Netflix, Hulu may have to wait 4 years for TV shows

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poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
126
They see what the market wants, and the response is a middle finger to the customer base.

Because what the market wants is to pay content providers less money for more choices and more convenience. Not every new option allows for more profits for the media companies.

The video industry basically doesn't want Netflix to do to it what Napster and iTunes did to the music industry. Even though digital music sales are significant sources of income, overall the music industry makes MUCH less then it did at the peak of the CD age in the late 1990's:



If the music industry would have known that was going to happen maybe they never agree to let Apple sell singles for a dollar. Maybe they build a pile of little walled music gardens to give consumers digital without giving us the convenience that really killed CDs. Maybe they try to invent a time machine and kill Shawn Fanning before he was ever born Terminator-style. Who knows, their problem today is the horses are out of the barn and people won't go back to buying CDs like they used to.

If video providers keep giving Netflix and Hulu good content, which is more convenient to watch then remembering to set the cable DVR, why would people pay for cable? The answer is they won't, so the cable companies and video providers will do everything they can to drag their feet on the path towards modern distribution via streaming.

Looking at that graph, can you blame them?
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
I'm not sure how I'm not making a good point. This is the norm across the country. I even cited relevant data. Anywhere prices are better than median right now consider yourself lucky! You just happen to have competitive forces that work to bring prices into reality.

That being said, your latter point is completely valid. People have had enough and are starting to do something about it.
Ahh, I guess you're right about that - there are too many areas where cable has a monopoly on Internet access - and they wield that monopoly to almost force customers to get cable.
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
Because what the market wants is to pay content providers less money for more choices and more convenience. Not every new option allows for more profits for the media companies.

The video industry basically doesn't want Netflix to do to it what Napster and iTunes did to the music industry. Even though digital music sales are significant sources of income, overall the music industry makes MUCH less then it did at the peak of the CD age in the late 1990's:

Or maybe it was a bubble that finally popped.

Now you've also got content providers selling content directly to consumers. The money that was worked into the price to serve the distributor is no longer there. The result is more efficient.
Sort of like the Kardashev scale for measuring a civilization's power consumption: Making your consumption more energy-efficient can reduce your ranking.
Making media distribution more efficient will reduce the total dollars, but it benefits society by eliminating things that add no value. I guess that's not particularly comforting if you're in the business of offering that valueless service.




If the music industry would have known that was going to happen maybe they never agree to let Apple sell singles for a dollar. Maybe they build a pile of little walled music gardens to give consumers digital without giving us the convenience that really killed CDs. Maybe they try to invent a time machine and kill Shawn Fanning before he was ever born Terminator-style. Who knows, their problem today is the horses are out of the barn and people won't go back to buying CDs like they used to.

If video providers keep giving Netflix and Hulu good content, which is more convenient to watch then remembering to set the cable DVR, why would people pay for cable? The answer is they won't, so the cable companies and video providers will do everything they can to drag their feet on the path towards modern distribution via streaming.

Looking at that graph, can you blame them?
Self-interest, excessive greed, I guess some of both. It just feels like they need to look long-term/big-picture. Doing this will just piss off customers and delay their efforts to find a real solution that allows them to profit. It's not like cable companies have a good public image now anyway. This is just another line on the list.
Upper management will surely remain intact anyway if there's a restructuring to accommodate the new market environment. They're probably looking only at the short-term price of their precious stock options.
 

TwiceOver

Lifer
Dec 20, 2002
13,544
44
91
and.... ?

$8/mo is less than many people spend at chipotle for a burrito + a drink.

FWIW my cable co charges $15/ea for DVR so $30 for the 2 that were in my house.

That's pretty excessive IMO. Then I look at my utility bill and there are 2x $10 charges for each of my power meters and that really pisses me off.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,616
3,471
136
This isn't 1950, most Americans have more than one tv. The average American home has roughly three tvs in it in 2015. At $8 a month per TV that is $24 a month just for boxes, when most streaming services are under $20 a month.

The value proposition for cable is way out of whack for a lot of people.

