New Jeep Renegade yay/nay?

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Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,705
5,462
136
That just means the Truecar price is too high. I don't trust it anymore.

Yeah ever since the update, the prices aren't quite as good. But they're still pretty decent...most online car forums have a section "post what you paid" so you can see what deals other people got, and then compare that to your own various sources like Truecar, or for the Mustang, X-Plan. I hate how variable it all is...I vastly prefer Tesla's straightforward pricing model (just not their prices...lol).

Plenty of used cars out there too. Not sure if it's worth buying CPO or not because apparently if you're stuck with a dud, you're stuck with a dud. Criminal imo.
 

NutBucket

Lifer
Aug 30, 2000
27,055
573
126
IMHO most people aren't comfortable with negotiation so Truecar can make them feel like they're getting a good deal (which they are) but not the best deal. That's OK because then I can get an even better deal

I wish I could negotiate every "major" purchase. