New Bill to eliminate the Electoral College

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Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,034
2,613
136
The Founding Fathers rightfully feared foreign intervention in our elections, did not trust the whims of the masses and also needed to secure the support of the smaller states by assuring a balance to counter the larger states. The electoral system preserves that intent. As I said earlier in the thread, Democrats certainly didn’t have a concern over the electoral college when they won the White House.
Of course they didn't. Why would they? If a democrat won the presidency and lost the popular vote, I'd be on the same side of the argument too.
The argument isn't based on the results but based on its own basic merit which is clearly a popular vote is the best and consistent way to reflect the desires of all americans. Ideally it should be a ranked vote system so that 3rd party candidates have more of a chance but at least start with getting the basic concept that every vote should be equal nationwide down.

The US is not a democracy, and hopefully never will be.
You clearly prefer an oligarchy. Or perhaps military dictatorship?

Silly idea. Imagine the Florida recount fiasco but now for the entire country. Candidates would camp out in New York and L.A. and would rarely venture a few miles inland.
This is a legitimate concern but has more to do with poorly run (perhaps even intentionally) voting mechanisms in many particularly red states more than the actual concept of a popular vote. It doesn't actually decrease the merit of the popular vote concept but certainly is something that many states and likely the federal government would have to address.
Again the concern that campaigning only would occur in large cities is overblown: you don't know how many people are essentially voter suppressed and would come out to vote, and the city/non city split currently in the US is only 60/40 population wise.
 
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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,914
2,359
126
Why? Because the GOP would have to adopt a better party message to garner a majority of votes? Oh the horror. Can you name one other thing in life where you’d enjoy minority rule to be law?
Did you read the link I posted? What is your argument against it?
 

kohler

Member
Mar 17, 2010
55
1
71
Democrats certainly didn’t have a concern over the electoral college when they won the White House.

There have been hundreds of unsuccessful proposed amendments to modify or abolish the Electoral College - more than any other subject of Constitutional reform.

In Gallup polls since they started asking in 1944 until the 2016 election, only about 20% of the public has supported the current system of awarding all of a state's electoral votes to the presidential candidate who receives the most votes in each separate state (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but later enacted by 48 states) (with about 70% opposed and about 10% undecided).

In 1969, The U.S. House of Representatives voted for a national popular vote by a 338–70 margin. It was endorsed by Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, and various members of Congress who later ran for Vice President and President such as then-Congressman George H.W. Bush, and then-Senator Bob Dole.

Support for a national popular vote for President has been strong among Republicans, Democrats, and Independent voters, as well as every demographic group in every state surveyed. In the 41 red, blue, and purple states surveyed, overall support has been in the 67-81% range - in rural states, in small states, in Southern and border states, in big states, and in other states polled.

Most Americans don't ultimately care whether their presidential candidate wins or loses in their state or district or county. Voters want to know, that no matter where they live, even if they were on the losing side, their vote actually was equally counted and mattered to their candidate. Most Americans think it is wrong that the candidate with the most popular votes can lose. It undermines the legitimacy of the electoral system. We don't allow this in any other election in our representative republic.

Because of the state-by-state winner-take-all electoral votes laws (i.e., awarding all of a state’s electoral votes to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in each state) and (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but later enacted by 48 states), a candidate can win the Presidency without winning the most popular votes nationwide. It has occurred in 5 of the nation's 58 (9%) presidential elections.
The precariousness of the current state-by-state winner-take-all system of awarding electoral votes is highlighted by the fact that a difference of a few thousand voters in one, two, or three states would have elected the second-place candidate in 5 of the 16 presidential elections since World War II. Near misses are now frequently common. There have been 8 consecutive non-landslide presidential elections since 1988.
537 popular votes won Florida and the White House for Bush in 2000 despite Gore's lead of 537,179 (1,000 times more) popular votes nationwide.
A difference of 60,000 voters in Ohio in 2004 would have defeated President Bush despite his nationwide lead of over 3 million votes.
In 2012, a shift of 214,733 popular votes in four states would have elected Mitt Romney, despite President Obama’s nationwide lead of 4,966,945 votes.
Less than 80,000 votes in 3 states determined the 2016 election, where there was a lead of over 2,8oo,ooo popular votes nationwide.

