Demens can help me out here. Intel worked on a cpu that never made it to market. It had serial connect. IMC and other features. I believe that Rambus memory was the reason it didn't fly. Not sure. I think it even had gpu on die.

Timna, perhaps?

 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Fact is none should care about who did what first. But who does it best. Some caveman invented the wheel . Yet I got some nice wheels and in no way could I give captain caveman credit for my wheels.

But what then would happen to that parasite of modern society? I speak of the corporate lawyer and the patent troll IP companies?

You got caveman wheels and aren't paying residuals?

Sounds to me like captain caveman could use some better representation so you pirates stop ripping off his IP:laugh: No wonder he hates Gieco so much.
 

Sohcan

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,127
0
0
Originally posted by: dmens
Originally posted by: Sohcan
Honestly, there's not much architecturely new that has come out of the industry in the last 15 years...just stuff that was developed in mainframes and supercomputers from the 60s through early 90s that has simply taken time to filter down into mainstream microprocessors through increased integration.

P6 and P4? i realize out-of-order has been done long before P6 and oddities like trace cache and PRF were x86 driven rather than globally applicable architectural concepts, but saying there's been nothing new in 15 years is a 300 mile orbital view of the field.

Eh, maybe I'm just a cynic because I focused on architecture in grad school and had switched to circuit design by the time I finished because architecture opportunities in the industry are rare. But I'm definitely not the only person that feels this way...keeping in mind that I consider "new" as something dramatically different than before. The really new stuff in the Pentium Pro and K5 applicable to out-of-order (the reorder buffer and decoupled execution/micro-op decode) came out of academia years before (from my alma mater, U Wisconsin)...as did the trace cache, and many people would argue it's not a great idea.

I guess there have been a few interesting things lately...simultaneous multithreading has become pretty pervasive, and the load speculation in Core 2 is a big deal, but again the later came out of academia a long time ago. And it was standing-room-only at ISSCC in February (I was there) when Sun presented Rock, which is the first commercial processor to attempt out-of-order instruction retirement. But in the grand scheme of things, these are all kind of minor...the 70s through mid 90s brought huge increases in performance due to architecture and microarchitecture advancement, but since then performance has mostly come through frequency and increased integration.

edit: I don't want to imply that microprocessors are boring, on the contrary I love what I do. But IMO the challenge has shifted from inventing something completely new and novel to choosing the approriate concepts and methods from the vast established wealth of knowledge, and applying them to the design in an efficient manner.
 

Makaveli

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2002
4,802
1,265
136
Some very knowledgeable Cpu members in this thread.

I enjoyed the read..... Fan boys included!

;-)
 

Elias824

Golden Member
Mar 13, 2007
1,100
0
76
well intel came up with X86, so everyone had copied everything from them...

I think it dose come down to how it is applied, not just who came up with what first. Using a IMC on a diffrent architecture isnt just coping what AMD did.
I do have to give AMD respect though for implementing it so well on their previous cpu's.
 

KeypoX

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2003
3,655
0
71
Intel was the inventor of the microprocessor and is the leader in microprocessor technology.

 

bradley

Diamond Member
Jan 9, 2000
3,671
2
81
X86 did not originate from Intel. It was invented by Austin Roche at a now defunct Texas-based company called CTC (Computer Terminal Corporation.) They also invented the first personal computer, the Datapoint 2200.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
59
91
Originally posted by: bradley
X86 did not originate from Intel. It was invented by Austin Roche at a now defunct Texas-based company called CTC (Computer Terminal Corporation.) They also invented the first personal computer, the Datapoint 2200.

http://www.computerworld.com/a...asic&articleId=9111341

And yes, I do agree, Intel is on a rather glorious mission to rewrite history where it can to ensure it is seen as the progenitor of mankind's transition into the digital age as much as the world will allow them to claim.

Intel and Noyce's claim to inventing the integrated circuit was hotly contested by TI's Jack Kilby (whom I knew personally). But even TI was on its own glorious path of trying to document a paper trail of rolling out the first DRAM's and first to the silicon transistor in the early 50's.

So we can't really blame Intel though, this is human nature and is reflected by every nation's government. Every victor gets to write into history how noble and pure as driven snow they were when attacked by the villian of the story
 

JPForums

Junior Member
May 1, 2008
2
0
0
QPI and HT are similar technologies in the sense that they are both point-to-point high speed serial interconnects. Because they provide near identical benefits, you could say Intel stole one out of AMD's playbook. The truth of the matter is, AMD probably wishes Intel would've used HT instead of their proprietary redesign. Though they are very similar technologies at a high level, the architectural details are different. Each was developed for a similar but different purpose.

Something to keep in mind:

AMD doesn't own HT (originally named LDT). They are part of a group that developed the technology as a standard interconnect technology for many types of devices. Because of this, HT was designed to work well as both CPU interconnects and I/O interconnects. If Intel were to adopt HT (at least for I/O), chipset manufacturers would need only make a single chipset for both AMD and Intel processor. You'd still have different sockets, but it is conceivable that you could use Intel chipsets for AMD processors and vice versa. (Hybrid systems with both Intel and AMD processors might be possible as well, but it would be hard or impossible to make them cooperate efficiently if at all).

Intel, on the other hand, developed QPI, first and foremost, to speed up its CPU to CPU communications. I/O connectivity seems like a secondary consideration and is left to the third party developer. (as in ambiguous and non-standardized or more flexible to put a different spin on it)


What I consider the largest advantage of CSI over HT has a downside. The advantage is that by bypassing the arbiter initially and making read requests directly to the peers, they can achieve lower latency (on average) peer to peer communications. This method is risky, but Intel has built in the necessary circuitry to stop any flawed transactions. I/O devices, however, seem to favor the arbiter system, thus a bridge chip, with a fairly sophisticated design if you want to preserve QPI's lower latency, becomes necessary. HT's ability to lane split combined with their arbiter system gives it the ability to directly connect I/O devices to the CPU, assuming HT interconnects. I'm not really sure if QPI supports lane splitting, but it is harder for I/O devices to support its communication scheme directly. Connection speed can always be increased with the version of the technology, so I don't really see this as an advantage for either. However, if backwards compatibility is required, you'd have to stick with the communications scheme of the previous version. (Hence, latency wouldn't change)

I can't see a the additional latency of a bridge chips affecting most I/O devices, since they are, relatively speaking, slow anyway. So overall, I think Intel made a good trade-off. However, if AMD can get partners to bring HT connected GPU (desktop/workstation) or HT bridged high speed external devices in which lower latency is desirable (think higher speed fibre-channel, Serial rapid I/O, etc.) to the market, then they may be able to claim an advantage. Unfortunately for AMD, video cards are currently designed to hide the extra latency associated with bridged connectivity. Also, outside of special purpose high speed data recoding systems, I can't think of many applications that would require a low latency external connection.

My understanding of QPI is incomplete, but my points should still be valid. I'll read more in depth about it when I have both the time and proper documents.
 

hans007

Lifer
Feb 1, 2000
20,212
17
81
Originally posted by: aigomorla
Originally posted by: SlowSpyder
I'm pretty sure Nehalem is Intel's design.

lol..

i think what he's trying to say is like how SLI is really 3dFX's idea, but nvidia only expanded on it.

nvidia's SLI isnt even really interleaved lines.

they just used the term SLI since they bought 3dfx.

i think if you wanted to accurately describe nvidia sli, it would be something like.... nvidia every other page on a different card.


not every other line.


also amd didnt invent the imc.

intel had it on the 386SL to save power.
 
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