New Development Job, No Degree. Any Advice?

[daMachine]

OK,

I have a friend (yes, really not me) who has maybe 4 years of web development experience and java experience working for a large company plus a few years before that freelancing. He is looking for other work opportunities as he dislikes the new management.

Now, the big issue for him is he does not have a degree only actual experience working for this large company (5,000+ employees) and his freelance work.

I can't really say much about his specific skill set, so I'm just looking for any general guidance.

He sent out a number of resumes, but only a few bites (out of state) have come back. He lives in a tech rich area, so these jobs are definitely available locally, just no bites.

Is this to be expected based on him lacking a degree? If lack of degree is the likely culprit, how willing are companies to hire experienced developers without degrees? Are we talking, 5/10 employers would rule him out immediately or something better, worse?

Just trying to help a friend out, so please no flaming if I'm a bit vague with some of this.

Thanks.

 

[beginner99]

Well he could probably find a job as a low paid code monkey. question is, if that is what he wants..(probably not).

If he applied for senior developer positions or similar...no wonder he did not get much feedback.

IMHO experience is worth a lot but even better would be to get a degree. For every job he applies there will be 5 others with the same experience but also with a degree. Simple as that. I'm pretty sure he would have to make a sacrifice in terms of salary and/or working conditions.

Management here is stupid too but in a large company as a simple programmer/developer you should be able to just ignore it as you don't have to actually deal with the idiots making the idiotic decisions directly.

So my suggestion. Keep looking but expect to stay for some time.

 

[daMachine]

Thanks beginner99.

I don't think he wants to commit the time for a full BS degree. Would an associates do anything for him with the experience he has or is the BS really the minimum worth doing?

Thanks again.

 

[Markbnj]

Degrees are more important now than they've ever been, I think, but good development talent is still pretty rare, and probably always will be. There are companies that will only hire with a degree due to HR policy, and there are those that specifically state that "equivalent experience" is acceptable. Even in the former cases there is often latitude for someone with demonstrable skills that the company has need of.

So have your friend sign up on Dice and check the listings there. Most of them state whether equivalent experience is acceptable. Don't send resumes to companies that state a degree as a requirement if you don't have one. You won't get in over the transom that way. To get past that requirement you usually need to be presented by a recruiter or hired in through a recommendation.

In general the lack of a degree should be no impediment at all to securing a position, as long as the experience and skills are a fit.

 

[sourceninja]

It's about volume. I recently found a new job and had to send a few hundred resumes to find one I liked. I have no degree and just about 15 years exp. Just keep spamming out resumes.

 

[smackababy]

Not having a degree can hinder finding a job, but the experience is invaluable. Companies, at least for me, were more willing to work with me (I don't have a degree either) because I had experience. I also spent a ton of time learning everything I could, did great in technical interviews, and generally had great interview skills as well.

He will not get a lead development role with 4 years experience. In almost every company I dealt with, they wanted someone with at least at least 7+ years for those roles. Mid level positions are what he should target. Talking with a good recruiter could also help. As far as Dice goes, he should use it, but don't make your resume searchable and be careful to which postings you respond to. A lot of them are recruiters and they will never stop calling you.

He should also have multiple people take a look at his resume. That is the first thing they see and it has to be well written, interesting, and highlight his skills.

It is also about volume. I just recently found a new job as well. I sent out probably 200 resumes, and had maybe 20 interviews total. If they are willing to call you, they are willing to hire you though. So, make sure you can interview well. Quite a few of the technical interviews I had, the guys told me they have trouble finding good developers. Colleges seem to be just pushing out java code monkeys and not good developers.

 

[Merad]

If they actually have previous job experience coding then they probably have a chance, but they'll need a strong portfolio to show off what they've done.

Even so I'd hazard a guess that 75% of companies probably aren't very interested in people without degrees at the moment, and unless he's just a genius it will probably severely hurt his opportunities for advancement.

 

[sunilmkt]

Your friends is having experience in web development. so i can assume he is looking for senior position. For applying senior position Technical degree must be.. For growth perspective it is also valuable..........

 

[Leafy]

I have about 4 years of web development experience, no degree, and was just hired at a startup.

My job finding strategy cut out people like Google, Facebook, etc. Since they get so many applications, it's silly to apply to them because they can do things like cut out all people without a degree and still have a huge applicant pool to choose from. I applied to companies with between 5 and 50 people.

In this industry in particular, the degree as a signal of knowledge is very attenuated. A lot of places ask for a degree or four years of equivalent experience. The very fact that FizzBuzz exists is proof of the fact that the signal of a degree carries less information than one would expect. If you're someone like me without a degree, you should be emphasizing what you do have - namely experience and knowledge.

 

[Leros]

I have about 4 years of web development experience, no degree, and was just hired at a startup.

My job finding strategy cut out people like Google, Facebook, etc. Since they get so many applications, it's silly to apply to them because they can do things like cut out all people without a degree and still have a huge applicant pool to choose from. I applied to companies with between 5 and 50 people.

In this industry in particular, the degree as a signal of knowledge is very attenuated. A lot of places ask for a degree or four years of equivalent experience. The very fact that FizzBuzz exists is proof of the fact that the signal of a degree carries less information than one would expect. If you're someone like me without a degree, you should be emphasizing what you do have - namely experience and knowledge.

That was going to me my suggestion. Look around at startups. They're looking for capable people and generally don't care about your education. They just want people that can get stuff done.

Does your friend of portfolio of work that he can show off. It's one thing to talk about past experience but to be able to show someone a working system is much more impressive.

To the FizzBuzz remark. I've seen some very smart people who have degrees from prestigous schools do a great job on the oral interview and then completely fail on simple programs like FizzBuzz. It's rather interesting.

 

[fyb3r]

OK,

I have a friend (yes, really not me) who has maybe 4 years of web development experience and java experience working for a large company plus a few years before that freelancing. He is looking for other work opportunities as he dislikes the new management.

Now, the big issue for him is he does not have a degree only actual experience working for this large company (5,000+ employees) and his freelance work.

I can't really say much about his specific skill set, so I'm just looking for any general guidance.

He sent out a number of resumes, but only a few bites (out of state) have come back. He lives in a tech rich area, so these jobs are definitely available locally, just no bites.

Is this to be expected based on him lacking a degree? If lack of degree is the likely culprit, how willing are companies to hire experienced developers without degrees? Are we talking, 5/10 employers would rule him out immediately or something better, worse?

Just trying to help a friend out, so please no flaming if I'm a bit vague with some of this.

Thanks.

Perhaps I could help. Im 24, no degree (2 years of college and had to quit for work), and currently working as a system administrator and over the last year landed 3 contracts as a pentester. I live out in the DFW Area.

So far I have not had any trouble finding work, Ive got 4 years experience under my belt for 2 different companies (including where I am now). From what ive seen, its mostly based on experience. Every CIO ive spoken with at multiple companies (including TI) has told me that they prefer someone who has the experience, certs, and is trainable rather than someone with little experience and a nice degree. It also comes from your resume and having great reviews from your past employers.


Also, since it is the programming field you are asking about, web developers are a dime a dozen. Its honestly one of the easiest programming fields to get into and nearly everyone in the IT industry has experience in it. The best thing is to set yourself apart from others, so rather than being just a basic web developer you should gain experience with building SQL databases and having knowledge of website security and networking, so instead of just being the coding guy you also have the potential to not be the guy responsible for writing flawed code.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[smackababy]

Perhaps I could help. Im 24, no degree (2 years of college and had to quit for work), and currently working as a system administrator and over the last year landed 3 contracts as a pentester. I live out in the DFW Area.

So far I have not had any trouble finding work, Ive got 4 years experience under my belt for 2 different companies (including where I am now). From what ive seen, its mostly based on experience. Every CIO ive spoken with at multiple companies (including TI) has told me that they prefer someone who has the experience, certs, and is trainable rather than someone with little experience and a nice degree. It also comes from your resume and having great reviews from your past employers.


Also, since it is the programming field you are asking about, web developers are a dime a dozen. Its honestly one of the easiest programming fields to get into and nearly everyone in the IT industry has experience in it. The best thing is to set yourself apart from others, so rather than being just a basic web developer you should gain experience with building SQL databases and having knowledge of website security and networking, so instead of just being the coding guy you also have the potential to not be the guy responsible for writing flawed code.

Just my 2 cents.

I disagree with the web developers being a dime a dozen. If you said bad web developers are a dime a dozen, I'd agree. Colleges are pushing through students with Java and it is showing. A good programmer is hard to find. That is why every job I've ever interviewed for (as a developer) had a technical interview. Having the skills you listed, and any extra skills, are very viable and can help you land a job, but just being a good developer is step one. Most employers don't have if you have experience building / maintaining databases or an extensive knowledge of web security if you're applying for a software developer position and can't program.

 

[Markbnj]

Also, since it is the programming field you are asking about, web developers are a dime a dozen. Its honestly one of the easiest programming fields to get into and nearly everyone in the IT industry has experience in it.

That might be true if you're willing to consider someone who can only write html and javascript on the client a developer. I'm not. In all my jobs I've had to work at every level of the stack, from the database up.

