New Drivers for NVIDIA GFFX are out.

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
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From an article on THG targeted at the new 3Dmark '03 benchmark. Has severely increased the performance in most areas, even doubled in some. Well, I guess Nvidia is going to save its A$$ with repeated releases of improved drivers. Kudos to Nvidia for the speedy release of the new drivers. Like they had any choice in the matter.

The graph shows the 9700 pro against the GFFX 5800U with v42.63 drivers and v42.68 drivers. BIG difference.

Click Here for the article on THG
 

Bovinicus

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2001
3,145
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Glad to hear that they are improving performance. However, the performance advantage of the GeForceFX is still only 11% in this case for about 40% more money. Also, this isn't with FSAA or AF enabled, which is where the 9700 Pro really shines. It's good they're on the right track, but they still have a lot of optimizing to do.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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word has it on the 3dmark forms that the new drivers have good reason for getting a higher score. i havent tested thinks myself but am interested to know if what they are talking about on the furturemark forums is true. also, not i am not sure if it is an issue on the gefrocefx or not, so please don't take this for more than it is worth:


futuremark
 

gururu

Platinum Member
Jul 16, 2002
2,402
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thats pretty crazy if true...and quite shady. terrible to think about.

But I doubt it is a ploy, since Nvidia is supposedly taking the 'high' road in criticizing 3DMark2003.

but i disagree with their sentiment about using gaming benchmarks exclusively. why? because the two cards are
probably going to switch pole position depending on the game. it gets too complicated and it isn't any fun talking about Unreal, warcraft, age of myth, splinter cell, and UT scores if it becomes a tradeoff. rather, its more enjoyable to say,
"oh you get 2200 marks? Oh well I get 5000 marks...hah hahahhaaahahahaa!" Its faster and much easier. And the thrill is cheaper.

I love 3dmark2003. I love it. pure and simple. I also love the 9700 and the FX too. and I am glad that the new drivers made
the FX a more competitive product...at least by 3dmark2003 standards. oh what a wonderful life. oh what joy gaming is.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
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Totally agree. I just hope both companies stay super competitive. It ultimately benefits us poor consumers when they have their price wars.
So even if you dont like nvidia, (im not saying you dont, but for those that do) root for them to make their new beast, well, a beast so ATI will stay on their toes. Im sure they dont want to lose their technological edge.

I think we are going to see an substantial performance increase with every new driver release from Nvidia. Those guys really do know how to tweak those transistors.

Keys
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
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lol, nvidia isn't takeing the high road, the are sqirming under pressure. even if the fx beats the 9700 straght up it costs a lot more to do it. on top of that, were the real money is at is those 9500's that score so much more than anything else on the market for 150$. as for your sarcasm about the imporance of 3dmark, sure there are a lot of idoits, and was many nVidiots, that would sweer by 3dmark; that was allways foolish, this is nothing new. however calling 3dmark usless is absurd, i could care less how my sytem runs the benchmark today but in a year or so down the line the story will be different. sure you can argue that devlopers will find beter ways to do things, optimisation happend when compareing the prior 3dmark to games aswell. regardless, the improvment in 3dmark did play a factor in my purchase of a geforce3 instead of a gefoce2 ultra for 30$. i think i made in the long run i think i made a good choice and the guys at futuremark helped me make that choice, i see no reason to bail out on them now. on top of that, if we ditch 3dmark, what do we have to even atempt to guage preformace the latest version of directx untell the games are already on the shelfs and the cards are already in our agp slots?
 

Orbius

Golden Member
Oct 13, 1999
1,037
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0
From what I've heard Nvidia is vehemently opposing 3dmark2003 because their Ti4xxx line obviously dont support pixel shaders 1.4 or 2.0 so cant run all the tests. And supposedly their forthcoming lineup of cards based on the FX line arent going to be full DX 9 either, so no wonder they're throwing a bitch fit.
There definitely is a place for 3dmark2003, I didnt hear Kyle and Tom bitching about 3dmark when the Geforce 3 was the only card that could the Nature Test, rather strange how its all being brought up now isnt it?
Silly Nvidia is up to their PR tricks again, and apparently with some paid lackeys in tow this time too!
 

nemesismk2

Diamond Member
Sep 29, 2001
4,810
5
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www.ultimatehardware.net
The simple fact is that 3dmark 2003 is useless for benchmarking different video cards due to it's use of different shader codes for different cards. With game benchmarking you always try to get a level playing field for the video cards your reviewing, however with 3dmark 2003 that's impossible.
 

