New info leaked about the Xbox Scorpio doesn't indicate it is a new generation

HOOfan 1

Platinum Member
Sep 2, 2007
2,337
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81
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9zIvjH3S54

It's speculated that it will still be using Jaguar CPU cores, just at higher clocks. (4 year old CPU techology?)
Developers will not be allowed to release games for Scorpio only.
Native 4K doesn't seem to be the goal.
So it just sounds like a refresh of the Xbox One akin to the PS4 Pro, just a much bigger jump in GPU power.

As an owner of an Xbox One, I suppose I should be happy that games coming out in the future will work on my Xbox One. I like the idea of continuous backwards compatibility, but this just seems like a move which is going to force developers to develop for the lowest common denominator. What is going to compel them to create games with the highest possible fidelity they can reach on the Scorpio, when they are having to also develop for weaker consoles like Xbox One and PS4?

The rush to 4K is premature. Native 4K has just become achievable with PC graphics cards selling for more than entire consoles cost. I wish they would focus on highest visual fidelity at 1080p with locked 60fps gameplay.

Heck, the current generation of consoles hasn't even been able to achieve 1080p gaming across the board. Both PS4 and Xbox One have games running at 900p in some mode or another.
 

SteveGrabowski

Diamond Member
Oct 20, 2014
7,127
5,998
136
The rush to 4K is premature. Native 4K has just become achievable with PC graphics cards selling for more than entire consoles cost. I wish they would focus on highest visual fidelity at 1080p with locked 60fps gameplay.

Me too, but no one is going to put a $180 i5 in their consoles. So 30 fps it is, and will be next generation too.
 

Tweak155

Lifer
Sep 23, 2003
11,448
262
126
Was there a lot of expectation that it would be something outside of this? I feel like this was the expectation all along.

I will probably get one eventually, just probably not on release. I just got an XB1 Slim to replace the fat model I had mainly because I got it for a total of $100 or so after everything, and it is GoW themed which I like. Don't use it for 4K or HDR... yet.
 

KentState

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2001
8,397
393
126
MS in theory is already doing this with the Play Anywhere titles. I just see Scorpio as a stand alone console that is the middle ground between XB1/Slim and a higher end PC. The best outcome would be that games are no longer designed for the console first, but rather for the DX12 framework and optimized for the XB1, Scorpio and PC.
 

WhiteNoise

Golden Member
Jun 22, 2016
1,075
184
106
I don't know why I haven't sold my XBOne already. The thing never gets used. Considering most games I would play on the XBO I can already play on PC. I get the feeling I wasted all that money buying the One.

Back on topic, this is what I expected.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
Was there a lot of expectation that it would be something outside of this? I feel like this was the expectation all along.

I will probably get one eventually, just probably not on release. I just got an XB1 Slim to replace the fat model I had mainly because I got it for a total of $100 or so after everything, and it is GoW themed which I like. Don't use it for 4K or HDR... yet.

They originally said it was going to be native 4k games and of course that made gamers think it was going to be super powerful but yea it's just a slightly faster PS4 Pro which isn't a bad thing. I have a PS4 Pro and it definitely does make a difference visually if the developers take extra time to program for it.

The only issue I can think of is that Scorpio isn't going to have ESRAM and regular Xbox does so I wonder how much extra work will be to port it over. PS4 Pro doesn't have that type of issue.
 

HOOfan 1

Platinum Member
Sep 2, 2007
2,337
15
81
There was speculation among games media that the Scorpio would be next gen. Some developer stated on NeoGaf that the Scorpio is next gen. I'm watching the Kinda Funny Morning Show now and they are saying, so this will be Xbox Two...next gen.
 

razel

Platinum Member
May 14, 2002
2,337
90
101
Lots of click bait and bad info out there. What was leaked is a developer guide and smart speculation done by... drum roll... the Digital Foundry guys about what's required by the console to meet what the guide is saying.

It is not a new generation and thank god. MS is doing what Sony is doing. Why you buy a PS4 game, it works on all PS4 consoles. When you buy an xbox one (and arguably x360) game it will work on all xbox one consoles. To add to the speculation that means Scorpio is part of the XB1 one line meaning it's not next gen.

But who cares! It's still better and if they keep the price low like Sony did, I'm in. I also own a PS4Pro and for those mind blown by the difference of 1080P and 4K, you really want to have your TV calibrated. No need to hire an ISF tech. You can get close enough using the free THX Tune-up app. If you do your 1080 images will also improve. I'm not saying 4K is a waste, it just shouldn't be the same type of wow factor you get as going from SD to HD.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Lots of click bait and bad info out there. What was leaked is a developer guide and smart speculation done by... drum roll... the Digital Foundry guys about what's required by the console to meet what the guide is saying.

