Networking Career Advice

[Lordicus]

First off, I'd like to thank everyone here, its has been very pleasant and informative.

My question is related to education.

I am 28, and presently I have 2 years experience as a net admin, a handful of years experience as techy.
Education wise I have a certificate of studies from Herzing College in Microcomputers and Networking from 2000. I did very well in that and went on to work as admin for 2 years 2002-2004.

I then had ankle surgery which left me unable to move for roughly 6 months. 1 year has passed now and I have since obtained a Comptia Network+ 2005 cert. I am still unemployed.

I am thinking of taking another course at herzing for 7000$ CDN for 7 months. We will do MCSA 2003 and CCNA. Its 3 days a week at roughly 6 hours each day.

I do not really want to be desktop support I prefer hands on, rather than working on a telephone. I would love to be a system admin eventually.

I have a few thousand saved which can cover my expenses for a few months, the school will be covered by a student loan. I am in debt 12000 for student loan now, if I were to take the course I would be in debt roughly 20000$ CDN. Interest is low - 5%. So mid way through the course I would have to find part-time work to pay the bills.


Is it worth it? Will I be in better shoes after the course is done? All I can seem to get now is telephone support. I want to do everything possible to not have to do that.

I'm sorry for this type of question it is a hard one to answer. I just want to be able to get a better job - net/sys admin. Thanks for the help, I'm quite worried

 

[nweaver]

Phone support is the easiest breakin method...many of us started there.

I would move away from CCNA and look at Brocade Fiber certs...SAN administration is the buzzword of the industry right now.

 

[casper114]

I got an associates degree for less then that course is going to cost. You say your 28 right? Have you filled out a FAFSA lately? At my work expirience takes precedence to education, but education is what gets you the interview. If I were you I might consider going to a more versitile degree and getting your certifications along the way. You can do a lot more with an information technology degree then just CCNA and MCSA certifications. You can pass the MCSA test with the help of transcenders and some playing around at home ( That's what I am doing and i'm half way there)

 

[Lordicus]

Please, more comments/advice

 

[ITJunkie]

I would agree with casper...shift to a degree and spend your money there. The degree will always be there whether you shift careers or not and is more and more a requirement for companies.

Believe me, I skipped the degree path and went after certs back in the late 90's and am now going back to finish my degree. I think I would be farther along if I had completed the degree first. Certs are good...degree is better!

 

[Lordicus]

Hey guys, thanks for all the input. Thanks for taking the time.
However right now a 4 year degree is out of the question. I live with my girlfriend and 4 years of school right now isn't possible. I already have 12k in debt for school, and would take another 7k from student loans.

Based upon that, can we form some other opinions??

Peace!

 

[casper114]

I don't know what exactly what your looking for. Y'know an associates at a community college is only 2 year degree and that will help tremendously. If you start now you can finish, and the longer you wait the harder it will be. If you just get certs then if you get a job in that field more then likely you will be getting passed up for promotion often. I have guys in my networking 3 class last semester that were in there for that very same reason.

 

[mobilecommand]

I would say gun for a MCSA then go for a MCSE then do the + security for the MCSE. The CCNA is a alot harder "not a bad thing" but where i came from you cannot get a job on a CCNA alone.. They want some NOS cert pref MS.

If you have not already done so get some type of virtual server software like vmware and install and play with windows 2003, setup domains, dns, wins, dhcp, group policy and IIS.

In IT experience is your best friend.

 

[Lordicus]

Thanks for the tips everyone.

It looks like I will enroll and do my MCSA/CCNA.

 

[spidey07]

One comment.

Generally you have network guys and then you have server guys. To be REALLY good at one of these fields generally means you can't be REALLY good at the other.

I'm saying "generally" because there are rare exceptions. Its just with the ways the respective industries change and the sheer speed of that change means it is very difficult to stay on top of both of them at the same time.

 

[fu5ion]

My recommendation would be to go back to college and get a BS in Computer Science. With so many students coming out of college with degrees in the IT field, your aspirations of becoming a system admin are limited, unless of course you know someone who knows someone. Otherwise I would purchase the transcenders and read the book for your certification and take whatever job comes your way. Help Desk=time=study=more certifications & connections to people up the chain of command.

 

[bluegreenturtle]

I think I must be missing something.

I understand that you want to be a professional and are seeking out the proper education and training to do so. This is great and will make you a valuable asset to whereever you end up.