After the 2012 election, Nate Silver calculated that "Mitt Romney may have had to win the national popular vote by three percentage points on Tuesday to be assured of winning the Electoral College."

The National Popular Vote bill was approved in 2016 by a unanimous bipartisan House committee vote in both Georgia (16 electoral votes) and Missouri (10).
Since 2006, the bill has passed 36 state legislative chambers in 23 rural, small, medium, large, Democratic, Republican and purple states with 261 electoral votes, including one house in Arizona (11), Arkansas (6), Maine (4), Michigan (16), Nevada (6), North Carolina (15), and Oklahoma (7), and both houses in Colorado (9), and New Mexico (5).
The bill has been enacted by 12 small, medium, and large jurisdictions with 172 electoral votes – 64% of the way to guaranteeing the majority of Electoral College votes and the presidency to the candidate with the most national popular votes.
 
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kohler

Member
Mar 17, 2010
55
1
71
That's an easy one. Your vote counts as a single vote, exactly the same as every other vote in your state. The president is elected by the states, not by the people.

Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker in 2015 was correct when he said
"The nation as a whole is not going to elect the next president,"
“The presidential election will not be decided by all states, but rather just 12 of them.

Candidates have no reason to poll, visit, advertise, organize, campaign, or care about the voter concerns in the dozens of states where they are safely ahead or hopelessly behind.

With the end of the primaries, without the National Popular Vote bill in effect, the political relevance of 70% of all Americans was finished for the presidential election.

The current presidential election system does not function, at all, the way that the Founders thought that it would.

Supporters of National Popular Vote find it hard to believe the Founding Fathers would endorse the current electoral system where 38+ states and voters now are completely politically irrelevant.

10 of the original 13 states are politically irrelevant now.

The Founders created the Electoral College, but 48 states eventually enacted state winner-take-all laws, and now may change them in the same way.

Unable to agree on any particular method for selecting presidential electors, the Founding Fathers left the choice of method exclusively to the states in Article II, Section 1

“Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors….”

The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly characterized the authority of the state legislatures over the manner of awarding their electoral votes as "plenary" and "exclusive.

Neither of the two most important features of the current system of electing the President (namely, universal suffrage, and the 48 state-by-state winner-take-all method) are in the U.S. Constitution. Neither was the choice of the Founders when they went back to their states to organize the nation's first presidential election.

In 1789, in the nation's first election, a majority of the states appointed their presidential electors by appointment by the legislature or by the governor and his cabinet, the people had no vote for President in most states, and in states where there was a popular vote, only men who owned a substantial amount of property could vote, and only three states used the state-by-state winner-take-all method to award electoral votes.

The current winner-take-all method of awarding electoral votes is not in the U.S. Constitution. It was not debated at the Constitutional Convention. It is not mentioned in the Federalist Papers. It was not the Founders’ choice. It was used by only three states in 1789, and all three of them repealed it by 1800. It is not entitled to any special deference based on history or the historical meaning of the words in the U.S. Constitution. The actions taken by the Founding Fathers make it clear that they never gave their imprimatur to the winner-take-all method. The winner-take-all method of awarding electoral votes became dominant only in the 1880s after the states adopted it, one-by-one, in order to maximize the power of the party in power in each state. . The Founders had been dead for decades

The constitutional wording does not encourage, discourage, require, or prohibit the use of any particular method for awarding a state's electoral votes.

States have the responsibility and constitutional power to make all of their voters relevant in every presidential election and beyond. Now, 38 states, of all sizes, and their voters, because they vote predictably, are politically irrelevant in presidential elections.

