Netflix - Making a Murderer

[Don Vito Corleone]

Is anyone watching the new Netflix documentary series Making a Murderer? Trailer is at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxgbdYaR_KQ

I am through three episodes and find it really gripping. I would certainly recommend it to fans of Serial, The Jinx, and similar types of documentaries (if you are such a person, I would also highly recommend the Staircase and the Paradise Lost films - they are great and heavily influenced Making a Murderer).

A few observations:

Spoiler

I have worked in criminal justice quite a bit over the years, and honestly was shocked by the measures to which the state went to prosecute Avery for the original rape. The investigation was not just corrupt, it was so badly conducted that at some point it looks more as though they intentionally framed him than that they were merely incompetent. Really awful. I can't imagine being on the wrong end of such an abuse of the justice system. They really really screwed him over.

I am still only now getting into the murder itself. That being said, it appears all but certain that someone in the Avery junkyard compound committed the murder, and he would certainly seem like a logical suspect. (Though that is a complicated question - on the one hand he has a history of violence and alleged weird sexual behavior - on the other hand, he seemed to be in a happy relationship and it's hard to understand why he would abruptly have committed such a terrible crime.)

I will be curious whether we are ever offered any real alternative suspect. If the only alternative posited is that the police committed the murder and placed evidence in the Avery compound to try to frame him, I will have a very hard time swallowing that as a feasible theory. That being said, it looks very likely that the police manipulated evidence to build a case against Avery for the murder, and their interrogation of his teenage nephew was obviously very very flawed.

It occurs to me that a lot of what has happened to Steven Avery, both in the rape and murder cases, flowed from the fact that he and his family are such outsiders, and frankly have such limited mental capacity. It's just much easier to manipulate and frame people who are not smart. The whole thing really makes me wonder how often the authorities engage in these kinds of shenanigans to get someone they believe is guilty.

Please do use spoiler tags if discussing case details - I doubt many people have finished the show yet, as it just became available on Friday.

 

[ImpulsE69]

The wife and I were up late watching this. We are only on episode 4 but WOW we kept saying, ok one more episode even though we wanted to go to bed. It is just crazy. We don't know the story/outcome so we are still trying to guess whats going on and if it was a frame job or not.

So many things that they have on tape that seems was or should be illegal. Not only that, some of the tactics they used I always thought were just things in the movies. It does not shine the police in a good light at all....regardless of the outcome.

Highly recommend as well.

 

[OutHouse]

Interesting, a guy i work with was just talking about this a hour or so ago. ill have to watch it. sounds interesting.

 

[zinfamous]

marked for reminder. Thanks for the recommendation. Our finishing Justified last night has left a large, depressing wound in the pit of our souls.

I hope this short series on a murder investigation can mitigate that.

 

[thestrangebrew1]

Holy crap this is crazy! Thanks for sharing this OP. Will be starting the series tonight!

 

[TwiceOver]

Thanks OP. Added to my list.

Big fan of true life murder mystery. Excellent trailer.

 

[Artdeco]

Listened to the podcast, interesting story,

Spoiler

Terrible that he was wrongly convicted, but I think he's guilty of the 2nd murder

Radiolab podcast: http://www.radiolab.org/story/278180-reasonable-doubt/

 

[OutHouse]

just watched the first episode. serious WTF. that sheriff and DA should be in Jail along with the state AG

 

[MongGrel]

Will be checking this one out.

I thought The Jinx was fantastic.

 

[JasonCoder]

just watched the first episode. serious WTF. that sheriff and DA should be in Jail along with the state AG

This. I am one ep in and thought the same thing.

 

[Rakehellion]

What is it about?

 

[JasonCoder]

What is it about?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=making+a+murderer

 

[ImpulsE69]

Just finished binge watching the rest. Mix feelings really about it all, but I've not been so emotionally charged by something for some time. The documentary does seem defense sided, however the tapes that they do show and the trial do point to something more than just a normal process of conviction. There are too many things that just don't make sense in the grand scheme of things.