Rand

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
11,071
1
81
Originally posted by: nemesismk2
The simple fact is that 3dmark 2003 is useless for benchmarking different video cards due to it's use of different shader codes for different cards. With game benchmarking you always try to get a level playing field for the video cards your reviewing, however with 3dmark 2003 that's impossible.

Maybe I'm dense but I'm not sure what your referring to..... are you referencing the fact that a board using PS 1.1 has to render more polygons then one using PS 1.4?

If so that hardly seems unfair, or imbalanced.... if PS 1.4 can compress light to alpha, stencil buffering, and diffuse/specular reflection using look up tables while PS 1.1 hardware cannot and must render it in 3 passes then it is obvious why it's going to be able to render the same scene using less polygons.
Why would one want to force the PS 1.4 capable hardware to render the scene less efficiently then it is capable of?

 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: Rand
Originally posted by: nemesismk2
The simple fact is that 3dmark 2003 is useless for benchmarking different video cards due to it's use of different shader codes for different cards. With game benchmarking you always try to get a level playing field for the video cards your reviewing, however with 3dmark 2003 that's impossible.

Maybe I'm dense but I'm not sure what your referring to..... are you referencing the fact that a board using PS 1.1 has to render more polygons then one using PS 1.4?

If so that hardly seems unfair, or imbalanced.... if PS 1.4 can compress light to alpha, stencil buffering, and diffuse/specular reflection using look up tables while PS 1.1 hardware cannot and must render it in 3 passes then it is obvious why it's going to be able to render the same scene using less polygons.
Why would one want to force the PS 1.4 capable hardware to render the scene less efficiently then it is capable of?

Because pixel shader 1.4 is rarely used in any game to date, and few games plan to use it. Its a synthetic benchmark in every sense of the word. Not to mention that early tests have shown the FX is actually faster even though it requires multiple passes (look at Carmack's Doom3 comments) to render the same scene.

Chiz
 

nemesismk2

Diamond Member
Sep 29, 2001
4,810
5
76
www.ultimatehardware.net
Originally posted by: chizow
Originally posted by: Rand
Originally posted by: nemesismk2
The simple fact is that 3dmark 2003 is useless for benchmarking different video cards due to it's use of different shader codes for different cards. With game benchmarking you always try to get a level playing field for the video cards your reviewing, however with 3dmark 2003 that's impossible.

Maybe I'm dense but I'm not sure what your referring to..... are you referencing the fact that a board using PS 1.1 has to render more polygons then one using PS 1.4?

If so that hardly seems unfair, or imbalanced.... if PS 1.4 can compress light to alpha, stencil buffering, and diffuse/specular reflection using look up tables while PS 1.1 hardware cannot and must render it in 3 passes then it is obvious why it's going to be able to render the same scene using less polygons.
Why would one want to force the PS 1.4 capable hardware to render the scene less efficiently then it is capable of?

Because pixel shader 1.4 is rarely used in any game to date, and few games plan to use it. Its a synthetic benchmark in every sense of the word. Not to mention that early tests have shown the FX is actually faster even though it requires multiple passes (look at Carmack's Doom3 comments) to render the same scene.

Chiz

I agree with your comments 100% because I was just about to post almost the same message.

DOWN WITH 3DMARK, USE REAL GAMES FOR BENCHMARKING!
 

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
5,079
40
91
Originally posted by: Bovinicus
Glad to hear that they are improving performance. However, the performance advantage of the GeForceFX is still only 11% in this case for about 40% more money. Also, this isn't with FSAA or AF enabled, which is where the 9700 Pro really shines. It's good they're on the right track, but they still have a lot of optimizing to do.

