New Corolla for $12079

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eLuminati

Senior member
Oct 11, 1999
479
0
0
haha...the buyer being dishonest to the car dealer? what a novel concept...i always thought it was the other way around!
 

fornax

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
6,866
0
76
I fail to see what's dishonest here. He brings an offer for a car and the dealer can decide whether to match it or not. It's like you print a web page from (say) etoys.com (RIP), bring it to a local store and ask them if they'll match the price or not. Or is here something about www.cardirect.com that I'm missing?
 

dc

Diamond Member
Nov 26, 1999
9,998
2
0
if you guys didnt' notice, his original post is edited. step3 is missing.

assuming from the wording of step2, step3 was somewhere along the lines of editing the webpage and putting in a fake price and then printing it out. which = fraud.:disgust:
 

eLuminati

Senior member
Oct 11, 1999
479
0
0
it's pretty damn easy to figure out what he did. some ppl (not me) do this for rebate purposes and yes it is dishonest.
 

jsmonet

Member
Dec 29, 2000
188
0
0
I'll put it back..
#3 change the price down to 12k

#4 show a dealer your fixed page and tell him to sell the car to you for that price.

how is that really dishonest? they could easily say "f**k off" if they don't want to sell it. they won't sell you a car below their cost after holdback. not even if you have a piece of paper saying "you said you would". somehow I don't think the BBB would give a flying f**k if you called them and whined about them not honoring your request that they sell you a car for 12 bucks because it is on your printed-out piece of paper.

I walked into the dealer for my 2k civic si and told them, flat out, my best offer given to me so far was 16,450. they laughed. I told them I just didn't want to drive that far, they laughed and told me what an honor it would be of mine to pay 17,100 for it stripped. uh... NO.

the next dealer I told them I was offered the car for 16 flat. they gave me 16450 with mats and mud guards.
was that dishonest? they still made at least 2 grand on me. I could have purchased the car for 16k flat, OTD, and they still would have made money.

no dealer is held to honoring whatever printed-out statement you show them if it is below their acceptable price. "i'm sorry, but we'd be taking a loss if we sold it to you for that... I don't know how the site came up with that price. you know, the final decision is my boss'es, and I don't think HIS boss would appreciate us losing him money on a car sale that should have MADE him money."

now, was that so hard to understand? you HAVE to be shady to get a fair price nowadays.
 

dc

Diamond Member
Nov 26, 1999
9,998
2
0
great attitude. :disgust:
yes, lets go doctor/edit webpages to use. who cares about fraud or ethics. great...

hey, if you don't have scruples about doing this type of stuff then go ahead. not everyone thinks and deals like you. :disgust:
 

Pers

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,603
1
0
y is there no step 3...is that where the dishonest comes in?? I am assuming he changes the price or something.. if thats the case then GREAT IDEA!
 

lzpoof

Senior member
Jan 20, 2001
916
0
0
Coming from someone who just bought a nicely equipped 2001 626 V6, I think the guy is no more dishonest than the dealer's themselves. They do lie. Fact. 'We'd lose money'. bullshit. I got my car for 20,500 cause I liked the color and I was desperate. They said 'wow, well we can't really go any lower .. you know ?'. Same week, guy ten minutes away offers me an automatic , same options, for $19,600. He was willing to go into the holdback. For anyone who doesn't know, the auto tranny is a 700 option for the dealer. That makes my car $1600 overpriced, but auto trannies, especially Mazda ones, suck for V6. Might as well get a manual 4cyl for less money, same speed. Bottom line, I didn't get a very good deal, but you can be sure that just about every car dealer is BSing you if they say they aren't making any money. I say stick it to em.
 

sharkbitz

Member
Mar 20, 2000
130
0
0
When you finance a car, you have to get the dealer to fax a form to your bank, so they can go over it. I had a friend who had this faxed to his home, and fudged it from there! You know what I'm talking about. These forms are a lot more convincing!!
 

Jester66

Junior Member
Feb 6, 2001
23
0
0
I really hate to burst peoples bubbles, but just to give you a heads up on the percentages for profit on new cars. For example the GM employee discount used to be 9% off of MSRP base and 15% off options for low end cars and higher end cars were as much as 18% off for options. (that was for factory ordered vehicles.) If you took one off the lot you got an additional 5 1/2 percent off the Best price you could get. So if you got a vehicle for 100 bucks over invoice then you subtracted the 5 1/2 percent basically from the dealer invoice.
REMEMBER the dealer is still making a profit off of this.
All ways Remember
Dealer invoices don't mean jack. That is not what the dealer is paying for the vehicle.
the dealer gets back
4 1/2 percent to 6 percent for HOLDBACK- (covers advertising/lot insurance) Rare is the dealer who will touch this though.
Dealer incentive/rebates to push the stock that has been sitting too long.
Financing kickbacks - Used to be up to 50 percent kickback of interest to the dealer. Percentages don't mean crap. I compared financing one time:
Car dealer 9%, Credit union 12% but the interest on like a two year loan from the Dealer's bank was 3 thousand and like 1200 from the credit union, (compounded differently)

Now I haven't shopped for a year or two and things are a changing all the time, but it took us like two years to buy a new car the last time (MSRP 22,000; 16000 OTD TTL, with all discounts, GM card, GM employee, Rebates)
All ways remember CAR SALESMEN ARE NOT THERE TO HELP YOU! There are there to F**k you over and sell you a car. THAT IS HOW THEY STAY in business.