Spoiler

I can see how they could convict Steven given that we are shown more than what the jurors were, but I still can't get over that Brendon was convicted - and on more counts than Steven was. Then to see that his attorney and investigator basically plotted against him to further the case against Steven. You can see how emotionally connected the investigator is to Theresa's family (toward the end) and how biased he and others were toward the Avery family.

I am open enough to consider that maybe he did indeed do it, but I really don't think the nephew was involved at all and that the legal system there is corrupt and they should all be out of jobs. There are just too many things that make you go "did they just do/say that", but at the same time it really felt like many key points were just dropped by the defense and never explored further.

Such as:
The phone messages
The roommate
The cop who called in the license (for no apparent reason) 3 days prior
Who opened the blood and why
The 3 sites where bones were found
While Steven obviously isn't a genius, one can assume he was smart enough to try to hide evidence. Why is the car, bones and keys all just kind of sitting there in the open, but there's no blood anywhere.
No one EVER brings up the chains or tie downs supposedly used and why they never come up - at first I assumed this was because they all had dismissed Brendons statements as false, but then they go and convict him of exactly what he 'confessed' to
They never did any tests on the mattress or sheets (that they showed)
The ending statements by the prosecutor stating "Steven is the only one present and responsible for this murder" - but then that never comes up BY THE SAME EXACT GUY in Brendons case.

It goes on and on.

 

[OutHouse]

thumbs up for the spoiler tags.

 

[Rakehellion]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=making+a+murderer

So what is the show about?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

I am now through Episode 5.

Spoiler

Among the cast of villainous characters, the one I find hardest to understand, and most despicable, is Len Kachinsky, Brendan Dassey's attorney.

I have been a lawyer for 17 years and done a fair amount of criminal defense, including getting a full acquittal in a first-degree murder case. I am not generally one to criticize other attorneys, but his representation of Brendan was just shocking to me. He not only failed to advocate for Brendan or believe him (I find this hard to understand given the obviously coercive nature of the interview in which Brendan confessed), he had his investigator systematically break Brendan down, obtain a written confession, give the confession (which would constitute a privileged communication) to the police, then let him sit for a multiple-hour interview by investigators without being present. This is a case in which he represents a developmentally disabled teenager accused of rape, murder and kidnapping.

It was unconscionable for him to let his client give that interview without counsel present. There is no ethical justification for that in my view. It's one thing to permit a client to give an interview like that as part of a plea deal, after he has been convicted, but allowing it before there was a conviction, or even a plea deal in place, was nothing but harmful to Brendan (and Steven Avery) and served no legitimate purpose. Even if, for whatever reason, he felt the interview would be helpful, because it would engender good will to Brendan and help in sentencing (a view I would consider deeply misguided considering the very serious nature of the charges against Brendan and the lack of any evidence against him other than his confession), there was no reason to do it without counsel present.

I am just flabbergasted by what happened here. Kachinsky should really be disbarred. At best, he's stupid and incompetent. At worst, he is in the pocket of the prosecutor and not sincerely interested in helping his clients, despite having a sworn duty to do so. It is very likely (I haven't watched all of the show so don't know how Brendan's story ends) that his behavior led to, minimally, decades in prison for his functionally-retarded, 16-year-old client. I honestly wish there were a mechanism for him to be prosecuted.

 

[ImpulsE69]

I am now through Episode 5.

Spoiler

Among the cast of villainous characters, the one I find hardest to understand, and most despicable, is Len Kachinsky, Brendan Dassey's attorney.