There is nothing in the Constitution that prevents states from making the decision now that winning the national popular vote is required to win the Electoral College and the presidency.

The National Popular Vote bill is 64% of the way to guaranteeing the majority of Electoral College votes and the presidency in 2020 to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in the country, by changing state winner-take-all laws (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but later enacted by 48 states), without changing anything in the Constitution, using the built-in method that the Constitution provides for states to make changes.

All voters would be valued equally in presidential elections, no matter where they live.
 

kohler

Member
Mar 17, 2010
55
1
71
, , , eliminating the EC is a bad idea.

In Gallup polls since they started asking in 1944 until the 2016 election, only about 20% of the public has supported the current system of awarding all of a state's electoral votes to the presidential candidate who receives the most votes in each separate state (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but later enacted by 48 states) (with about 70% opposed and about 10% undecided).

Support for a national popular vote for President has been strong among Republicans, Democrats, and Independent voters, as well as every demographic group in every state surveyed. In the 41 red, blue, and purple states surveyed, overall support has been in the 67-81% range - in rural states, in small states, in Southern and border states, in big states, and in other states polled.

About 60% of votes in presidential elections have been for the runner-ups in a state or surplus votes cast in a state. None of those votes helps their candidates.

In 2012, 56,256,178 (44%) of the 128,954,498 voters had their vote diverted by the winner-take-all rule to a candidate they opposed (namely, their state’s first-place candidate)
And now votes, beyond the one needed to get the most votes in the state, for winning in a state, are wasted and don't matter to presidential candidates.

There are several scenarios in which a candidate could win the presidency in 2020 with fewer popular votes than their opponents. It could reduce turnout more, as more voters realize their votes do not matter.

Most Americans don't ultimately care whether their presidential candidate wins or loses in their state or district or county. Voters want to know, that no matter where they live, even if they were on the losing side, their vote actually was equally counted and mattered to their candidate. Most Americans think it is wrong that the candidate with the most popular votes can lose. It undermines the legitimacy of the electoral system. We don't allow this in any other election in our representative republic.

The National Popular Vote bill was approved in 2016 by a unanimous bipartisan House committee vote in both Georgia (16 electoral votes) and Missouri (10).

Since 2006, the bill has passed 36 state legislative chambers in 23 rural, small, medium, large, Democratic, Republican and purple states with 261 electoral votes, including one house in Arizona (11), Arkansas (6), Maine (4), Michigan (16), Nevada (6), North Carolina (15), and Oklahoma (7), and both houses in Colorado (9), and New Mexico (5).

The bill has been enacted by 12 small, medium, and large jurisdictions with 172 electoral votes – 64% of the way to guaranteeing the majority of Electoral College votes and the presidency to the candidate with the most national popular votes.

When enacted by states with 270 electors, the bill would change their state winner-take-all laws (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but later enacted by 48 states), without changing anything in the Constitution, using the built-in method that the Constitution provides for states to make changes, to guarantee the majority of Electoral College votes and the presidency to the candidate with the most national popular votes.
 

kohler

Member
Mar 17, 2010
55
1
71
The Founding Fathers rightfully feared foreign intervention in our elections, did not trust the whims of the masses and also needed to secure the support of the smaller states by assuring a balance to counter the larger states. The electoral system preserves that intent. As I said earlier in the thread, Democrats certainly didn’t have a concern over the electoral college when they won the White House.

The presidential election system, using the 48 state winner-take-all method or district winner method of awarding electoral votes used by 2 states, that we have today was not designed, anticipated, or favored by the Founding Fathers. It is the product of decades of change precipitated by the emergence of political parties and enactment by states of winner-take-all or district winner laws, not mentioned, much less endorsed, in the Constitution.

The Constitution does not encourage, discourage, require, or prohibit the use of any particular method for how to award a state's electoral votes

". . . the Electoral College system provides ripe microtargeting grounds for foreign actors who intend to sabotage presidential elections via information and disinformation campaigns, as well as by hacking our voting infrastructure. One reason is that citizens in certain states simply have more voting power than citizens in other states, such as Texas and California. This makes it easier for malign outside forces to direct their efforts.

But what if the national popular vote determined the president instead of the Electoral College? No voter would be more electorally powerful than another. It would be more difficult for a foreign entity to sway many millions of voters scattered across the country than concentrated groups of tens of thousands of voters in just a few states. And it would be more difficult to tamper with voting systems on a nationwide basis than to hack into a handful of databases in crucial swing districts, which could alter an election’s outcome. " - Olsen & Haas https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/09/20/electoral-college-threat-national-security-215626

Because of our current winner-take-all-system of awarding electoral votes, our presidential elections are vulnerable to easy manipulation.

Princeton Election Consortium’s Sam Wang “Today’s Electoral College opens a giant security hole.”

Reed Hundt, former FCC Chairman, said, "A huge percentage of Americans are right in identifying that the current method of selecting the President makes our democracy vulnerable to foreign interference. Too few voters play too big a role in selecting the President. If the entire national popular vote chose the President it would be nearly impossible for bad actors to twist the thinking of millions of people and thwart the true will of the people."

Now, the Electoral College would not prevent a candidate winning in states with 270 electoral votes from being elected President of the United States

Now 48 states have winner-take-all state laws for awarding electoral votes.
2 award one electoral vote to the winner of each congressional district, and two electoral votes statewide.
Neither method is mentioned in the U.S. Constitution.

The electors are and will be dedicated party activist supporters of the winning party’s candidate who meet briefly in mid-December to cast their totally predictable rubberstamped votes in accordance with their pre-announced pledges.

The current system does not provide some kind of check on the "mobs."

Support for a national popular vote has been strong in every smallest state surveyed in polls among Republicans, Democrats, and Independent voters, as well as every demographic group

Among the 13 lowest population states, the National Popular Vote bill has passed in 9 state legislative chambers, and been enacted by 4 jurisdictions.

Now political clout comes from being among the handful of battleground states. 70-80% of states and voters are ignored by presidential campaign polling, organizing, ad spending, and visits. Their states’ votes were conceded months before by the minority parties in the states, taken for granted by the dominant party in the states, and ignored by all parties in presidential campaigns.

State winner-take-all laws negate any simplistic mathematical equations about the relative power of states based on their number of residents per electoral vote. Small state math means absolutely nothing to presidential campaign polling, organizing, ad spending, and visits, or to presidents once in office.

In the 25 smallest states in 2008, the Democratic and Republican popular vote was almost tied (9.9 million versus 9.8 million), as was the electoral vote (57 versus 58). They voted Republican or Democratic 12-13 in 2008 and 2012.

In 2012, 24 of the nation's 27 smallest states received no attention at all from presidential campaigns after the conventions. They were ignored despite their supposed numerical advantage in the Electoral College. In fact, the 8.6 million eligible voters in Ohio received more campaign ads and campaign visits from the major party campaigns than the 42 million eligible voters in those 27 smallest states combined.

The 12 smallest states are totally ignored in presidential elections. These states are not ignored because they are small, but because they are not closely divided “battleground” states.

Now with state-by-state winner-take-all laws (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but later enacted by 48 states), presidential elections ignore 12 of the 13 lowest population states (3-4 electoral votes), that are non-competitive in presidential elections. 6 regularly vote Republican (AK, ID, MT, WY, ND, and SD), and 6 regularly vote Democratic (RI, DE, HI, VT, ME, and DC) in presidential elections.

Voters in states, of all sizes, that are reliably red or blue don't matter. Candidates ignore those states and the issues they care about most.

Now, a presidential candidate could lose despite winning 78%+ of the popular vote and 39 smaller states.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Did you read your own link?