I'd have to agree. The whole reason (IMHO) to buy a card as fast as these cards is to run with maxed out AA and Aniso filtering. I think even a Ti4200 will run any game at 1024x1280 at above 60 frames/sec if AA and Aniso are not enabled (correct me if I am wrong).

I know that the other reason is to buy into future-proofness, but I can't really justify paying so much more for one of the cards given a roughly equivalent feature in these cards. I'm not sure if one game yet has used Dx9 functions and when the first such game will come out.
 

Rand

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
11,071
1
81
Originally posted by: chizow
Because pixel shader 1.4 is rarely used in any game to date, and few games plan to use it. Its a synthetic benchmark in every sense of the word. Not to mention that early tests have shown the FX is actually faster even though it requires multiple passes (look at Carmack's Doom3 comments) to render the same scene.

Chiz

Because pixel shader 1.4 is rarely used in any game to date, and few games plan to use it.
Doom 3 does not count as a future game I presume?
I also presume that Tiger Wood 2003 does not count as a present game? (It's interesting that nVidia claims Tiger Woods uses PS 1.1, whereas the devloeprs claim PS 1.1 is only a fallback for non PS 1.4 capable hardware)
Their 2 quick examples of prominent games.

While I'm hardly a fan of 3DMark, the usage of PS 1.4 I do support.
I agree that it's seldom used in currently available games, but 3DMark 2003 isnt intended to simulate current games, it's intended to simulate future games.
In the future I expect PS 1.4 to play a significant role, as it's more flexible then PS 1.1 without the extra overhead and the requirement of FP paths of PS 2.0 which should ensure that it many cases PS 1.4 code will be much faster then PS 2.0 can be.
Virtually all upcoming GPU's should support PS 1.4, leaving only the GF3/4 as shader capable GPU's without PS 1.4 support.

PS 2.0 hardware would be better off rendering to PS 1.4 over PS 1.1 due to the flexibility, and when the capabilities of PS 2.0 are not needed it'd be faster to go to PS 1.4 so as to utilize less overhead and add the ability to use the integer pipes rather then the slower/more flexible FP pipes requires for PS 2.0 as long as the extra precicion in the FP pipes arent required which shouldnt be the case in many situations.

It's noteable that Doom3, which is probably the biggest upcoming game utilizes PS 1.4 heavily for the ARB2 and R200 paths... given that the ARB2 path will likely be the default for most renderers, and the Doom3 engine will almost assuredly see usage in many games I think that adds credence to the idea that PS 1.4 will indeed be used in future games.
I certainly can't imagine that everyone using the Doom3 engine is going to force the hardware to do lighting in multiple passes when any PS 1.4 compliant GPU should be capable of doing so in a single pass in most cases. Not to mention Doom3 based games will likely utilize shadow creation heavily which is rather hard to do effectively without PS 1.4


Personally, my largest issue with their shader code is why their not using PS 1.3 as a fallback instead of PS 1.1
Another issue is the fact that their forcing all shading to be done on the GPU even in cases in which it would be more effective to leave the CPU to handle it. In GT2 & GT3 their forcing the GPU to do the same shader ops over and over for every character rather then duplicating the results over from 1 to another.... in so doing their creating a benchmark that is VERY graphcis card limited... which is arguably a good thing. But their also doing ensuring that the rendering is not representative of real world games that are naturally going to use the most efficient means available to them not that which pushes the GPU the hardest.

Yet anpther problem is that GT1 is primarily single textured. I think if you took all the hundreds of games released in the past year and those games due to be released in the future, the games with single-texturing you could count on one hand.

I have other issues with 3DMark, but most of the others are nothing new and existed in 3DMark2001 as well.
The fact that their much hyped 'Nature' tests bare not even the faintest resemblance to any scenes frequesntly used in games is not the least of those.


Noteably, the frame based rendering, ability to pick any frame from any test and do visual comparisons, and the filtering comparison tools are VERY good components of 3DMark03 however.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Umm, Rand? Don't take this the wrong way, but......
What in the name of all that's Holy are you talking about?
I'm sorry, but I got up to like the 8th paragraph or something in your post and just couldn't take it anymore

Anyway, what did you thing of the benchies in 3dmark '03?
Flat out performance I mean. Regardless of Pixel shader versions.
I think Nvidia induced a nice improvement over their initial release of the GFFX card.