Sorry but car dealers really piss me off. I hae caught them so many times in lies that I have no respect for any of them.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
0
56
The "sticker price" is called the Monroney, named after the congressman who made it a federal law to force car dealers to at least post an asking price for new cars, after he'd gone car buying and the dealers all had no prices posted and offered wildly varying prices. It's a piece of fiction, and only serves as an asking price.

a couple of things to remember when shopping:

1.) New car sale prices are really an auction, anything to use as leverage is fair game.

2.) They (the salespeople) are forced to use every trick in the book to seperate you & your money. If you're into sales techniques, carefully observe what they're doing to you. ie: bait & switch (not having the car they advertise in the paper in stock), selling up, hidden charges, physical disorientation, hiding the keys to your trade in, etc.

3.) Be kind to your car salesperson, they make on the average appx $30,000+/year.

4.) even the "invoice price" is fiction, most of the manufacturers hold back a % of the invoice price and pay it to the dealership quarterly, so the dealership can sell cars @ "invoice" & still make $.

5.) Where car dealerships make their real % of profit is on their service dept, go there before you go up front to the sales area to get a feel for what they're doing to their loyal customers.

The only place I've seen more agressive sales techniques is in time share vacation sales, (a good place to get free stuff if you can say no to an obvious scam).

Saturn dealerships are the only brand to try to leave the high powered sales out, and they've always lost money.
 

vaylon

Senior member
Oct 22, 2000
219
0
71
My family has been in the car business for 3 decades, we have sold datsuns, chevys and fords.heres a quick lesson on new car pricing!
Window sticker price is the absolute highest price you should pay for the car, this is not the dealer invoice, allthough some dealers will take a rubber stamp and stamp a big red INVOICE over the top of it.Anyway with out getting into a lecture heres the deal. If the car is very hot or in great demand(like a limited edition Viper) expect to pay window price or more. Dealer invoice is usally 10 -15 % less than sticker.Dealers make most of their money, not from you, but from the car company. if they sell 75 units this month, they get a kickback from the company of say 100 dollars per car plus all the incentives, and their are alot. this is the real profit the dealer makes(your not suppose to know about this). but say instead of 75 they sold 250 units.instaed of 100 dollar kickback they now get 300 dollars per unit. the more you sell, the more you get per unit. These prices are set by the car manufacturers. Some companies pay into the thousands per unit.
Heres a good rule of thumb.
NEver use a trade in - you kill any real chance for negotiating
A basic model under most circumstances can be bought for 5% to 10% below sticker price.
a topped out model can be had for 10 - 22 % below window sticker.
Heres one last clue, wait towards the end of the month. Go to a big dealership, when you get there if it looks like there is 3 or 4 salesman for every customer, thats the perfect time. This means that they are real close to having the numbers they need to jump a level and the sales manager has called out the forces to make it happen.
Sorry so un coherant but no coffe yet;P
 

SST

Member
Dec 30, 2000
83
0
0
Nice explanation, vaylon. After the MSRP (aka sticker) price and invoive price, the kickback and incentives that was mentioned was coined as WHOLESALE PRICE by the Consumer Report, the leading monthly magazine for Consumer Union. You can get down to this bottom price by ordering at a certain fee, and they advised using this wholesale price to haggle with the dealers, while the old trick of bargaining from the invoice price is passe.
 

ranalli

Senior member
Oct 9, 1999
211
0
0
DC, if you really knew how dishonest dealers are you would be doing this too. If you think dealers are any bit honest then you have absolutely no idea how much you've been ripped off. I know a lot of their tricks cause my father was one for a while. He made thousands off of ignorant people. I've bought two new cars and I can tell you that they'll scam you at every chance they get. They size you up as soon as you walk in the door. And remember, no one is making them agree to the price. Its not like you're going in there with a gun and saying, "Give me this price or your're dead". They could just as easily say "no". Its just a bargaining tool. And the reality is that they have many more tools than you do, you're just leveling the playing field. A bit of advice, never pay more than $200 over invoice for the car. That way the sale goes quick, the dealer makes a quick buck, and the dealership still gets that end of the year kickback.
 

hagbag

Junior Member
Feb 6, 2001
19
0
0
Re: Cars

Very interesting discussion from my point of view. I have been selling cars for over twenty years. Anytime I can peek into the minds of my customers I am always curious.