I've had the genie with Direct since it came out. One DVR and it connects to every other tv in the house with full functionality. That's worth five or ten bucks or whatever the fee is.

Although I do have a tv in the kids' play room that just has a bluray player with Netflix hooked up.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
Translation: neither Netflix or Hulu is willing to give us enough money for an exclusive agreement, so we're still trying to figure out our options on how to best monetize this property
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
smart move on their part IMO. of course people will complain because they get less shit for free when they want it. entitlement mentality doesn't surprise me though, everyone thinks they deserve everything for free/cheap as shit.

How is it free, idiot? Netflix pays creator for content, users pay them to access content. Nothing is free.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,181
5,646
146
Because what the market wants is to pay content providers less money for more choices and more convenience. Not every new option allows for more profits for the media companies.

The video industry basically doesn't want Netflix to do to it what Napster and iTunes did to the music industry. Even though digital music sales are significant sources of income, overall the music industry makes MUCH less then it did at the peak of the CD age in the late 1990's:



If the music industry would have known that was going to happen maybe they never agree to let Apple sell singles for a dollar. Maybe they build a pile of little walled music gardens to give consumers digital without giving us the convenience that really killed CDs. Maybe they try to invent a time machine and kill Shawn Fanning before he was ever born Terminator-style. Who knows, their problem today is the horses are out of the barn and people won't go back to buying CDs like they used to.

If video providers keep giving Netflix and Hulu good content, which is more convenient to watch then remembering to set the cable DVR, why would people pay for cable? The answer is they won't, so the cable companies and video providers will do everything they can to drag their feet on the path towards modern distribution via streaming.

Looking at that graph, can you blame them?

First, just look at that graph. Notice there's something off about it, like how there's a hug bump during the 90s? They literally were found guilty of price fixing (and paid pennies for how much they screwed people over) on CDs. People need to stop listening to the music industry's version of events. They're using straight up bullshit logic. They keep citing 90s revenue without adding how revenue was that high because of their anti-competitive practices. If they had not fought digital distribution so much, its possible we wouldn't have seen revenue drop off like that either. And now, fact is, paying for streaming music is often the best option as then you don't have to worry about the cost of managing a music collection yourself, and you reap benefits (like recommendations of similar music). Plus you can send that content to just about any device now (versus the music/movie industries' horseshit belief that you should be ponying up for copies for every device).

If they hadn't been so adamant about trying to maintain pricing schemes that are decades old, they likely could have leveraged streaming into being better for them as well.

Their issues are all their own faults.

Translation: neither Netflix or Hulu is willing to give us enough money for an exclusive agreement, so we're still trying to figure out our options on how to best monetize this property

This! Sounds more like they're not getting the money they think its worth, and we already know what happens when they think that (they start trying to figure out some way of fucking people over to try and get them to play ball, which big surprise they haven't found out that just ends badly for them).

Hey, look at that they're trumpeting the TPP because it would basically enable them to coerce governments into policing things for them!
 
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ControlD

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2005
5,440
44
91
FWIW my cable co charges $15/ea for DVR so $30 for the 2 that were in my house.

Yep. I recently bought a Tivo box for just this reason. My Time Warner HD DVR box was something like $15 a month, but then they also tack on another $12 for the DVR service! $27 a month for their crappy, slow DVR.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
Yep. I recently bought a Tivo box for just this reason. My Time Warner HD DVR box was something like $15 a month, but then they also tack on another $12 for the DVR service! $27 a month for their crappy, slow DVR.

Oh my. I didn't know there was a charge for the box and then a separate one for the server. That's crazy. I'm guessing there's even a convenience charge for the lube to make it more comfortable.

Uhg. The only way to win is to not play.
 

TwiceOver

Lifer
Dec 20, 2002
13,544
44
91
Uhg. The only way to win is to not play.

That's basically it. There is no "one side is better" it all comes down to personal preferences and how much you are willing to take it from your providers. Some are better than others and sadly it's a region by region decision. One person's time is worth different to them compared to the next person. For the content I was getting, it wasn't worth my time to watch and spend that kind of money.