It is not a new generation and thank god. MS is doing what Sony is doing. Why you buy a PS4 game, it works on all PS4 consoles. When you buy an xbox one (and arguably x360) game it will work on all xbox one consoles. To add to the speculation that means Scorpio is part of the XB1 one line meaning it's not next gen.

But who cares! It's still better and if they keep the price low like Sony did, I'm in. I also own a PS4Pro and for those mind blown by the difference of 1080P and 4K, you really want to have your TV calibrated. No need to hire an ISF tech. You can get close enough using the free THX Tune-up app. If you do your 1080 images will also improve. I'm not saying 4K is a waste, it just shouldn't be the same type of wow factor you get as going from SD to HD.

This is exactly what I told people it would be, the same thing as the PS4 Pro in terms of how it fits into the ecosystem. It's a good thing, you don't have to buy Scorpio or the PS4 Pro if you don't want to, you aren't locked out of any games. The biggest factor going forward isn't 4k resolution, but HDR. A 1080p game with HDR would look vastly superior to an SDR 1080p game, the extra resolution is not that much of a jump in most respects. It is a bit more work for developers who now have 4 console performance targets with the XB1, PS4, Scorpio, and PS4 Pro which are not the same in terms of capabilities. Maybe close enough to take a shortcut or two but still not if you want to completely optimize the game for the console.
 
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rancherlee

Senior member
Jul 9, 2000
707
18
81
I wouldn't think there is much work to program one game for
2 different Xboxs. A game designed to pull 60fps on Scorpio should have no issues running 30fps+ CPU wise on XB1. I'm just hoping that if it's Jaguar/Puma+ they manage to get 2.4ghz+ out of it to assure 60fps most of the time, the PS4pro can't maintain 60fps in a few games clocked at 2.1ghz
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
I wouldn't think there is much work to program one game for
2 different Xboxs. A game designed to pull 60fps on Scorpio should have no issues running 30fps+ CPU wise on XB1. I'm just hoping that if it's Jaguar/Puma+ they manage to get 2.4ghz+ out of it to assure 60fps most of the time, the PS4pro can't maintain 60fps in a few games clocked at 2.1ghz

It is much more work when the memory configuration is completely different on the xbox. On the PS4 we are already having developers needing more time to get patches out for the pro in order to properly optimize it for the different capabilities. It seems like you could just release it like on pc and it will run however it runs but that's not how console games work. The game must have set frame rate and graphics options.
 

Lil Frier

Platinum Member
Oct 3, 2013
2,720
21
81
I'm confused, did people actually think Scorpio was a new generation? Microsoft announced the thing saying it wasn't that. They've been saying THE WHOLE TIME that games wouldn't be able to be Scorpio-exclusive. Complaining this isn't a new generation is like complaining my PC can run old games and new ones...it's a good thing.

As for the raw power, I'm not watching YouTube speculation to find out I don't care about opinion, because I already know I don't. It's going to be a strong console, priced like a strong console. I am probably most curious about how they approach online gaming and device input. They keep pushing Play Anywhere, but it doesn't make you pay for online gaming on PC, does it? If they put Halo on PC, and it's free-to-play online, but $60/year on Xbox, and the platforms are basically the same, who's picking the console at that point? And what kind of long-promised mouse+keyboard support will some? Will they lock down support while in-game, to keep things balanced, or make device-based matchmaking and let Xbox players use mouse and keyboard against PC players?
 
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cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
I just think too many people had it in their head that Scorpio would be more than it is. So many talked about all games being native 4k etc. I knew that wasn't going to be an option unless they priced it outrageously and changed the hardware.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
I just think too many people had it in their head that Scorpio would be more than it is. So many talked about all games being native 4k etc. I knew that wasn't going to be an option unless they priced it outrageously and changed the hardware.
Yea they can't price it over $399 because everything else will drop in price by then.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
I'm confused, did people actually think Scorpio was a new generation? Microsoft announced the thing saying it wasn't that. They've been saying THE WHOLE TIME that games wouldn't be able to be Scorpio-exclusive. Complaining this isn't a new generation is like complaining my PC can run old games and new ones...it's a good thing.

I think people aren't understanding what MS is trying to do because of changing dynamics of the console market.

Game developers wanted PS360 generation to last longer. Once the userbase reached critical mass, that's when developers were making the most profits. If you have 50-80M users, you release a AAA game and now if only 10% of gamers purchase it, you sell 5-8M copies. With only a 10-20M console install base, to sell 5-8M copies, you'd need to reach 40-50% install base penetration. This is basically impossible. At the same time game development and marketing costs are going up.

XB1 still has less than 30M install base. Starting a new generation in 2017 would be financial suicide for game development and 3rd party support for both Sony and MS.

Gamers don't understand how expensive launching new consoles is since many focus exclusively on the hardware side and ignore the software side.

"The $1 billion Microsoft plans to invest in exclusive games will get Xbox One users 15 exclusive titles in the first year the console is available including a few completely new franchises." http://www.dailytech.com/Microsoft+...e+Games/article31656.htm#sthash.twgCPcB4.dpuf

MS/Sony are trying to accomplish at least four unique goals. First, they went x86 to ensure backwards compatibility with future consoles. That means the console is now a "rental" experience. You purchase the console box for whatever "temporary" gaming experience you want. Once a new iteration comes out, you can sell it and take your entire gaming library and use it again on the new more powerful console.

Second, MS wants to ease very costly transitions between console cycles. The developers just make a game that runs across XB1/PS4/Slim and the updated Pro and Scorpio. Sure, it might cost more money, but the marginal cost of cross-console development pales in comparison to the financial risk and costs developing a new $50-100M game for an all-new console which may only have 5-10M install base in the first year. This explains the usual drought of games that next gen consoles face during the first 1-2 years of their life-cycles.

This means game developers won't be waiting for years until 30-40M user base accumulates on new consoles since they can just scale the game up and down [720-1080p 30-60 FPS medium setting on low-end consoles, 1080p-4K 30-60 FPS ultra settings on high-end consoles], while selling it to existing users and new console users. With higher install bar comprised of "previous gen" consoles, developers/publishers could take more risk in game development. This is why we should be more chance for new IPs towards the end of the current generation.

Third, going x86 ensures MS/Sony no longer have to spend billions of dollars making custom CPU/GPU parts. We all know how much $ MS lost on Xbox before and how disastrous the Cell was for Sony. Now, AMD or whoever partner MS/Sony choose pays for new hardware development and all the risks are transferred to AMD. It's a perfect arrangement since now Ms/Sony can instead divert the hardware funds towards software, marketing and online services. There will be some costs for customization but these are small compared to the cost of hiring a 3rd party to develop a custom CPU/GPU no one needs outside of consoles (the old console business model).

Fourth, there is an exodus of console gamers to PC due to weak hardware on consoles. By iterating more quickly, MS/Sony are trying to keep this group more happy.

Overall, this new direction suggests that at least MS is trying to move away entirely from console generations as they have been traditionally defined by boxed console hardware. Eventually XB1 won't be able to play next generation games. What should happen is XB2's (or whatever it's called) games would run on Scorpio but not XB1. Gamers may be able to reuse Xbox 1 and Scorpio controllers on Xbox 2. Then, Scorpio 2 would run Xbox 2 games and so on.

The major downside to this strategy is much, much longer console life-cycles. For example, we got XB1 in 2013 and we'll get Scorpio in 2017. That means XB2 wouldn't launch until 2019-2020. It will be 6-7 years before XB1 is retired, maybe longer. Then, 2019-2020 XB2 would last 6-7 years. The old 4-5 year console life-cycle seems to be dead. In fact, it wouldn't be surprising that early launch/less demanding XB2 games may even work on the 2013 XB1.

In conclusion, the console generations won't be as clearly defined. MS wants us to buy games for the Xbox Platform/eco-system not for Xbox1. They are just giving us the option on the level of gaming experience we are willing to pay for, much like we have Core i3-i7 and GTX1050-Titan XP on the PC. This is why they aren't allowing Scorpio exclusives for now.

Finally, for those who expected a native 4K console, you are on a technical forum and should have known better to not fall for marketing. Even a $1200 Titan XP can't run most modern AAA games maxed out at 4K 60 FPS, but some expected $400-500 box to do it?

The main point here is we don't really define PC generations, other than by new CPU/GPU architectures. We just accumulate software and the PC hardware we use is just temporary. Once new CPUs/GPUs come out, our Steam/GoG/Origin/UPlay games don't become paperweights. We are also not forced to upgrade every CPU/GPU generation as long as we are willing to play the games without maxing them out.

Why shouldn't consoles move into the same direction of iterative hardware upgrades? It's not as if once Scorpio/PS4 Pro come out that XB1/PS4 are instantly outdated. These 2013 consoles are targeted as a base console experience and the iterations are aiming for a more premium experience.