Thanks,

Keys
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: Rand
Originally posted by: chizow
Because pixel shader 1.4 is rarely used in any game to date, and few games plan to use it. Its a synthetic benchmark in every sense of the word. Not to mention that early tests have shown the FX is actually faster even though it requires multiple passes (look at Carmack's Doom3 comments) to render the same scene.

Chiz

Because pixel shader 1.4 is rarely used in any game to date, and few games plan to use it.
Doom 3 does not count as a future game I presume?
I also presume that Tiger Wood 2003 does not count as a present game? (It's interesting that nVidia claims Tiger Woods uses PS 1.1, whereas the devloeprs claim PS 1.1 is only a fallback for non PS 1.4 capable hardware)
Their 2 quick examples of prominent games.

While I'm hardly a fan of 3DMark, the usage of PS 1.4 I do support.
I agree that it's seldom used in currently available games, but 3DMark 2003 isnt intended to simulate current games, it's intended to simulate future games.
In the future I expect PS 1.4 to play a significant role, as it's more flexible then PS 1.1 without the extra overhead and the requirement of FP paths of PS 2.0 which should ensure that it many cases PS 1.4 code will be much faster then PS 2.0 can be.
Virtually all upcoming GPU's should support PS 1.4, leaving only the GF3/4 as shader capable GPU's without PS 1.4 support.

PS 2.0 hardware would be better off rendering to PS 1.4 over PS 1.1 due to the flexibility, and when the capabilities of PS 2.0 are not needed it'd be faster to go to PS 1.4 so as to utilize less overhead and add the ability to use the integer pipes rather then the slower/more flexible FP pipes requires for PS 2.0 as long as the extra precicion in the FP pipes arent required which shouldnt be the case in many situations.

It's noteable that Doom3, which is probably the biggest upcoming game utilizes PS 1.4 heavily for the ARB2 and R200 paths... given that the ARB2 path will likely be the default for most renderers, and the Doom3 engine will almost assuredly see usage in many games I think that adds credence to the idea that PS 1.4 will indeed be used in future games.
I certainly can't imagine that everyone using the Doom3 engine is going to force the hardware to do lighting in multiple passes when any PS 1.4 compliant GPU should be capable of doing so in a single pass in most cases. Not to mention Doom3 based games will likely utilize shadow creation heavily which is rather hard to do effectively without PS 1.4


Personally, my largest issue with their shader code is why their not using PS 1.3 as a fallback instead of PS 1.1
Another issue is the fact that their forcing all shading to be done on the GPU even in cases in which it would be more effective to leave the CPU to handle it. In GT2 & GT3 their forcing the GPU to do the same shader ops over and over for every character rather then duplicating the results over from 1 to another.... in so doing their creating a benchmark that is VERY graphcis card limited... which is arguably a good thing. But their also doing ensuring that the rendering is not representative of real world games that are naturally going to use the most efficient means available to them not that which pushes the GPU the hardest.

Yet anpther problem is that GT1 is primarily single textured. I think if you took all the hundreds of games released in the past year and those games due to be released in the future, the games with single-texturing you could count on one hand.

I have other issues with 3DMark, but most of the others are nothing new and existed in 3DMark2001 as well.
The fact that their much hyped 'Nature' tests bare not even the faintest resemblance to any scenes frequesntly used in games is not the least of those.


Noteably, the frame based rendering, ability to pick any frame from any test and do visual comparisons, and the filtering comparison tools are VERY good components of 3DMark03 however.