When I chose not to play my cable co didn't even try. No retentions, not even asking why. They didn't care at all.

Luckily I'm also on an uncapped service. If they were to institute a cap I'd jump ship fast.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
126
First, just look at that graph. Notice there's something off about it, like how there's a hug bump during the 90s? They literally were found guilty of price fixing (and paid pennies for how much they screwed people over) on CDs. People need to stop listening to the music industry's version of events. They're using straight up bullshit logic. They keep citing 90s revenue without adding how revenue was that high because of their anti-competitive practices.

It isn't really bullshit logic, by 1999 they had the tiger by the tail. They had teenagers paying for $20 CDs just to listen to a hit single. Even if you didn't like their business practices at the time you can't argue that the industry revenue has been decimated by a shift to digital music.

If they had not fought digital distribution so much, its possible we wouldn't have seen revenue drop off like that either.

I don't think that is fair, they didn't have the competency to create a digital market like iTunes that was viable. Lets remember until Apple invented the iPod digital music was worthless for many people because it was locked to a computer. The iPod allowed that music to play in a car, or on a workout. But the industry didn't invent the iPod even though it helped determine their destiny. They couldn't have invented the iPod, they didn't know how.

And now, fact is, paying for streaming music is often the best option as then you don't have to worry about the cost of managing a music collection yourself, and you reap benefits (like recommendations of similar music).

Maybe it is the best option for CONSUMERS, but I can cite one article after another where artists or industry executives claim that they can't live on Spotify prices. We don't even know if the Spotify model will work longterm, it isn't a hugely profitable company so far.

Plus not all of the problem is money, some of the problem is leverage and control. The fact that consumers look to iTunes or Spotify as their sources of music (instead of Sony or RCA records or whoever) is just as big of a problem to the music industry as the revenue lost. They no longer control their own destiny because when iTunes or Spotify want something (like a lack of DRM for example) they don't have the leverage to say no. They have to hope that these technology companies make decisions that allow them to stay in business. Spotify is now bigger than they are:



That is a huge shift from 1999 when music companies controlled distribution and could shove CDs down teenage throats via top 40 radio and MTV.

Video content producers actually have been better about responding to streaming because they didn't want to have to turn to someone else to fix it for them like the music industry turned to Apple. Hulu is basically a collaboration between some of the large providers, while others like HBO and Showtime have made their own services.

What we will NOT see, what we will never see as long as they can help it, is ALL the content being under one service like you get with a Spotify. Instead we will end up with a dozen walled gardens- each for every major content maker- so each can control the distribution and have a business relationship with consumers directly. Consumers might prefer Netflix to be their one-stop-shop for video, but the honest truth is Netflix in 2022 will have WAY less content on it than Netflix in 2012 did before they took streaming seriously.

If they hadn't been so adamant about trying to maintain pricing schemes that are decades old, they likely could have leveraged streaming into being better for them as well.

Their issues are all their own faults.

A lot of it was their fault and I am not saying I feel bad for them or anything. I don't look back in time and feel bad about buggy makers who had their industry ruined by cars.

The only point I was trying to make is that what happened to the music industry is a warning sign of what will come to the video producers if they aren't careful. Unlike the music industry or the buggy industry they can see how it will all play out and they are doing everything they can to either slow down that process or stop it. And they are doing a good job honestly with services like Hulu that give the consumers just enough to placate us, but not enough to take apart their older and more profitable business model of TV distribution.
 

CountZero

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2001
1,796
36
86
This.

I've heard good things about Gotham and thought I might be able to catch up on Netflix between seasons, but obviously I won't be able to do so. I did this with Walking Dead and Breaking Bad, just to name two fairly recent examples, and once I got caught up I watched them weekly (well, at least until I got bored with TWD). I'm not going to buy the BR discs nor buy Hulu so Gotham will most likely be yet another TV series I will never see.

As for torrents...I am over 40 and am well aware of what torrents are but it's a little bit of a hassle and I don't generally hook my computer up to the TV to watch it (and with a family of 5 I don't watch on a laptop either). It's not that I don't know how to do all these things, it's just not worth my time.