I did. Dems never voted to wall off Texas from the Rio Grande. The proposition is absurd. They never voted to fence off extremely remote & rugged sections of the border, either.
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,657
4,130
136
I have a strong feeling all these Republicans will be singing a different tune when, not if, TX goes blue.
 
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Feb 4, 2009
34,703
15,950
136
@kohler explained this State voter compact thing well. Effectively multiple States whose votes add up to 270 electoral votes are saying

Fuck you all! We decide who is President and we’re tired of stupid hats, stupid fairs, funnel cake and Politicians serving barbecue. We’ll give all our EC votes to whomever wins the popular vote.

Only question I have is the plan falls apart if a couple of States say I don’t like playing this game because it backs candidates our voters don’t like or the other scenario of a state doesn’t follow the mandate because they don’t like the result.
 
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khon

Golden Member
Jun 8, 2010
1,319
124
106
I'm in favor, not because of which political party it might favor, which will probably change over time anyway, but because it will mean that presidential candidates can no longer ignore people in "safe" states.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,234
136
Yes. States are not countries.
Interesting (incorrect) conclusion.

A "state" is literally a country. You're blinded by the term "state" because the individual states that joined this "United States" union don't always act like individual countries in certain matters. Each state in this union agreed to give up control of specific inter-state (inter-national) responsibilities to a federal government. Which is not so different from the European union -- from which member nations might decide to secede if they don't feel that it's beneficial to remain (Brexit, anyone?).

The Tenth Amendment clarifies:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

The federal government was only supposed to regulate inter-state commerce (inter-national commerce), national defense, and the postal system. It's why states have different laws where something could be illegal in one state, but a HUGE and crucial part of the economy in another. In regards to our individual lives, your state should have far greater control than the federal government. Local government should have greater powers than your state. Finally, you should have absolute power over your private property unless it violates the rights of others.

The founders intended for power / control over our individual lives and property to work from the bottom-up, not the top-down. In this "free country," the founders intended for the federal government to have practically no control or influence over our day-to-day lives. Unfortunately, this has slowly eroded (read about the inter-state commerce clause below) and now people think the federal government is supposed to supersede state rights and individual freedoms.

Basically all of the federal government power grabs and over-stepping boundaries are based on an old court case regarding the inter-state commerce clause. The federal government was able to force a man to grow less corn. Why? Because the corn might find its way into other states or otherwise affect demand for corn from surrounding states, even if the farmer sold his corn exclusively within his own state. That set a very bad precedent which has slowly eroded personal freedom and state rights ever since. Eventually this government will fail as badly as all the most powerful civilizations have.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Interesting (incorrect) conclusion.

A "state" is literally a country. You're blinded by the term "state" because the individual states that joined this "United States" union don't always act like individual countries in certain matters. Each state in this union agreed to give up control of specific inter-state and inter-national responsibilities to a federal government.

The Tenth Amendment clarifies:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

The federal government was only supposed to regulate inter-state commerce, inter-national commerce, and national defense (oh yeah, and the postal system too). In regards to our indivudial lives, your state should have far greater control than the federal government. Local government should have greater powers than your state. Finally, you should have absolute power over your private property unless it violates the rights of others.

Basically all of the federal government power grabs and over-stepping boundaries are based on an old court case regarding the inter-state commerce clause. The federal government was able to force a man to grow less corn. Why? Because the corn might find its way into other states or otherwise affect demand for corn from surrounding states, even if the farmer sold his corn exclusively within his own state. That started a slow erosion of personal freedom and eventually this government will fail as badly as all the most powerful civilizations have.

Which has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,773
49,427
136
Interesting (incorrect) conclusion.

A "state" is literally a country. You're blinded by the term "state" because the individual states that joined this "United States" union don't always act like individual countries in certain matters. Each state in this union agreed to give up control of specific inter-state and inter-national responsibilities to a federal government.

This is a bafflingly ignorant post. A state is any territory unified under a political government. Some of those are countries, some are not. I’m not ‘blinded’ to anything, I’m simply telling you that your definition is unarguably wrong.

States, insofar as the term applies to the United States, are not countries. They do not enjoy a monopoly over the use of force within their boundaries, they do not control their own foreign policy, etc. they are not countries. Period.

The Tenth Amendment clarifies:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

The federal government was only supposed to regulate inter-state commerce, inter-national commerce, and national defense (oh yeah, and the postal system too). In regards to our indivudial lives, your state should have far greater control than the federal government. Local government should have greater powers than your state. Finally, you should have absolute power over your private property unless it violates the rights of others.

Your state does hve far greater power over your day to day life than the federal government does. Very few of the laws that govern your daily living are federal ones.

As far as local governments having more power than the state that’s impossible as all of their powers are derived from the state.

Basically all of the federal government power grabs and over-stepping boundaries are based on an old court case regarding the inter-state commerce clause. The federal government was able to force a man to grow less corn. Why? Because the corn might find its way into other states or otherwise affect demand for corn from surrounding states, even if the farmer sold his corn exclusively within his own state. That started a slow erosion of personal freedom and eventually this government will fail as badly as all the most powerful civilizations have.

You seem to be ranting about what you wish the distribution of power between the states and the feds would be, not what it actually is.

Before you start lecturing other people on our system of government I suggest you learn the basics of how it works first.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
This is a bafflingly ignorant post. A state is any territory unified under a political government. Some of those are countries, some are not. I’m not ‘blinded’ to anything, I’m simply telling you that your definition is unarguably wrong.

States, insofar as the term applies to the United States, are not countries. They do not enjoy a monopoly over the use of force within their boundaries, they do not control their own foreign policy, etc. they are not countries. Period.



Your state does hve far greater power over your day to day life than the federal government does. Very few of the laws that govern your daily living are federal ones.

As far as local governments having more power than the state that’s impossible as all of their powers are derived from the state.



You seem to be ranting about what you wish the distribution of power between the states and the feds would be, not what it actually is.

Before you start lecturing other people on our system of government I suggest you learn the basics of how it works first.

Tenther Libertopians are kinda cute in a quaint sort of way.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,034
2,613
136
I'm in favor, not because of which political party it might favor, which will probably change over time anyway, but because it will mean that presidential candidates can no longer ignore people in "safe" states.
Yes. Exactly. Today we have the Dems and Republicans. Tomorrow we may have the whigs and the Federalists and copperheads again.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
The only reason the GOP favors the EC is that it made their loser the winner of two out of three of our last Presidencies. It's just another way for them to game the system, like gerrymandering, voter suppression & whatever else they can get away with.

It's like they don't want honest democracy at all. And it's not like those presidencies have been smashing successes for this country, either.
 
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BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,350
11,720
136
The only reason the GOP favors the EC is that it made their loser the winner of two out of three of our last Presidencies. It's just another way for them to game the system, like gerrymandering, voter suppression & whatever else they can get away with.

It's like they don't want honest democracy at all. And it's not like those presidencies have been smashing successes for this country, either.

You're right, but, as has been pointed out several times, the USA is NOT a democracy. We are a federal republic and a constitutional representative democracy.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,773
49,427
136
You're right, but, as has been pointed out several times, the USA is NOT a democracy. We are a federal republic and a constitutional representative democracy.

The US is a democracy. A representative democracy is still a democracy.

If the US is not a democracy then they do not exist.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
63,350
11,720
136
The US is a democracy. A representative democracy is still a democracy.

If the US is not a democracy then they do not exist.

But a true democracy is "majority wins." Obviously, that's not the case here...
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,773
49,427
136
But a true democracy is "majority wins." Obviously, that's not the case here...

That’s not true in any country on earth though. Every country has supermajority requirements or other such things put in place to make sure that the majority doesn’t always win.
 
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