NEW!!! Corsair released 16GB XMS2 (4 x 4GB) DDR2-800 desktop ram kit!!!!

[Shingoshi]

So I'm guessing you looked and couldn't find one either. So maybe this will help. You'll notice all of the systems with 16GBs have the ICH10R and only the ICH10R. Do you want another source besides this one. It is Intel's own page after all.

http://compare.intel.com/pcc/s...ilyID=10&culture=en-US

If you can do better than this, let me know!
Shingoshi

 

[taltamir]

can you not comprehend the very content of the page you showed me?

It compares the features of north bridge chips, it lists three models of northbridge chips that can handle 16GB of ram.

All three of those are limited to the ICH10R southbridge for "storage technology" (optional) and to the ICH10 and ICH10R for southbridge (IO controller), but the southbridge has nothing to do with the amount of ram the northbridge can handle.

As you can tell from the "Intel® G43 Express Chipset" northbridge which only has 8GB of ram max, but is likewise limited to the ICH10R for "storage" (RAID) and the ICH10/ICH10R for southbridge (IO) just like the chipsets that could do 16GB of ram. So this data invalidates your claim.

But you see, even if ONLY and ALL the northbridges capable of running with ICH10/R had 16GB of ram support, your assertion that as a result the ICH10/R must be somehow REQUIRED for 16GB of ram is a flawed and false assumption using a logic fallacy. You confuse make a cause effect argument out of mere coincidence.

EDIT:
In summation:
1. You failed to properly observe the data, there is no actual correlation.
2. You fell into a logical fallacy known as "correlation does not imply causation"
Read about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cum_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

 

[Shingoshi]

What that means, is the G43 is the limiting factor there, not the ICH10R. When you've found an Intel board with more than 8Gbs that doesn't have an ICH10R, I'd like to see it. You didn't contradict me. I said you can't have more than 8GBs without an ICH10R. Find any board with any Northbridge, with 16GBs of memory, and WITHOUT the ICH10R, and we can all go home and say that you're right.

Shingoshi

 

[taltamir]

I don't need to because I know how northbridge and southbridge works.
Read the wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cum_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

Example of the fallacy:

believing that happenstance implies causal relation (aka as fallacy of causation versus correlation: assumes that correlation implies causation).
Example
Argument: More cows die in India in the summer months. More ice cream is consumed in summer months. Therefore, the consumption of ice cream in the summer months is killing Indian cows.
Problem: It is hotter in the summer, resulting in both the death of cows and the consumption of ice cream.

To put this in perspective:
Argument: All the boards you can find on newegg supporting 16GB of ram have ICH10R. Therefore the ICH10R is a required component of having 16GB of ram.
Problem: The latest northbridge is P45 and its derivates. The P45/derivatives are the only northbridges that can handle 16GB of ram instead of 8. The P45 is only compatible with the ICH10/R. Both are caused by having a P45, just like the summer heat causes cows to die and people to eat icecream, and are not directly related.

There is no commercial or logical reason to use obsolete IO hubs (southbridges) in boards running the latest northbridge. So they were not even made compatible by the company selling both (intel).

Now causation COULD imply correlation, and there is certainly room for performing experiments to find out if correlated things are causing each other. But in this case I can tell you they are not based on my technical knowledge of the subject.

 

[Shingoshi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core_2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_chipsets

Made for good reading. My point still stands.
You can't have a 16GB board without an ICH10R Southbridge.
Shingoshi

 

[footballrunner800]

The reason is because there is no p45 board without ich10. Like taltamir said its the northbridge the one that determines what memory is compatible because thats where the memory controller is at. I assure you that if a p45 board with ich7 came out it would still support 16gb ram.

 

[taltamir]

YOU CAN, but they are not going most likely not going to make one.
And we established you can have 8GB max boards with ICH10R as well.

 

[Shingoshi]

I'm sorry guys. But I thought we were talking about reality, not what if. I'll give that you may be right about the ICH7. But the reality, is that among those boards which have 16GBs of ram, they don't include any other chip than the ICH10R. And since it doesn't make any sense to talk about combinations that don't exist, what's the point. So you want to be right. Fine. Make a P45 board with a ICH7 Southbridge. Until then, you can't buy one. And if Intel will never make one, you're still faced with the same reality.

You can't have a 16GB board without an ICH10R Southbridge.
Shingoshi

 

[Shingoshi]

The start of this thread was about an entire set of 4x4GB dimms. I don't think he was looking to use only two dimms. And ok. Let's say that he was wanting a board with ONLY two dimm slots, while providing 8GBs of memory. You're right, he could use the ICH7 Southbridge.