 

[OSULugan]

So, after reading the FizzBuzz thread, I had some fun incorporating the FizzBuzz problem with a recursion answer:

void fizzBuzz(int countToNumber,int fizzNumber, int buzzNumber) {

	bool fizzBuzzed = false;

	if (countToNumber > 1) {
		fizzBuzz(countToNumber - 1, fizzNumber, buzzNumber);
		if ((countToNumber % fizzNumber) == 0) {
			fizzBuzzed = true;
			cout << "Fizz";
		}
		if ((countToNumber % buzzNumber) == 0) {
			fizzBuzzed = true;
			cout << "Buzz";
		}
		if (!fizzBuzzed) {
			cout << countToNumber;
		}
	}
	else {
		cout << countToNumber;
	}
	cout << "\n";
}

int main() {

	fizzBuzz(100,3,5);

	return 0;
}

 

[smackababy]

So, after reading the FizzBuzz thread, I had some fun incorporating the FizzBuzz problem with a recursion answer:

void fizzBuzz(int countToNumber,int fizzNumber, int buzzNumber) {

	bool fizzBuzzed = false;

	if (countToNumber > 1) {
		fizzBuzz(countToNumber - 1, fizzNumber, buzzNumber);
		if ((countToNumber % fizzNumber) == 0) {
			fizzBuzzed = true;
			cout << "Fizz";
		}
		if ((countToNumber % buzzNumber) == 0) {
			fizzBuzzed = true;
			cout << "Buzz";
		}
		if (!fizzBuzzed) {
			cout << countToNumber;
		}
	}
	else {
		cout << countToNumber;
	}
	cout << "\n";
}

int main() {

	fizzBuzz(100,3,5);

	return 0;
}

I don't think this works.

 

[OSULugan]

I don't think this works.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Cogman]

I don't think this works.

Looks fine to me. Yes, the iterative approach is cleaner and faster, but there isn't anything really wrong with this solution.

 

[Leafy]

So, after reading the FizzBuzz thread, I had some fun incorporating the FizzBuzz problem with a recursion answer:

void fizzBuzz(int countToNumber,int fizzNumber, int buzzNumber) {

	bool fizzBuzzed = false;

	if (countToNumber > 1) {
		fizzBuzz(countToNumber - 1, fizzNumber, buzzNumber);
		if ((countToNumber % fizzNumber) == 0) {
			fizzBuzzed = true;
			cout << "Fizz";
		}
		if ((countToNumber % buzzNumber) == 0) {
			fizzBuzzed = true;
			cout << "Buzz";
		}
		if (!fizzBuzzed) {
			cout << countToNumber;
		}
	}
	else {
		cout << countToNumber;
	}
	cout << "\n";
}

int main() {

	fizzBuzz(100,3,5);

	return 0;
}

The obvious next interview question is "Talk a little bit about the memory performance of this algorithm." (C lacks tail end recursion.)

 

[OSULugan]

The obvious next interview question is "Talk a little bit about the memory performance of this algorithm." (C lacks tail end recursion.)

I think you've missed the point. After reading the FizzBuzz article you linked to earlier, they also reference asking for applicants to right a recursive function to solve a "real world problem". I was just having some fun pushing the two together.

 

[beginner99]

In this industry in particular, the degree as a signal of knowledge is very attenuated. A lot of places ask for a degree or four years of equivalent experience. The very fact that FizzBuzz exists is proof of the fact that the signal of a degree carries less information than one would expect. If you're someone like me without a degree, you should be emphasizing what you do have - namely experience and knowledge.

Some of the points about the FizzBuzz link are probably valid others less. Recursion? I think I've used it exactly once in a real-world problem in a class of which I'm not specially proud of.

My CS degree is not a normal CS degree, sorry don't know the proper english word for this (not american). It's basically when you already have a degree you can do a second once but without having to attend any basic level courses like math or so. So you can achieve it a lot faster but it also has less value than a real one.
Anyway, if I were a manager and needed to higher a programmer I would not consider any of my classmates (except 1 who already had experience like me) and hence anyone else with the same degree and no experience. They were just clueless and would have had there issues with fizzbuzz.

The problem remains. For most positions there will be applicants with a degree and experience and then not having a degree hurts your chances big time.

 

[Markbnj]

The obvious next interview question is "Talk a little bit about the memory performance of this algorithm." (C lacks tail end recursion.)

I don't think anyone would create this implementation if they were serious about memory performance, or anything else for that matter. OSULogan was obviously just having fun with the FizzBuzz question.

 

[smackababy]

Care to elaborate?

Totally blanked and missed this part:

fizzBuzz(countToNumber - 1, fizzNumber, buzzNumber);

I was thinking recursion not found. This would run once and be done.


Also, I've used recursion in a fairly elegant way in a coding interview. The solution was to to output the complete list, in alphabetical order, of all the possibilities of letters of a phone number entered. Apparently, I was the only person who had done that though.

 

[ringtail]

seems to me those jobs mostly moved to India

 

[Leros]

seems to me those jobs mostly moved to India

That may be true. Software jobs are plentiful in the US if you're talented. There are more openings than skilled developers to fill them.

It's probably getting hard for average or sub-average people to find work in the software industry. That sort of labor pool is plentiful overseas and is much cheaper than labor in the US.

 

[Markbnj]

seems to me those jobs mostly moved to India

According to a recent report the U.S. unemployment rate for software developers right now is about 2.7%. Statistically that's just about full employment.