It looks like to me you have enough experience though to get a job now. Maybe you aren't going to be running the IT department at a major corporation, but you can get a decent job that will enable you to gain more experience.

I have a bachelor's degree, but not in anything computer related. I have about 5 years good experience doing IT stuff - everything from helpdesk to sys admin. It just doesn't seem that hard to get work...I am consulting now, and between about 4 clients have no problem making the same that I would as a sys admin at a medium sized company. As far as I know my clients are estatic with my work (they keep calling me and they keep paying me). I don't have job security but anybody who thinks they do, whereever they are are just fooling themselves. In some ways I have more because I would have to be fired by all my clients simultaneously to go to zero income. I get exposed to a variety of environments, equipment and ways of doing things, and have time to study things on my own and keep growing. I see a dozen or more jobs a month that are sys admin/networking jobs that I could easily qualify for (I prefer my current lifestyle for now).

Anyway, I just don't understand the big hubub about getting your education and resume "just right." The road never ends and your education never will either. There will always be people that are better at what you do than you are. There will always be people better educated in your area. You just have to get on and start down the road, no matter where you are. I have no doubt that there are thousands of guys out there that know the stuff that I do far better than I do. I have replaced some of them. For some reason, people hire you for the combination of skills and experience that you have...though the thing that I think a lot of IT people overlook is also social skills and personality. Don't pursue your education totally and forget to develop these things, which in my experience, are far more important in landing jobs than letters on your resume.

Anyway, why not pick up enough consulting part time to allow you to continue your education whilst not going further into debt?

 

[SaigonK]

Originally posted by: spidey07
One comment.

Generally you have network guys and then you have server guys. To be REALLY good at one of these fields generally means you can't be REALLY good at the other.

I'm saying "generally" because there are rare exceptions. Its just with the ways the respective industries change and the sheer speed of that change means it is very difficult to stay on top of both of them at the same time.

I have tpo agree with Spidey on this one....the network guys I work with in my team dont have a clue about Windows or how it works, let alone AD or anything remotely outside of "point and click".

If you know both, you will go further than with just one. I started off in Desktop support, then moved up to be an entry level sysadmin for basic windows servers, really all i did was build the systems and then put them in the racks...it was fun to say the least..

After awhile i took on Citrix, Novell and Windows AD, as such i learned a lot from the people i worked with, and I can say that I am a damn good Systems Admin, the oppurtunity came up to take care of our LAN's in certain offices and I took it (begrudgingly at first) it was one of the best things ever, i did it for three years WHILE doing my normal SysAdmin duties, which gave me some unique insight into how it all works in the big scheme of things...


Now I am a Corporate Network Engineer, with over 11,000 nodes, countless wireless AP's, VPN systems, Routers, phone switch work, youi name it...


The point is dont sell yourself short, just learn as much as you can, unix, Windows, Network, Phone, Helpdesk work...do it all if you can...it makes you more marketable to say the least....hell I am now involved in Peoplesoft FDM deployment and support..go figure!

 

[spidey07]

Plus, all the money is in LAN/WAN.

A top notch server guy will max out at 120K. A top notch network guy...the sky is the limit.

With servers you pigeon hole yourself to a particular operating system. that may not apply to all companies. That's the great thing about networking...you control the underlying infrastructure...no network, no nothing.

And with all things good today it's all about communications. How can I get secure access from anywhere from any device to these things called servers.

 

[BlitzRommel]

The bar has been raised greatly in terms of what it takes to be considered for a job. It used to be the case where a degree wasn't really that important, but rather it was all about experience, and certs was just gravy... Now it seems people want a degree or equiv experience.

I just graduated with my degree in Telecom -- got a job as IT support at a major car dealer group here in Chicago. The pay is ok at best, but I'm kinda molding myself into the Network Specialist here.

Just hang in there. Go for your Associates degree; that's where I got started. If you're "in-district" you'll be paying next to nothing to take classes that may very well make the difference between getting interviews and being ignored.

 

[imported_JFG]

For that type of money I would just buy the cbtnuggets, vmware and a few computers and some practice labs. 6 hours a day for a few days won't give you the knowledge yu need.. Build your own network, play around and read..

 

[imported_netman]

I would highly discourage the class for CCNA/MCSE, but then again I would have to ask what is your goal?

Do you want to do networking (routing, switching, etc), or do you want to be an admin maintaining servers, user accounts, email, and such. In many environments there is a fine line. The choice for me was networking. If your choice was admin then I certainly wouldn't worry about a CCNA.