A couple of quick observations:

1. The dealer is not your enemy.

2. Use any information available to educate yourself.

3. The free market determines the actual price of the car.

4. SHOP!!! (directly related to #2 and#3)
 

geewilakers

Member
Jan 31, 2001
94
0
0
I find it useful to neg. a final price that "includes" taxes. Once you get a final price from the dealer, have them throw in taxes along with everything else in that final price. Consider as though you want the car for the final neg. price minus taxes.
 

dgoedken

Senior member
Mar 24, 2000
320
0
0
hagbag....maybe the salesperson isn't your enemy...but when a person has financial incentive to make you pay the most possible for a car, I will treat them as trying to take money from my wallet. Being friendly is good, b/c where do you think the warranty work will be done...but I won't be calling my salesperson for a poker game anytime soon.

 

Kirsten

Member
Sep 26, 2000
84
0
0
Some good tips in this thread. Here are my tips. First, if you have a friend at a bank get them to give you the "actual" invoice of the car you want to buy. They finance the dealers inventory and they all have a book listing the "real" invoice that they loan against. With that printout go to about 5 dealers. One of them will sell you the car for $100 over the actual dealer invoice. If the dealer brings out an invoice that doesn't match the "real" one then go to a different dealer. I usually do this all over the phone/fax ...and have the car pre bought before I ever meet the salesman.

Happy Shopping
Kirsten
 

khstudios

Senior member
Jan 24, 2001
307
0
0
it also depends on how much u put down... u can go a lot lower than invoice if u put less down (cuz they get u in financing) and etc... and to the guy (handbag) who said dealers are not the enemies. Yeah u're right. You gotta sorta be friends with him and be on his good side if u wanna get a better deal...
 

freebee

Diamond Member
Dec 30, 2000
4,043
0
0
Salesman are not evil!!!!!!!

The owners are the ones who pressure them to sell cars, or they are fired. Simple as that. Next time you go to a car dealership remember that poor guy selling you a car is trying to keep his job. besides, all this talk about invoice and holdback (what some call 'kickback') leads to the conlcusion that dealers make a lot of money, both through sales and eventual service.

Rememeber hate the managers and owners, don't beat up on the poor salesman.
 

hagbag

Junior Member
Feb 6, 2001
19
0
0
Time to cut thru the nonsense. Forget about invoice prices, holdbacks and all the other b.s.

This is the way to buy a car.
1. Pick the car you want to buy. I mean the exact car- this is vital!!
( do all of your research beforehand - internet, carbuying services,conversations with freinds consumer reports etc.

2. Visit five dealers that are convenient to you. Tell them that you are buying a car within the next couple of days. Show the salesman that you are serious by casually carrying your checkbook or title to your trade where it can be noticed (back pocket or shirt pocket) Tell the salesman what you are doing and how you are doing it-name their competition. Tell them you want their price in writing. You can ask for separate prices if you have a trade if that floats your boat(you really should decide beforehand if you are going to trade. You can always get more for your trade by selling it privately but it can be a huge hassle)

3. Relax and consider your offers. Usually how this boils down is that of the five dealers you visited one dealer will have an incredibly high price one other dealer will have an unbelievably low price and the remaining three dealers will usually be within 50 to 100 dollars of each other.

4.Select who you want to do business with
A. the dealer that gives you the very high price is not interested in your business.
B. The dealer that gave you the incredibly low price has lowballed you to get you to come back to him. This is a tough one. Human nature says that you(the customer)have to jump on such agreat deal. When you go back to get the deal and find that it is not available(for whatever reason)you have to realize that you have been lied to. The question to ask yourself is "Do I want to do business with someone that lied to me to try to get my money"
C.This leaves the three dealers that are very competitve with each other. You should do business with the one that is the most convenient to you i.e. closest to your home or work

I have been selling cars for a long timeand have the scars to prove it!!
I avoid doing business with freinds or relatives.Nothing like answering the phone at three A.M. and hearing "that sh#tbox you sold me...." This is the method that I reccomend to friends and relatives and it works very well
 

dc

Diamond Member
Nov 26, 1999
9,998
2
0
ranalli: i know they are usually dishonest. but in my book editing a webpage to get a deal is the equivalent to forgery/fraud. there are other ways to get a good deal besides doing something so obviously wrong.
 

VBboy

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 2000
5,793
0
0
DealSpreeDotCom,

Sound a little dishonest?! You ever been to a car dealership before?! They rip you a new one, looking you in the eyes and saying they love you!

If you're about honesty, stop reading these posts You think Staples and other companies enjoy all your price matches and stuff?!
 
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