I have been a lawyer for 17 years and done a fair amount of criminal defense, including getting a full acquittal in a first-degree murder case. I am not generally one to criticize other attorneys, but his representation of Brendan was just shocking to me. He not only failed to advocate for Brendan or believe him (I find this hard to understand given the obviously coercive nature of the interview in which Brendan confessed), he had his investigator systematically break Brendan down, obtain a written confession, give the confession (which would constitute a privileged communication) to the police, then let him sit for a multiple-hour interview by investigators without being present. This is a case in which he represents a developmentally disabled teenager accused of rape, murder and kidnapping.

It was unconscionable for him to let his client give that interview without counsel present. There is no ethical justification for that in my view. It's one thing to permit a client give an interview like that as part of a plea deal, after he has been convicted, but allowing it before there was a conviction, or even a plea deal in place, was nothing but harmful to Brendan (and Steven Avery) and served no legitimate purpose. Even if, for whatever reason, he felt the interview would be helpful, because it would engender good will to Brendan and help in sentencing (a view I would consider deeply misguided considering the very serious nature of the charges against Brendan and the lack of any evidence against him other than his confession), there was no reason to do it without counsel present.

I am just flabbergasted by what happened here. Kachinsky should really be disbarred. At best, he's stupid and incompetent. At worst, he is in the pocket of the prosecutor and not sincerely interested in helping his clients, despite having a sworn duty to do so. It is very likely (I haven't watched all of the show so don't know how Brendan's story ends) that his behavior led to, minimally, decades in prison for his functionally-retarded, 16-year-old client. I honestly wish there were a mechanism for him to be prosecuted.

Your first concern is actually covered in the last episode.

Spoiler

It is just downright dirty and he should be barred - as well as his investigator and a few interesting things about Lentz at this time

Honestly - due to the way this show is laid out, it is best to watch the whole thing first. While it is very difficult to keep an open mind, I think it is very important to remember this is more or less a one sided documentary - and a very damning one.

 

[OutHouse]

I am now through Episode 5.

Spoiler

Among the cast of villainous characters, the one I find hardest to understand, and most despicable, is Len Kachinsky, Brendan Dassey's attorney.

I have been a lawyer for 17 years and done a fair amount of criminal defense, including getting a full acquittal in a first-degree murder case. I am not generally one to criticize other attorneys, but his representation of Brendan was just shocking to me. He not only failed to advocate for Brendan or believe him (I find this hard to understand given the obviously coercive nature of the interview in which Brendan confessed), he had his investigator systematically break Brendan down, obtain a written confession, give the confession (which would constitute a privileged communication) to the police, then let him sit for a multiple-hour interview by investigators without being present. This is a case in which he represents a developmentally disabled teenager accused of rape, murder and kidnapping.

It was unconscionable for him to let his client give that interview without counsel present. There is no ethical justification for that in my view. It's one thing to permit a client give an interview like that as part of a plea deal, after he has been convicted, but allowing it before there was a conviction, or even a plea deal in place, was nothing but harmful to Brendan (and Steven Avery) and served no legitimate purpose. Even if, for whatever reason, he felt the interview would be helpful, because it would engender good will to Brendan and help in sentencing (a view I would consider deeply misguided considering the very serious nature of the charges against Brendan and the lack of any evidence against him other than his confession), there was no reason to do it without counsel present.

I am just flabbergasted by what happened here. Kachinsky should really be disbarred. At best, he's stupid and incompetent. At worst, he is in the pocket of the prosecutor and not sincerely interested in helping his clients, despite having a sworn duty to do so. It is very likely (I haven't watched all of the show so don't know how Brendan's story ends) that his behavior led to, minimally, decades in prison for his functionally-retarded, 16-year-old client. I honestly wish there were a mechanism for him to be prosecuted.

yea my wife was PISSED at how

Spoiler

they feed him the answers they were wanting to get a full confession. I dont even know how that shit was allowed in court. a mentally disabled minor getting mentally raped by detectives serious WTF. the poor kid had no idea what the whole thing was about. considering his mental abilities he had no idea what was going on and from his perspective he just had 2 adults helping him find the answer they wanted to hear. Im yelling at the screen, SHUT UP STOP TALKING WHERE IS YOUR LAWYER!!!!

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

yea my wife was PISSED at how

Spoiler

they feed him the answers they were wanting to get a full confession. I dont even know how that shit was allowed in court. a mentally disabled minor getting mentally raped by detectives serious WTF. the poor kid had no idea what the whole thing was about. considering his mental abilities he had no idea what was going on and from his perspective he just had 2 adults helping him find the answer they wanted to hear.

Spoiler

Yeah, nothing about the portions of the interview they showed even suggested to me that what he was saying was true. It seemed clear he was totally stumped in trying to give them information, and certainly had no idea of the seriousness of the situation. Even adults of average intelligence sometimes make false confessions as a result of fairly benign, leading questioning, and a mentally-challenged kid like Brendan never even had a chance. I don't know that the investigators intended to spoon-feed him his entire confession - they may well have thought what he was saying was true - but it's clear their enthusiasm for hammering Steven Avery made them cut some corners and give Brendan all of the information he needed to "confess."

I blame Brendan's lawyer Len Kachinsky most of all, though, because he was the one with a sworn duty to zealously advocate for Brendan. Instead he stupidly, lazily sold him down the river to the investigators for what seems to me to be no benefit at all. Apparently he was decertified by the board of public defenders based on his allowing the interview with Brendan, so at least there are now fewer people accused of serious crimes relying on his incompetent advice.

 

[OutHouse]

Spoiler

the part where that slimeball lawyer Kachinsky's investigator had Brendan draw out very specific this for another confession was unbelievable. those two guys totally fucked that kid and how did they do all of that without the poor kid parent present??? then to send him off to talk to the two detectives without legal representation and have the kid hand them the drawings? jesus christ that guy should be disbarred

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Spoiler

the part where that slimeball lawyer Kachinsky's investigator had Brendan draw out very specific this for another confession was unbelievable. those two guys totally fucked that kid and how did they do all of that without the poor kid parent present??? then to send him off to talk to the two detectives without legal representation and have the kid hand them the drawings? jesus christ that guy should be disbarred

(Episode 4-5 discussion contained in this post.)

Spoiler

I found that whole questionnaire form that he used (asking whether Brendan felt sorry for what he'd done, and could promise that he wouldn't do it again) really really strange. Certainly as a criminal defense attorney there are times one has to tell one's client that a plea deal is in his best interests, and that he will need to take responsibility for his actions to plead guilty, but I have never seen anything like that form. It would be bad enough to have him write that stuff down, but to then give the forms over to the police is just unreal.

Brendan was never even given a chance to say he wasn't guilty - the investigator just told him he was lying when he tried. What's interesting is that the only time he seemed to be able to keep his story straight was when he denied wrongdoing - his version of events then was consistent. When he tried to confess to placate the investigators, though, he was all over the map and couldn't recite a consistent story that tracked the evidence.

I hope there's a hell so that grinning shitbag Len Kachinsky and his investigator can burn there. Those guys are just unbelievable.

 

[ImpulsE69]

D@mmit hurry up and finish it Interesting to have the take from someone who is familiar with the line of work.

 

[MarkXIX]

I'm on episode 3, what a fucking train wreck of epic proportions. At this point, I'm angry at everyone involved, I hope that changes as it goes on.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

I'm on episode 3, what a fucking train wreck of epic proportions. At this point, I'm angry at everyone involved, I hope that changes as it goes on.

While I don't know how it ends, I can guarantee you it gets much worse than what you have already seen.

 

[OutHouse]

Spoiler

so if he cut her throat while shackled to the bed, where is the blood???? I am a fan of Lt kenda and his stories about the homicides he has solved and one thing is constant. Stabbing victims leave a lot of blood behind. So cutting that woman's throat should have left a ton of blood evidence on the walls, ceiling, and ESPECIALLY the mattress. None of it was presented in court. D: