New-ish to weight training

[wtfbbq]

Background:

I used to be a competitive runner before college so I have had intensive training before, but now I'm interested in improving my body by losing body fat and gaining muscle mass. I'm pretty skinny (5' 10", 136) already and am not super weak or anything, but I'm trying to get down to "defined sixpack" type body

During the normal school year (sept-mayish) I went to the gym about 1-3 times a week, probably averaging just over 2 weeks.. I have some more free time this summer and I've been starting to go 5 times a week and I have some questions for those who are experienced in this type of thing:

1. How often should I do cardio workouts, should I be doing exclusively high intensity?
-I've been running 30 min at below "tempo" pace before each workout (usually around 7:15 mile pace, I'll be a little stiff in the legs the next day sometimes, but never sore or anything). But if I'm trying to use running as a means to lose body fat should I be doing temp runs (or even short, 400/800m type runs?)
2. How "intense" should I do each body part?
- I've been doing things like 4-5 sets of 10 curls / pulldowns / back extensions (with weight), but sometimes I feel like that's not enough. I'll be pretty tired after 4 sets and have to move down in weight, but after a break I can continue... I really have no idea what kind of rest/intensity is best. Also, I don't know a whole lot of exercises for each muscle, so I just do the same 1 or 2 exercises for each muscle, although I do try to vary it a little sometimes.
3. Consecutive days on the same muscle?
-I've read a bit on the internet and have heard both pro and cons (though more on the con side). Usually I abs and bicep curls every day, and then shoulders/tricep/lats one day and chest/calves/hamstrings the other. Is this typical?
4. Lower body required while also running?
- should I be doing a lot of leg work if I'm also running? right now I just do calf raises and leg extensions sometimes because I get kind of lazy...

thanks for the help, sorry about the rambliness of the post - I'm basically completely new to weight training (heh, cross country coach wasn't a big fan of it) and I'd appreciate any advice!

 

[katank]

Read the fast loss sticky at top of this forum.

In short, try either Starting Strength 3x5 or Stronglifts 5x5 for weightlifting.

Also, make sure you are eating clean. Paleo style foods if possible. Controlling portion sizes is also a good idea. Zone is an easy way to do the accounting.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: wtfbbq
but now I'm interested in improving my body by losing body fat and gaining muscle mass.

For the most part, you cannot lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. To a large extent, these are your body's reactions to exactly opposite stimuli (namely, a caloric deficit vs a caloric surplus, respectfully), so it just doesn't make sense to try to do them simultaneously. You should instead pick one of these goals, stick with it for a while, and then focus on the other. For example, you could do a "bulk" cycle (add muscle mass) for a few months and then "cut" cycle (lose fat) for a few months.

Originally posted by: wtfbbq
I'm pretty skinny (5' 10", 136)

Pretty skinny? No offense, but you are TINY. Given these numbers, I'd strongly urge you to start by trying to add muscle mass. You honestly can't afford to lose any weight!

With the goal of bulking in mind, you need to do two things:

(1) Proper diet. See the sticky at the top of the forum for good info. You need to get yourself in a caloric surplus and eat sufficient protein. One of the most effective ways to do this is to drink a gallon of milk a day (GOMAD).

(2) Weight training. This is the best way to convince your body to turn the caloric surplus into muscle mass (instead of fat). You definitely sound like a beginner and as such, you should NOT be trying to come up with your own routine. Instead, use a routine designed by professionals. One of the best is the routine in Starting Strength. The book not only explains exactly what to do, but also has excellent instruction in how to do all the lifts. Stronglifts 5x5 is a similar routine and also a great option.

If you do GOMAD and one of the routines above, you should be able to add muscle mass very quickly. Once you reach some goal weight, if your body fat percentage is still too high, use the the sticky at the top of the forum for advice on cutting.

 

[jteef]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: wtfbbq
but now I'm interested in improving my body by losing body fat and gaining muscle mass.

For the most part, you cannot lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. To a large extent, these are your body's reactions to exactly opposite stimuli (namely, a caloric deficit vs a caloric surplus, respectfully), so it just doesn't make sense to try to do them simultaneously. You should instead pick one of these goals, stick with it for a while, and then focus on the other. For example, you could do a "bulk" cycle (add muscle mass) for a few months and then "cut" cycle (lose fat) for a few months.

how do you account for somebody that goes through basic training, for example.