I currently work in an environment where I am explosed to many of the things "SaigonK" is (routers, switches, firewalls, load balancers, vpn concentrators, etc..) and I can say that in this environment you are forced to know systems also, infact along with learning networking I've probably ended up a better systems person than most of our admins. So I would certainly never pay for a class that was going to help me get a MCSE.

Our company also supports intern sponsorships from tech schools such as ITT, and Hallmark. These tech schools along with colleges charge an outragous price for what can be learned from self study and dedication for a fraction of the cost. I currently have 4 ITT people that i supported as interns, and ended up hiring. And, from their mouth, the best thing that came from their expensive schooling was that it landed them a job. The training was useless cause we had to all but retrain them. Now for specific certification courses they are probably even more of a waste. They drawn out what should be a 2-4 week self study into 7 months, and for about $100 in books, and $500 in hardware (buy a router and switch) you can self study and teach yourself more than you will get from the class. The CCNA and MCSE are really easy tests for the industry. Please don't fool yourself into thinking that these classes are the only or best way to get certifications.

 

[Diaonic]

If your going to pay for MCSE, just take the boot camp that Global Knowledge offers. I recently finished mine, i went in for my MCSE and came out with MCSE +Security in 9 days, the camp was suppose to run 14 days.

Having 4 years experience being a System Administrator and now getting the MCSE. I'm starting to see more doors opening.

 

[Boscoh]

Neither the MSCE or the CCNA are worth spending $7000 CDN on, or even half that. Go on ebay, get you a couple 2500 series routers, a 1900 or 2950 series switch, the Cisco CCNA self-study book, and get you a copy of Windows Server 2003 on ebay or one of the self-study kits. You'll spend probably less than half of what you'd pay for the course and you'll learn a hell of a lot more using real equipment at your own pace.

You really do need to pick a track though. I wouldn't venture down both the server and network track. It helps to know a little about both, but at any decent size company you aren't going to have time to be the network and server guy, you'll probably be one or the other.

That said, Windows Server 2003 is pretty easy to learn. If you're going to do servers, make sure you put as much time into learning *nix as you do Microsoft. I get people asking me all the time if I know any good Linux consultants. Apparently there's a lot of guys in the Houston area who say they know Linux but really dont.

On the networking side, CCNA is just a stepping stone. The cert is not as prestigious as it used to be, mostly because it's extremely easy to pass the test and a lot of people have it. VoIP, VVoIP, security, and optical are some very hot areas of networking right now. And as was mentioned, LANs and WANs will always be a good area. Also keep in mind that the Sales Engineers for vendors and resellers, the engineers who go with the sales team and answer questions and do product demos, usually make a lot of money too.

 

[Diaonic]

Neither the MSCE or the CCNA are worth spending $7000 CDN on, or even half that. Go on ebay, get you a couple 2500 series routers, a 1900 or 2950 series switch, the Cisco CCNA self-study book, and get you a copy of Windows Server 2003 on ebay or one of the self-study kits. You'll spend probably less than half of what you'd pay for the course and you'll learn a hell of a lot more using real equipment at your own pace.

Do you have experience with Global Knowledge or are you basing that entire statment on monetary vaule?

I personally loved the training at GK and it turned my 27k per year job into a 65k per year job. Which seems like a pretty good turn around for $7000.

Also with Microsoft, they aren't always looking for the right answer, it's typically the Microsoft answer which throws people off quite a bit. And can be hard to do self studying.

 

[PawNtheSandman]

I don't understand the appeal of these 1-2 week boot camps where they say you will be MCSE or CCNA in a week. They are basically brain dumps that prepare you for what is on the exam, not what you will experience on the job.

In your case, you have the on site experience, so you probably would benefit from the boot class, but for people with no experience, I would highly recommend NOT going to these boot camps.

It use to be that certs were all employers looked for. Now they want a 4 degree and certs. Your degree needs to be in a specific field like networking or programing. Many of the companies up here do not want people with general "Computer Science" degrees. "Computer Science" degree is like Jack of all traits, master of none.

I have been working on my MCSE since November and hopefully will have MCSA by the end of the month. It isn't as easy as everyone makes it out to be. I live in upstate NY where the IT market is crap. Network Admin jobs offer $35-$40k a year but want a 4 year degree and MCSE. I work for the government so I HAVE JOB SECURITY and that is more important. Sure I don't make as much as I would in private industry, but I have job security and awesome benefits. I get paid to get my certs so I can eventually move up. Although it can be tough and I am impatient, I know it will be worth it all in the end.