Yeah, they just don't get it.

1-2 months before the new season started they should have put the entire first season up on Netflix and/or any of the other services and started pushing that "Catch up on the first season of Gotham and get ready for the second season, Rise of the Villains!". You catch people up and they watch live (or near it, at on demand/dvr speed) and you build a larger audience and get more word of mouth spread.

They still, eventually, released it but too late for anyone to easily catch up to the first season and keep up with the current season.

Gotham isn't alone in this, many other shows do the same thing with the last season only available well into the latest season completely pushing off a potential portion of their audience from catching up.

This move is pointless, no one that cut the chord will be pulled back in because you withheld content for years. Instead your show will be increasingly irrelevant as people can't even catch up for the big episodes (season, series finales) and won't talk about it on social media (and thus you won't trend).
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,819
29,571
146
can't blame them, but I don't see how this is going to limit piracy or simply just encourage the actual content producers to leave the networks and go over to Netflix.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,570
12,874
136
It isn't really bullshit logic, by 1999 they had the tiger by the tail. They had teenagers paying for $20 CDs just to listen to a hit single. Even if you didn't like their business practices at the time you can't argue that the industry revenue has been decimated by a shift to digital music.

I don't think that is fair, they didn't have the competency to create a digital market like iTunes that was viable. Lets remember until Apple invented the iPod digital music was worthless for many people because it was locked to a computer. The iPod allowed that music to play in a car, or on a workout. But the industry didn't invent the iPod even though it helped determine their destiny. They couldn't have invented the iPod, they didn't know how.
I don't think that's an accurate way of stating it--they really had no particular reason to do so. Everything was peaches and cream with the status quo as far as they could tell. They had enough money that if they thought it would make them more money, they could have invested in digital music.
Maybe it is the best option for CONSUMERS, but I can cite one article after another where artists or industry executives claim that they can't live on Spotify prices. We don't even know if the Spotify model will work longterm, it isn't a hugely profitable company so far.
AFAIK artists have been making more from merchandise and touring than album sales for a good while... can't be arsed to care about middlemen.
Plus not all of the problem is money, some of the problem is leverage and control. The fact that consumers look to iTunes or Spotify as their sources of music (instead of Sony or RCA records or whoever) is just as big of a problem to the music industry as the revenue lost. They no longer control their own destiny because when iTunes or Spotify want something (like a lack of DRM for example) they don't have the leverage to say no. They have to hope that these technology companies make decisions that allow them to stay in business. Spotify is now bigger than they are:



That is a huge shift from 1999 when music companies controlled distribution and could shove CDs down teenage throats via top 40 radio and MTV.
Of course, it was not long after 1999 when MTV really started to run straight into the ground (as far as actually turning it on and seeing music videos air in their entirety), I wonder if things would have played out differently if they'd handled that better. Now they've made themselves pretty much culturally irrelevant... I'm pretty sure if I asked my twelve year old what she thinks about MTV, she'd probably ask what I'm talking about.
 

adamantine.me

Member
Oct 30, 2015
152
4
36
www.adamantine.me
Are any of those shows even worth watching anyway? I watched the pilot for The Flash, it didn't really stand out to me. It was like drinking a mass produced IPA - it tries to be something it isn't, and just falls awkwardly short of being cheap enough to buy and good enough to spend on. If I want the real thing, there are still plenty of Marvel/DC movies I haven't seen.
 

Poulsonator

Golden Member
Aug 19, 2002
1,597
0
76
Are any of those shows even worth watching anyway? I watched the pilot for The Flash, it didn't really stand out to me. It was like drinking a mass produced IPA - it tries to be something it isn't, and just falls awkwardly short of being cheap enough to buy and good enough to spend on. If I want the real thing, there are still plenty of Marvel/DC movies I haven't seen.
The Flash is the best live-action DC anything in my opinion. It's incredible what they accomplished in 23 episodes of season 1. Season 2 has been pretty good as well, although topping S1 is a tall order.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,616
3,471
136
The Flash is the best live-action DC anything in my opinion. It's incredible what they accomplished in 23 episodes of season 1. Season 2 has been pretty good as well, although topping S1 is a tall order.