 

[Pantlegz]

Originally posted by: jteef

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: wtfbbq
but now I'm interested in improving my body by losing body fat and gaining muscle mass.

For the most part, you cannot lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. To a large extent, these are your body's reactions to exactly opposite stimuli (namely, a caloric deficit vs a caloric surplus, respectfully), so it just doesn't make sense to try to do them simultaneously. You should instead pick one of these goals, stick with it for a while, and then focus on the other. For example, you could do a "bulk" cycle (add muscle mass) for a few months and then "cut" cycle (lose fat) for a few months.

how do you account for somebody that goes through basic training, for example.

he's talking mass not strength. While it's possible it's hard, and mass gain's are minimal opposed to cycling. that said, you don't want to put on too much weight and be fat and have to cut a lot.

 

[SigArms08]

Originally posted by: jteef

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: wtfbbq
but now I'm interested in improving my body by losing body fat and gaining muscle mass.

For the most part, you cannot lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. To a large extent, these are your body's reactions to exactly opposite stimuli (namely, a caloric deficit vs a caloric surplus, respectfully), so it just doesn't make sense to try to do them simultaneously. You should instead pick one of these goals, stick with it for a while, and then focus on the other. For example, you could do a "bulk" cycle (add muscle mass) for a few months and then "cut" cycle (lose fat) for a few months.

how do you account for somebody that goes through basic training, for example.

Basic training is a tad more intensive than some exercise routine performed in a gym five times a week for an hour or two each session.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: jteef

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: wtfbbq
but now I'm interested in improving my body by losing body fat and gaining muscle mass.

For the most part, you cannot lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. To a large extent, these are your body's reactions to exactly opposite stimuli (namely, a caloric deficit vs a caloric surplus, respectfully), so it just doesn't make sense to try to do them simultaneously. You should instead pick one of these goals, stick with it for a while, and then focus on the other. For example, you could do a "bulk" cycle (add muscle mass) for a few months and then "cut" cycle (lose fat) for a few months.

how do you account for somebody that goes through basic training, for example.

What are you referring to exactly?

 

[wtfbbq]

ah thanks for the replies and the links to the book - I'll check it out. and yeah, that was another question I had about whether I could cut fat while gaining mass... I had just started thinking about it and I wasn't sure how well that would work out, and was confused about the amount of food I should be eating.

what kind of routine does Starting Strength have (i.e. what kind of time commitment does it have?) For the next 4-5 weeks I can keep going 5 times a week, but once school starts full time again I can probably only go about 3 times a week - is this too little to be serious?

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: wtfbbq
what kind of routine does Starting Strength have (i.e. what kind of time commitment does it have?) For the next 4-5 weeks I can keep going 5 times a week, but once school starts full time again I can probably only go about 3 times a week - is this too little to be serious?

You can check out the Starting Strength Wiki for a lot of the info, but the program is basically as follows:

Workout A
Squat
Bench Press
Power Clean
Pull-ups

Workout B
Squat
Overhead Press
Deadlift
Dips

You workout 3 times per week, alternating workouts A and B. Each workout typically takes 45-75 minutes, depending how much you rest between sets. That's it. It's incredibly simple, but crazy effective. Combined with GOMAD, newbies on this routine can add absurd amounts of mass to their bodies - 40-60lbs in a year - and become very very strong. You don't need to go 5 times a week to see results if you know what you're doing.

 

[wtfbbq]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: wtfbbq
what kind of routine does Starting Strength have (i.e. what kind of time commitment does it have?) For the next 4-5 weeks I can keep going 5 times a week, but once school starts full time again I can probably only go about 3 times a week - is this too little to be serious?

You can check out the Starting Strength Wiki for a lot of the info, but the program is basically as follows:

Workout A
Squat
Bench Press
Power Clean
Pull-ups

Workout B
Squat
Overhead Press
Deadlift
Dips

You workout 3 times per week, alternating workouts A and B. Each workout typically takes 45-75 minutes, depending how much you rest between sets. That's it. It's incredibly simple, but crazy effective. Combined with GOMAD, newbies on this routine can add absurd amounts of mass to their bodies - 40-60lbs in a year - and become very very strong. You don't need to go 5 times a week to see results if you know what you're doing.

ahh thanks for the link, I skimmed them and they're super informative and I'll definitely be reading them in depth later. however I've got a few quick questions:

1. GOMAD - is this really everyday? even off days? do you just constantly drink milk throughout the day?
2. Will I need a training partner for these? I've never done much of the barbell stuff except squats and bench. I know the book has very detailed instructions according the review, and I'm sure there's more good info... but for a total newbie should I try to find someone who can spot me the first few times?
3. No curls or crunches (yes, I'm working out for superficial reasons haha)? So all the others are good enough, or do I just augment to what I feel is important?
4. So I'm not completely about getting heavier and having more strength - I'd like to look better too so will maintaining/increasing tone be a function of how healthy I eat (or as you hinted at before, is it just something to worry about AFTER gaining muscle mass)

thanks again for all the tips - all this is completely new stuff to me and it's kind of shocking how different these routines are than what I expected.

 

[dealmaster00]

1. GOMAD is really everyday. You really do drink milk throughout the day. Whole milk. Not 2% or skim. While it's an excellent option don't feel you are obligated to do it - I came from a similar background (5'5", 120lb skinny-ass distance runner) and 15 months later I'm up to 157lbs just by eating a whole lot more than what I used to - not once intaking whole milk (I actually have been around 157 for a few months now...it starts getting hard to gain muscle after a while). GOMAD may have been a more efficient method, though. At any rate you'll want to start eating a lot, in order to get stronger and prevent overtraining.

2. You don't need a training partner. I actually prefer working out alone - going with other people slows me down. The only exercise you may want a spot for is bench, and you can ask someone else who is working out close to you to spot you. It might seem awkward at first but it really isn't - people will be more than happy to help you. But if you can get a training partner, great, you'll have a guaranteed spotter. If there is no one to spot you then you can still bench press safely - text.

3. Yep, no curls/crunches. Pullups/Chinups will hit your biceps. All major compound lifts will hit your abs. You pretty much want to stick to the routine and not throw in any of your own exercises. BTW, crunches aren't all that useful for seeing abs - it's all a function of your bodyfat.

4. "Tone" (or really, muscle mass/body fat ratio) is mostly a function of what you eat. As hinted at before, you'd probably want to worry about getting stronger first, cutting (losing the bodyfat) will be easier and provide better results after you are strong and have more muscle mass.

 

[Lamont Burns]

I drink milk.... lots and lots of milk. Thankfully I love it. I am gaining fat, but the muskels are outweighing that.

 

[brikis98]

I think dealmaster covered all the answers, so I'll just add one thing: I agree with him that GOMAD is not a requirement - the real requirement is eating a LOT. GOMAD just happens to be a very accessible/cheap way to do this. Moreover, for people that normally struggle to gain weight (if you weigh 136lbs, you might be one of them), it's a very effective method that almost guarantees success. Of course, you should build up to it gradually: the first week, just have a glass with each meal. After a while, try upping it to two glasses with each meal. Eventually, start drinking it in between meals, such as having a few glasses as pre and post workout snacks. You should start packing on the weight and if you bust your ass in the workouts, most of it will be muscle. Once you reach some goal weight - at your height, I'd want to be at least ~160lbs - you can stop GOMAD, but continue the strength training. If you have more fat that you want, just cut back on the calories as explained in the fat loss sticky.

 

[StageLeft]

5,10 and 136lb, what, you need to bulk up like a mother, forget about trying for a six pack, you probably have no more than 20 ounces of skeletal muscle on your entire body. I'd recommend hitting the gym like a man possessed and eating a lot more, then worry about that.

 

[wtfbbq]

Okay, I'm sold - you guys really seem to know what you're talking about (gosh, the answers I got in ATOT were ... not quite up to this level).

Just a few quick last questions for now!

1. Would you guys say the book is a necessity? I can't find it in the library and it's 30 bucks on amazon (which isn't outrageous... but I'm still a poor college student), could I just use the Wikia for all the info?
2. What kind of stuff do you guys eat while on this program? Normally during my cross country years it was just a bunch of pasta / white rice / meat (and veggies), but I'm going to try to cut down on pasta and switch to brown rice... but TBH pasta made up a huge portion of my diet and I'm not sure what to fill the gap with. More meat? or just a ton of veggies/fruit?. also, I googled the Paleo diet that someone mentioned, and it said:

Eat none of the following:
· Grains- including bread, pasta, noodles
· Beans- including string beans, kidney beans, lentils, peanuts, snow-peas and peas
· Potatoes
· Dairy products
· Sugar
· Salt

Eat the following:
· Meat, chicken and fish
· Eggs
· Fruit
· Vegetables (especially root vegetables, but definitely not including potatoes or sweet potatoes)
· Nuts, eg. walnuts, brazil nuts, macadamia, almond. Do not eat peanuts (a bean) or cashews (a family of their own)
· Berries- strawberries, blueberries, raspberries etc.

