New headphones on a budget.....

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vbuggy

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2005
1,610
0
71
Being direct and it will undoubtedly upset the audiophiles, but Grado are for the deaf.

The design puts the drivers very close to the ear, and it works best for those people who already find it difficult to discern dynamic range in sound. Quite apart from the poor build quality (even on their flagships, which actually resemble high school woodworking projects) the outdated / poorly executed driver design means that you need to (again) really crank them up to get them going - which leads many people to the erroneous conclusion of 'they're really suitable for rock'.

You could actually say that they are definitely a kind of Beats - entirely marketing-driven phones - but for a different set. They sell on the basis of their anti-look to a certain type of guy. And those who think it sounds better than anything else in it's class are, for the above reason, almost certainly either going deaf, or are deaf but don't realise it.

Re: the HD215's, they're like HD280 Jr's. For $40 I'd say they're an excellent deal still.
 
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spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,846
1,492
126
Here are some Audio-Technica ATH-T400 on buydig.com for $30 with free shipping...

http://www.buydig.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=atht400



Audio-Technica's large-diameter 53 mm drivers deliver powerful and rich bass. A wide, adjustable headband assures long-wearing comfort; specially designed support system reduces pressure on the head. Plush over-the-ear earpads minimize sound leakage.

Wide, adjustable headband for long-wearing comfort
Large 53 mm drivers for powerful and rich bass
Specially designed support system reduces pressure on the head
Easy-to-adjust earcups for a comfortable fit
Plush over-the-ear earpads minimize sound leakage
Specifications:

Type Closed-back Dynamic
Driver Diameter 53 mm
Frequency Response 15 - 23,000 HzMaximum Input Power 1,600 mW
Sensitivity 105 dB/mW
Impedance 40 ohms
Weight 260 g
Cable 3.0 m/single-sided
Connector 3.5 mm (1/8") mini-stereo, gold-plated
Accessory Included Detachable 1/4" (6.3 mm) adapter
 
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hans030390

Diamond Member
Feb 3, 2005
7,326
2
76
Grados are way overpriced hipster douchbag plastic headphones. They shouldnt even be called headphones. Just slap some radio-shack speakers to your head and BAM! instant grados. I have no idea why people think these are the end all be all headphones! there is no quality or tech, they are really just speakers in a cheap plastic open shell. No design at all. rant off.

The Grado HP1000 is apparently legitimately good: http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=24.0;attach=22;image

Very clean in terms of resonance and ringing as well, if you look at the CSD response. I believe this was the first Grado headphone. Too bad it was not a sign of things to come.
 
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Whirlwind

Senior member
Nov 4, 2006
540
18
81
Last time I checked, you can't listen to those graphs.

Grados can sound awesome....you just have not tried the right amp
 

hans030390

Diamond Member
Feb 3, 2005
7,326
2
76
The only amp that might fix a Grado is a bad one. I'm sorry if you don't understand the usefulness of measurements when combined with subjective listening tests across a wide variety of gear and music.
 

Whirlwind

Senior member
Nov 4, 2006
540
18
81
In all due respect, I have listened to many headphones that have had very similar measurements, and none have sounded the same...and many do not even sound similar.

It is all about the synergy between the cans and amp and dac.

Measurements are a nice feature, but I would never buy a set of cans because they measure or are technically good.....heck with that......I will let my ears decide.

I will leave this thread on that comment....have a good day.
 

hans030390

Diamond Member
Feb 3, 2005
7,326
2
76
Synergy is an important factor, and I never said otherwise. Output impedance of an amp and the impedance curve of a headphone are a big part of this that many weren't aware of until recently (including myself), but that's still just one part of it all.

Also never said you can't enjoy what you enjoy, but the Grado headphones are pretty bad on most objective levels, and the fact they all measure so similarly across the product line is interesting to say the least.

Not all measurements are done the same way as well. Some are done better than others. I think the ones at Innerfidelity are good, but I'm not crazy about the compensation curve used, and I don't think they don't show differences between headphones as well as some other places do. They might also not specify something like which pads are used.

I've gone more to changstar.com lately for measurements. You can even see that the Grados on there measure fairly similarly (harder to find since the manufacturer is not listed), but they do have enough slight differences to give them unique characteristics. You have to take into account how frequency response, distortion, spectrum decay, wave response, etc. all affect what we hear.

I'm sure you will agree that Grado headphones do have a particular sound to them across the line. That is evident in measurements no matter where you look, and it seems to be the general consensus online as well (as trustworthy as that is...). They also have unique characteristics per headphone, which are noticeable when compared to other headphones in the line but less noticeable when compared to headphones that sound dramatically different. Again, measurements show this.

On the contrary to your point, I have heard many headphones that measure similarly and sound similar. I have also heard the opposite. You can even run into situations where QC is so poor at companies (Beyer, lately) that even the same model of headphone can sound different from unit to unit.

Correlating measurements to subjective impressions takes a lot of understanding and a bit of art (we don't, after all, know EVERYTHING about measuring headphones, but do know quite a bit). One cannot just look at a measurement of a headphone and be done with it...it's good to cross compare to see results from different measurement techniques, as I touched on earlier.

Unfortunately, not all of us have the opportunity to test out headphones easily, and they can cost a lot of money. It's pretty apparent that the audio industry is full of snake oil, myths/lies, and a whole lot of "audiophiles" that don't have a lick of objectivity in their bones (or are too objective and don't understand the subjective side). What, then, do I use as a reference point to make buying decisions? The vast majority of subjective impressions for audio gear tend to be noise from people that are more interested in feeling good about their purchase than actually being critical about the products on the market and not accepting under-engineered crap (most of the headphone industry).