So the obvious solution to bolstering second season ratings is to prevent millions of Netflix users from watching season 1 to see if they like it.

I can think of several shows I've started watching on Netflix and eventually caught up and started watching on network TV.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
Food for thought:

TimeWarner could just say "fuck netflix/hulu" and move everything they got to HBO Now. It's only what, $6 more than Netflix and one can argue TW could fill up HBO Now with enough content to compete against Netflix/Hulu.
 

natto fire

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2000
7,117
10
76
Shouldn't the title reflect that this is only a VERY small section of shows. I mean, ATOT posters seem to like the shows in question, but I don't consume TV shows like the average ATOT poster.

There were some neat arguments about regional cable TV and internet pricing. I pay $25 out the door for 30mbps internet (thank you WOW) and $9 for Netflix.

This is all I need to stay entertained. My mom dropped her cable TV service after the sports networks coerced her cable company to raise rates, and she was stuck with a $105 bill for channels she never watched.

People that need to see the latest sports match up should have to pay more because those are the ones who keep coming to the cable companies with their pockets out.

They try to bundle it to distribute the costs the sports conglomerates are extorting from cable companies .

Luckily I don't live in California, and my internet out here in flyover country is pretty cheap.
 

Ham n' Eggs

Member
Sep 22, 2015
181
0
0
...but I don't consume TV shows like the average ATOT poster.

I never did figure out how people go about consuming TV shows and consuming music. I watch shows and listen to music, I don't ingest them and break down their components and discard the leftovers out of my nether regions.

Movie & Music industry execs have done a spectacular job at subtly brainwashing everyone into thinking they "consume" media because it taps into the actual definition which implies enjoy & destroy. This consume lingo is designed to inflate the $ value that media has in people's minds.

/end non sequitur
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,599
19
81
FWIW my cable co charges $15/ea for DVR so $30 for the 2 that were in my house.

That's pretty excessive IMO. Then I look at my utility bill and there are 2x $10 charges for each of my power meters and that really pisses me off.
Or some places that have a "New Customer Uptake Fee."

"Goddammit, new customers are so expensive. I hate all these assholes who keep trying to pay us for service. See if you can discourage them."
 

natto fire

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2000
7,117
10
76
I never did figure out how people go about consuming TV shows and consuming music. I watch shows and listen to music, I don't ingest them and break down their components and discard the leftovers out of my nether regions.

Movie & Music industry execs have done a spectacular job at subtly brainwashing everyone into thinking they "consume" media because it taps into the actual definition which implies enjoy & destroy. This consume lingo is designed to inflate the $ value that media has in people's minds.

/end non sequitur

So you are saying you have never read a forum before? Because the defecation process is what ends up here. Not trying to cut you down, but the unadulterated shit is what these posts are made of.

Most of us are not hipster enough to have never watched a TV show produced by "big Hollywood". You can continue to troll here, but keep in mind, most of us here have been brainwashed by an exec or two to watch an entertaining TV show. Regardless of the nomenclature used to describe watching it, you are a tool.
 

Ham n' Eggs

Member
Sep 22, 2015
181
0
0
So you are saying you have never read a forum before? Because the defecation process is what ends up here. Not trying to cut you down, but the unadulterated shit is what these posts are made of.

Most of us are not hipster enough to have never watched a TV show produced by "big Hollywood". You can continue to troll here, but keep in mind, most of us here have been brainwashed by an exec or two to watch an entertaining TV show. Regardless of the nomenclature used to describe watching it, you are a tool.
simmer down, don't take what I said personally. I must be too old and out of touch because I don't know what a hipster is. As to what shows I watch, good ones. I like Game of Thrones, TWD & kinda sorta that one with Claire Danes where she's a CIA agent (but that one tries a bit to hard to blow the us is the greatest flavor koolaid up my ass)... and I like Sci-fi & fantasy movies, and Jean-Luc Picard as the captain.

But, at least I make an effort not to be an assume-too-much fool. tool is better than fool.
 
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