My advice to you, get your MCSE, then decide if you want to continue with Cisco. MCSE should get your foot in the door, but Cisco is a totally different monster and will open more doors but it is difficult to obtain.

 

[Diaonic]

I don't understand the appeal of these 1-2 week boot camps where they say you will be MCSE or CCNA in a week. They are basically brain dumps that prepare you for what is on the exam, not what you will experience on the job.

In your case, you have the on site experience, so you probably would benefit from the boot class, but for people with no experience, I would highly recommend NOT going to these boot camps.

This is exactly what they are for. Honestly is an employer going to sit you down in a room with the door locked and tell you to do a job without accessing any resources? not calling anyone or using any books?

Boot camps are not for everyone, but if you have the motivation to learn you still can pickup a lot from those two weeks.

basically what I did was skip all the stuff I knew and focused on the new features of w2k3 and asked questions about certain areas that I don't explore everyday.

My advice, if you are looking to just get the certs, go for the boot camp. If you want to learn and pass the tests over 6months to a year, read the books and get a subscription to www.actualtest.com. It costs like $100 and you get a lifetime membership to all the tests on the site and all future tests. I used these to pass my 227 and 298 because Global Didn't have them.

anyways good luck

 

[PawNtheSandman]

Actualtest seems to be just like TestKing which is basically cheating. You would be nothing more than a paper cert and when thousands of people get their certs this way and fail to perform on the job, the certs are devalued.

So if you are a MCSE making $30k a year, it is because of the cheaters who use Testking etc..

 

[Diaonic]

news flash:

The bootcamps that all these companies offer use the same thing. The difference between good and bad techs is the desire to learn and apply yourself in this industry.

 

[mobilecommand]

I am not sure how i feel on boot camps and brain dumps..

I got my MCSE 2003 + Security in about 6 to 8 Weeks taking 8 exams.. Never got my certs in 2000
I will admit i did use cram sheets the day of the exam just because this year i dumped over 1500 in cert exams getting them current.. I only looked because when the money comes out of your pocket you wanna pass on the first time.. Currently a MCSE 2003+ Security, CCNA, CCA, CEH, linux+, Security+ and I have nothing more then a HS degree..

Did I use the sheets to pass the exam no because i worked on a 10k plus user network running every MS product based on there best practice's..
In that case i like cram sheets..

In the case you study to pass and have no real experience i am totally against that.. paper MCSE or any cert are horrid but they usually flop in a few weeks anyways or never make it off help desk..

Now PawNtheSandman i dont agree with you on many things...

If you have real skills in IT you will get the big bucks..if your skills are not up to par you will get less then par pay..

I just moved to AZ from Western NY, and I worked for the County "a gov job"..
As you know they laid of 2500 people this year and we lost a ton in our dept.. so there is no such thing and job security in GOV these days
Not sure what segment of GOV you work for but i was at the county for 1.5 years and i was making 52k a year..
I was never laid off, I never got a pink slip, I quit on my own.. I was totally frustrated with the process of GOV and unions...
Moving to AZ is the best thing for a person in IT to do right now..
Been here less then a month and i will have 4 offers be the end of the week with the top offer at 80k a year..

So end all be all, Study study study, play around with servers constantly, learn a NOS like the back of your hand, and get CERTS..
..sky's the limit from there..

___________________________________________

I was reading some of the other posts and i wanted to edit this msg instead of making a new one..

Not sure who says CCNA is an easy exam because Cisco rasied the bar over the past year or two that thing is now a PITA.. Stuff from the CCNP exam moved down to the CCNA such as BGP and isis... So CCNA does hold some weight these days.. Just not enough to get the really nice jobs..

I think self study is the way to go as well and dont waste your money on cram schools..
Right now my lab consists of 1x 1605, 2 x 2501, 1x 2924cxl, and a dual 2.8 xeon server with 6 gig of memory running VMWARE ESX server hosting 15 virtual servers.. I can run just about anything i need to learn from citrx, multiple domains over slow wan links, linux, clustering etc... It was not even that expensive..

I got all my cisco gear for free as when i did side work i would install new gear and take there old gear for payment and i got about 2200 into my server and the only issue is software which you can get nfr's really cheap or get 90 day evals for free..

my 2 cents