I searched Newegg. Here are the results.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...StoreType=&srchInDesc=

But I don't think he wanted to buy this memory (at almost $700), so he could only use two of the four dimms in the set. In fact, I can't think of any high-end user who would want any of these boards.
Shingoshi

 

[Shingoshi]

Time out here! All of you can laugh at me over this. I have this old 1990's Mattel Barbie computer. A friend of mine gave it to me out of frustration. I put my Gigabyte 73PVM-S2 in that box. Now realize that case has no expansions slots. Zip, zero NONE!

But I turned it into a functional system, including a RAID1 1TB Samsung F1 drive set. I run Linux, as I may have mentioned here before. And after thinking about it, I might actually want one of these boards. 8GBs in a box with a handle that looks like a BoomBox, is just too funny. So funny in fact, that I just might do it.

Of these boards, these two seem like good prospects.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813500022
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813121381

Ok now. Everyone in unison. Start laughing!
Shingoshi

 

[Xed]

Ffs you are arguing semantics.

All the boards currently available that officially support 16GB use an ICH10/R. That doesn't mean the southbridge has anything to do with the board supporting it. It simply means it's the latest Intel sb.

 

[Shingoshi]

So would it be fair to say you can't have 16GBs without the latest Intel Southbridge, which happens to be an ICH10R? Was there ever a Southbridge before the ICH10R that officially supported 16GBs (in four slots)? I really don't know. Had anyone even conceived of having 16GBs in only four slots before? So I'm just asking, not asserting here.

Shingoshi

 

[taltamir]

Was there ever a Southbridge before the ICH10R that officially supported 16GBs (in four slots)

yes, all of them. they just aren't used that way, but they support it.

 

[tcsenter]

Originally posted by: footballrunner800
The reason is because there is no p45 board without ich10. Like taltamir said its the northbridge the one that determines what memory is compatible because thats where the memory controller is at.

Actually, the Southbridge can indeed have an impact on addressable memory space. The Southbridge must support decoding of certain downstream (or is it upstream, or both? I forget now) memory addresses/cycles or be able to forward them to a fixed device/range. If the Southbridge can't decode or reach the upper ranges, one of two things must happen:

- Anything the Southbridge may need to reach or transact with must reside somewhere below top of physical memory (e.g. under 4GB)
- Top of physical memory must be kept within those limits

I have no idea what these limits are for ICH9 or ICH10.

 

[Shingoshi]

That's what I had been thinking. That the Northbridge determines what type of memory (ddr2 or ddr3) you can use. But the Southbridge determines the (32-bit or 64-bit) address space the system can have. I think that's why the ICH10R is being used for the i7 (and some server) chips. Take a look at the boards that are available now for the i7, and you will see very large address spaces made available.

Shingoshi

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Shingoshi
That's what I had been thinking. That the Northbridge determines what type of memory (ddr2 or ddr3) you can use. But the Southbridge determines the (32-bit or 64-bit) address space the system can have. I think that's why the ICH10R is being used for the i7 (and some server) chips. Take a look at the boards that are available now for the i7, and you will see very large address spaces made available.

Shingoshi

That is NOT what he said. the northbridge determines BOTH, the southbridge can LIMIT (according to him) the max size, but the northbridge is the main determiner. (according to him), you are just misinterpreting him,.

 

[tcsenter]

Originally posted by: Shingoshi
That's what I had been thinking. That the Northbridge determines what type of memory (ddr2 or ddr3) you can use. But the Southbridge determines the (32-bit or 64-bit) address space the system can have.

Not quite. The CPU MMU and host address bus define maximum possible physical and virtual address space. The memory controller (no matter where its located) defines maximum possible byte-addressable RAM support, subject to implementation factors such as # of RAM slots put on the board.

The Southbridge can impose practical limits, but usually does not. In cases where it does, the work-around is to implement things like bounce buffers (if supported) or keep device memory below 4GB.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: tcsenter

Originally posted by: footballrunner800
The reason is because there is no p45 board without ich10. Like taltamir said its the northbridge the one that determines what memory is compatible because thats where the memory controller is at.

Actually, the Southbridge can indeed have an impact on addressable memory space. The Southbridge must support decoding of certain downstream (or is it upstream, or both? I forget now) memory addresses/cycles or be able to forward them to a fixed device/range. If the Southbridge can't decode or reach the upper ranges, one of two things must happen:

- Anything the Southbridge may need to reach or transact with must reside somewhere below top of physical memory (e.g. under 4GB)
- Top of physical memory must be kept within those limits

I have no idea what these limits are for ICH9 or ICH10.

that would depend on the method the southbridge uses to access data.
Even if it directly address the ram location to which it is sending data, there is no problem as long as the address space is kept below 4GB, and it IS.
Remember that in windows southbridge devices reserve ram address spaces from the 4GB barrier going DOWN. While ram is addressed from 0 going up. On a 32bit system it simply leaves the last of the ram unassigned if it hits the "reserved space", in 64bit it skips it to go to the 4GB barrier and count from it upwards.

Now I might be wrong here, but I see no reason why this should ever be a problem