Although your arguments are valid, they simply don't justify your original statement that the use of PS 1.4 is a true test of future or even current gaming hardware requirements. In reality, a single GPU benefits from PS 1.4, the R200, and at this stage in its life, its a dated part that was simply too ambitious at its outset with no support from game developers. Considering that DX9 parts are here and on the horizon already, I highly doubt developers are going to continue writing optimized code for a single dated GPU (they obviously haven't embraced PS1.4 to this point). PS 2.0 (quality) will be the default for DX9 parts for DX9 games, but 1.1 or 1.3 (compatibility/performance) will still be the fallback for slower DX9 parts and non-DX9 compliant parts. Doom3 is one of the few games that features PS 1.4 prominently in their ARB2/R200 paths as you mentioned, however Carmack has already indicated that it will ONLY be the default renderer if said part performs best under it (non-nVidia). While your "majority" comparison holds true, we both know the ONLY game in town when it comes to running Doom3 is ATI vs. nVidia, so take your pick, its about 50/50. As for efficiency and overhead, he's also indicated that parts running PS 1.1 or 1.3 do not take any significant performance hits relative to PS 1.4 parts even though they require 3,4 or even 5 passes to render the same scene (due to Doom3's low poly count, framebuffer caching and the FP precision 1.4 allows simply isn't required).

There's other more glaring flaws, such as the completely unrealistic dependence upon GPU speed/features over CPU/platform performance. I've seen benches where a Celeron 1.1 with a 9500pro outperform a P4 3.06 with a GF4 Ti4600 by double. Now do you think thats a good indication of how future games perform? I've also seen similar specs with an 8500 (supports 1.4) vs. a 4600 (1.3) on a similar testbed and the 8500 performs at least 1000 points higher, yet the 4600 mops the floor with the 8500 regardles of whether its a current or future game. Its a broken benchmark, plain and simple.

Chiz
 

Spicedaddy

Platinum Member
Apr 18, 2002
2,305
75
91
I think Madden 2003 also uses PS 1.4... (added with the patch)

Personally, my largest issue with their shader code is why their not using PS 1.3 as a fallback instead of PS 1.1

Would it improve performance? From what I heard it wouldn't, which is why they stuck with 1.1... I have no idea if this is right though.



And another thing: it's not called GameMark 2003, it's called 3D Mark 2003. It's supposed to measure how well your video card performs, and how many features it supports, that's it. (and they did a pretty good job since a video card benchmark should not be CPU depent) I find it funny that people bash it because it doesn't represent their gaming performance when it was never supposed to do so.


I'll also make a prediction: nVidia's lower end FX cards will not be fully DX9 compliant like the FX 5800, which is why nVidia is preparing the table by trying to discredit 3D Mark 2003 from the start.
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: Spicedaddy
I think Madden 2003 also uses PS 1.4... (added with the patch)

Personally, my largest issue with their shader code is why their not using PS 1.3 as a fallback instead of PS 1.1

Would it improve performance? From what I heard it wouldn't, which is why they stuck with 1.1... I have no idea if this is right though.



And another thing: it's not called GameMark 2003, it's called 3D Mark 2003. It's supposed to measure how well your video card performs, and how many features it supports, that's it. (and they did a pretty good job since a video card benchmark should not be CPU depent) I find it funny that people bash it because it doesn't represent their gaming performance when it was never supposed to do so.


I'll also make a prediction: nVidia's lower end FX cards will not be fully DX9 compliant like the FX 5800, which is why nVidia is preparing the table by trying to discredit 3D Mark 2003 from the start.

No, the issue isn't whether or not 1.3 or 1.1 would've been the fallback, its that the scoring is weighted heavily in 1.4's favor b/c there is simply no 1.1. or 1.3 support. nVidia favors 1.3, but they still don't provide 1.1 as stated in their whitepapers.

As for the other comments, I'm not sure what you've been reading, but I guess you've never wondered why it states in big bright letters when you run it, 3dMarketing2k3 is:

The Gamer's Benchmark

If you read further into their propaganda, they claim how it will effectively show gamer's how tomorrow's games will run, when the coding of its engine has already been ripped to shreds by multiple sources for its lack of efficiency and unrealistic application in any real world apps.

I think you need to do some more research on what 3dmark2k3 claims it does vs. its accuracy in application.