Measurements aren't the end-all, be-all, but they serve a very useful function. It just takes a lot of time and learning to really understand all aspects of measurements, how those aspects contribute to the sound we hear, understand how different sources have different measurement methodologies and which of those best correlates to your hearing, and so on.

I get the appeal of Grado, and it's fine if someone likes that sound. It was the first major headphone I owned, and I loved it for a while. But they are just not up to par on any objective front, and they really started to fatigue me after a while. Now that I'm used to smoother, cleaner, and more neutral headphones, trying to switch back to something is nearly impossible. It's easier once your brain burns into the sound (let's not even get started about how often our brains fool us).

Someone's got to step in and make recommendations based on a reference point so that they can get a better picture of the headphone market landscape, which also helps when others are making subjective recommendations (easier to figure out their tastes and point of reference).
 

Gintaras

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2000
1,892
1
71
HiFiMan - HE-300



As for Grado, you can find some very mixed reviews - some do like, some don't...

Don't be fooled by the Grado: "made in USA".

These are made in Brooklyn in a sweatshop...there isn't even a sign: "Grado", just graffiti painted building...and mexican girls coming in and out...kind Taco Bell place....
 

Whirlwind

Senior member
Nov 4, 2006
540
18
81
Synergy is an important factor, and I never said otherwise. Output impedance of an amp and the impedance curve of a headphone are a big part of this that many weren't aware of until recently (including myself), but that's still just one part of it all.

Also never said you can't enjoy what you enjoy, but the Grado headphones are pretty bad on most objective levels, and the fact they all measure so similarly across the product line is interesting to say the least.

Not all measurements are done the same way as well. Some are done better than others. I think the ones at Innerfidelity are good, but I'm not crazy about the compensation curve used, and I don't think they don't show differences between headphones as well as some other places do. They might also not specify something like which pads are used.

I've gone more to changstar.com lately for measurements. You can even see that the Grados on there measure fairly similarly (harder to find since the manufacturer is not listed), but they do have enough slight differences to give them unique characteristics. You have to take into account how frequency response, distortion, spectrum decay, wave response, etc. all affect what we hear.

I'm sure you will agree that Grado headphones do have a particular sound to them across the line. That is evident in measurements no matter where you look, and it seems to be the general consensus online as well (as trustworthy as that is...). They also have unique characteristics per headphone, which are noticeable when compared to other headphones in the line but less noticeable when compared to headphones that sound dramatically different. Again, measurements show this.

On the contrary to your point, I have heard many headphones that measure similarly and sound similar. I have also heard the opposite. You can even run into situations where QC is so poor at companies (Beyer, lately) that even the same model of headphone can sound different from unit to unit.

Correlating measurements to subjective impressions takes a lot of understanding and a bit of art (we don't, after all, know EVERYTHING about measuring headphones, but do know quite a bit). One cannot just look at a measurement of a headphone and be done with it...it's good to cross compare to see results from different measurement techniques, as I touched on earlier.

Unfortunately, not all of us have the opportunity to test out headphones easily, and they can cost a lot of money. It's pretty apparent that the audio industry is full of snake oil, myths/lies, and a whole lot of "audiophiles" that don't have a lick of objectivity in their bones (or are too objective and don't understand the subjective side). What, then, do I use as a reference point to make buying decisions? The vast majority of subjective impressions for audio gear tend to be noise from people that are more interested in feeling good about their purchase than actually being critical about the products on the market and not accepting under-engineered crap (most of the headphone industry).

Measurements aren't the end-all, be-all, but they serve a very useful function. It just takes a lot of time and learning to really understand all aspects of measurements, how those aspects contribute to the sound we hear, understand how different sources have different measurement methodologies and which of those best correlates to your hearing, and so on.

I get the appeal of Grado, and it's fine if someone likes that sound. It was the first major headphone I owned, and I loved it for a while. But they are just not up to par on any objective front, and they really started to fatigue me after a while. Now that I'm used to smoother, cleaner, and more neutral headphones, trying to switch back to something is nearly impossible. It's easier once your brain burns into the sound (let's not even get started about how often our brains fool us).

Someone's got to step in and make recommendations based on a reference point so that they can get a better picture of the headphone market landscape, which also helps when others are making subjective recommendations (easier to figure out their tastes and point of reference).

Very nice write up, indeed.

I agree with the charts to a small degree.

I say small, because they can be soooo very deceiving, almost to the point as much as they can help.

For instance....Technically by measurements the Koss Portapros measure very close to the Grado PS500.

When listening to these two headphones....they sound nothing alike.....and the portapros are not in the same ball park in pretty much every aspect ......other than maybe the low end....which still is very muddy compared to the PS500.

Anyway, I guess measurements can be helpful, if used correctly....but I would never buy a headphone because of how it technically measures.
 

JAG87

Diamond Member
Jan 3, 2006
3,921
3
76
Lol. That's all I have to say about Grado.

If you want a good headphone on a budget, look at shure and denon. To get good sound from sennheiser and beyerdynamic you have to spend lots of money, their entry level and mid range offerings are very average.
 

at80eighty

Senior member
Jun 28, 2004
458
3
81
OP what type of music do you like? i lean more towards audio technica & denon, but ive found grados are decent for rock
 
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