What concerns me is developers may not be able to fully utilize the capabilities of the iterative consoles until they stop using XB1/PS4 as the base. It would also mean that XB2/PS5 will be held back by Scorpio and PS4 Pro should this strategy continue. The old model of game development where we see massive jumps in graphics every new console generation would also go away. Instead, it will be replaced by more gradual but continuous improvements in graphics.

Of course for this to work, PS4 Pro and Scorpio actually have to sell well.
 
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cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Problem with the "spend $1billion on exclusive games" thing is that they have now went back on that and almost every single Xbox exclusive is available on PC(not to mention that applied to 2013-2014). So even fewer people have a reason to buy an Xbox console and they are not charging for online play on the PC either. This may have been good for the Xbox Brand but it's probably not the best idea in terms of their bottom line. I no longer own an Xbox console because of this and since I thought Halo 5 was a pretty poor game there is absolutely nothing keeping me around as an Xbox owner and an Xbox Live subscriber.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
8,388
126
i don't know if big discrete generations of console will ever be a thing again, seems to me MS and sony would like the consoles to move to more of a phone-like system. i wouldn't be shocked if they have an upgrade every 2 years and start leasing the things out. even though its more hardware targets than a 5 year console cycle would have, it's still fewer than apple and its phones.

and so long as they're sourcing from amd it's way easier on the developers during transition times. how difficult is it to write a game that performs well on both mips (PS2) and x86/nvidia (xbox), or, mips and power (transition from PS2 to PS3 and 360) with both amd and nvidia graphics (not to mention how weird cell was).

now it's amd all the way down.
 
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cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
27,052
357
126
Even so it will end up like the PS4 pro in that there are no exclusive games and you'll be waiting for patches that might end up buggy etc. I would still rather them jump to a new console instead of trying to support two with varying levels of performance.

The thing Microsoft desperately needs is Xbox console exclusives. It is absolutely going to hurt in the long run to keep releasing games to pc. It is why I do not own an Xbox any longer but do have a PS4 Pro and even Nintendo Switch
 
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purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,931
5,803
126
I can't remember the last time I turned my X1 on. It's been unhooked upstairs in my house for months maybe half a year. And I moved it up there to put s movie on for kids. Was probably just as long of not longer since I played a game on it previously. I had Xbox live since halo 2 came out but didn't renew like 2 years ago. There is nothing I the pipeline I really care about that I know of. Really doubt I'll bother with the Scorpio.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
Even so it will end up like the PS4 pro in that there are no exclusive games and you'll be waiting for patches that might end up buggy etc. I would still rather them jump to a new console instead of trying to support two with varying levels of performance.

The thing Microsoft desperately needs is Xbox console exclusives. It is absolutely going to hurt in the long run to keep releasing games to pc. It is why I do not own an Xbox any longer but do have a PS4 Pro and even Nintendo Switch
That's their biggest issue, they canceled a few games that looked great and don't have a ton of exclusives in the future. PS4 has had tons of great exclusives especially recently.

Maybe I'll upgrade, we will have to see. I almost never use my Xbone but would love to play Forza in 4k. That's basically the only reason why I even got an Xbox in the first place.
 

HOOfan 1

Platinum Member
Sep 2, 2007
2,337
15
81
I am hoping Microsoft can announce some new exclusives at the coming E3. The problem is, they don't have as many big name First Party Studios as Sony.

343 will be working on a new Halo...and it will probably be announced this E3
The Coalition will be working on Gears of War 5...not sure if it will be announced at E3
Rare is working on Sea of Thieves.
Turn 10 will be working on Forza

Maybe Mojang will announce a new Minecraft

Honestly, Microsoft probably needs to spend some money getting quality First Party developers
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,931
5,803
126
They also need some new IP's. Halo, Forza, Gears ... all that shit has become so stale it's just the same shit over and over but with more powerful graphics, and it's not like the story's are that great. I dunno but a game like Uncharted I don't feel bored playing even in part 4 (although I wasn't dying to play it at launch either, I started it a month ago and it was put on hold for Zelda) but with a game like Gears or the new Halo I just have no desire to even give them a try and play them. I think it's because Uncharted is so cinematic that it's more like playing a movie than either of those games.
 

Justinbaileyman

Golden Member
Aug 17, 2013
1,980
249
106
I would like to upgrade from xboxone to scorpio and would like to see some re-releases and maybe a few reskins of older titles but for 4k eye candy.Be nice to see stuff from Xbox gen 1 era to, like Need for speed underground series,Malice,The Matrix, and wish they would bring back project gotham racing series as well.I dont think thier ever was a kameo sequel so that would be a really cool exclusive. I dont know about the rest of you but I played the crap out of that game and I know my kids love it.Maybe odd world could do with a reboot.
 
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