Chiz
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: chizow
I've seen benches where a Celeron 1.1 with a 9500pro outperform a P4 3.06 with a GF4 Ti4600 by double. Now do you think thats a good indication of how future games perform?

sure, kinda like a voodoo5 6000 vs a geforce3 in 3dmark2k1 eh?

seruiously, the fetures being used in 3dmark are the current directx standards just as they have always been, how many and what games in the futre will actualy make use of them depends on way too many factors to get into. however 3dmark, as it always has been, is one complains atempt to make use of those standards in a future looking gameing relelated benchmark, and they are doing as good as if not a beter job than ever.
 

Spicedaddy

Platinum Member
Apr 18, 2002
2,305
75
91
Well, "Gamer's Benchmark" doesn't mean "Games Benchmark". As a gamer, I want it to measure my video card, nothing else. The 3D Marks are just that, a representation of your 3D hardware... If you want an impression of overall system performance, then look at the CPU Marks as well, or run PC Mark.


I don't understand what you're saying about not supporting 1.1... Doesn't it fall back to 1.1 in Game Tests 2 & 3?



Anyways, I'm not here to defend it. All I'm saying is it's definitely not an accurate representation of your gaming performance today, and who knows if it'll be for games in a year and a half... It is however a good way to see what technologies your hardware supports (even if they won't be used much in the future). The 3D Mark scale might not be accurate today, but it might be when all games require DX8 or 9.
 

Rand

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
11,071
1
81
Originally posted by: chizow
No, the issue isn't whether or not 1.3 or 1.1 would've been the fallback, its that the scoring is weighted heavily in 1.4's favor b/c there is simply no 1.1. or 1.3 support. nVidia favors 1.3, but they still don't provide 1.1 as stated in their whitepapers.
Chiz



How is the scoring weighted in favor of PS 1.4?
Certainly PS 1.4 has it's advantages, but those advantages would carry over to any game that utilized PS 1.4 so I see nothing wrong with supporting PS 1.4.
Also, what do you mean there is no support for PS 1.1 or 1.3?
In every test that non DX9 compliant hardware can run there is a fallback to PS 1.1.

Another question, what do you mean in saying nVidia doesnt "provide" PS 1.1?
If your implying the drivers don't support it then that's most definitely incorrect.
 

Rand

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
11,071
1
81
Originally posted by: Spicedaddy

I don't understand what you're saying about not supporting 1.1... Doesn't it fall back to 1.1 in Game Tests 2 & 3?

Of course, if they didnt then the GF3/4 wouldnt be able to render GT 2 & 3 as they both require PS to run.

GT1 uses no PS.
GT 2 & 3 use PS 1.4, or 1.1 if not supported.
GT4 uses PS 1.4 heavily, and a light sprinkle of PS 2.0
Fillrate test uses no PS.
Vertex Shaders test uses PS 1.1 exclusively.
PS 2.0 test uses PS 2.0 exclusively.
Ragdoll test uses PS 1.4, or 1.1 if not supported.
CPU tests use PS 1.1 exclusively (For some unknown reason FutureMark makes note that they exclude PS 1.4 even though it would improve performance in these tests)

I think that covers all of the benchmarkable tests....

Would it improve performance? From what I heard it wouldn't, which is why they stuck with 1.1... I have no idea if this is right though.

I've no idea, you may well be right. Naturally FutureMark won't open up their source code, and without being able to see that it's anyone's guess....
 

Rand

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
11,071
1
81
Another issue.... why do they force software VS in GT 1 on DX7 compliant hardware, even though the FF T&L pipeline could do the same job much faster?
 

Uclagamer_99

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2000
2,867
1
76
not to interrupt the discussion here...but are these drivers official and whql? or just beta drivers? nothing mentioned on nvidia.com yet
 

Socio

Golden Member
May 19, 2002
1,732
2
81
The latest is 4286 get it here: http://www.guru3d.com/files/

As for the GeForce FX

It no longer matters anyway;

From what I understand, talking to the people at Best Buy and CompUSA the GeForce FX will never make it to the store shelf. This is because according to both sources just about all the GeForces that will be made are already sold via pre-orders. No more will be made so basically if you have not preordered one already chances are you ain't getting one.




 
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