Ignoring the thing about dairy, is this the general idea? lots of meat, and just an assortment of vegetables/fruit/veggies?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

1. Yes, the book really is a necessity. It is jammed packed with great info and will help you out with a comprehensive explanation for everything. It will answer all of your questions and will educate you further.

2. You don't need to necessarily stick to that stuff. That goes by a diet called the Paleo Diet if I'm not mistaken. The idea of a good diet in general is to eat everything in a sort of moderation. I eat bread, but not much of it. I eat a fair amount of beans since they have antioxidants, vitamins, minerals, carbs, and protein. Dairy is a great source of calories as well. Try to keep processed things to a minimum though really. All the items on the "eat the following" list are good. I just can't say I agree 100% with the "eat none of the following." It'll drive you crazy if you try to stick to that. Like I said, everything in moderation.

 

[conorvansmack]

That's pretty much it. If you don't want to spend the money on Starting Strength, StrongLifts is based on the same material and has good examples and less exhaustive explanations of the exercises.

 

[dealmaster00]

You don't need to follow the Paleo diet to gain muscle mass. Stick with GOMAD and other healthy foods as listed in the fat loss sticky and you should be good to go.

 

[gramboh]

Definitely recommend GOMAD and Starting Strength, you will put on mass quickly. I recommend the book+DVD if you really care about getting the form down (which is key to putting up big weights safely and thus gaining mass), but Stronglifts is pretty damn good as well and has video examples. No offense, but at 5'10 136 you do not have biceps so don't waste your time on curls, just focus on the main compound lifts. I'm your height and weigh 200lbs (with a good 10-15lbs of gut fat to lose) and would consider myself moderate in size.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: wtfbbq
1. Would you guys say the book is a necessity? I can't find it in the library and it's 30 bucks on amazon (which isn't outrageous... but I'm still a poor college student), could I just use the Wikia for all the info?

It's not a necessity, but honestly, it's well worth the money. Learning the proper technique for these barbell lifts is essential both to be able to do them safely and to be able to make solid progress on them. I have not seen any other resource that's nearly as good as this book at teaching the lifts, explaining why you should do these particular ones, why do weight training in general and so on. $30 isn't that much, even for a poor college student and if you're going to spend countless hours doing these workouts a little time & money invested up front will pay off big time in the long run.

Originally posted by: wtfbbq
2. What kind of stuff do you guys eat while on this program? Normally during my cross country years it was just a bunch of pasta / white rice / meat (and veggies), but I'm going to try to cut down on pasta and switch to brown rice... but TBH pasta made up a huge portion of my diet and I'm not sure what to fill the gap with. More meat? or just a ton of veggies/fruit?. also, I googled the Paleo diet that someone mentioned, and it said:

The paleo diet is decent concept, but not at all a necessity. I'd instead recommend doing something like I describe in my diet experiment thread: cutting out processed products as much as possible and basing your diet primarily on whole foods. Try to focus your diet on meats, veggies, fruits, nuts, seeds, whole grains and dairy products. Pasta is ok, as long as it is whole grain and not made with all sorts of incomprehensible ingredients. Same for bread - whole grain bread is fine, wonder bread is not. Keep it simple, eat in moderation, drink your milk, and you'll be fine

 

[wtfbbq]

Alright - thanks again for all the help you guys! man, my housemates are going to think I'm crazy when I starting bringing home 3 gallons of whole milk every week...

 

[HN]

Originally posted by: wtfbbq
Alright - thanks again for all the help you guys! man, my housemates are going to think I'm crazy when I starting bringing home 3 gallons of whole milk every week...

7 gallons

 

[gramboh]

OP: check out these articles on stronglifts for more information about GOMAD (e.g. what to expect, potential issues, how to deal with them, how to drink that much milk if you aren't used to it).

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

You can probably substitute in some ice cream. Apparently Breyers is a favorite on the crossfit forums because it's magic.
http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=20754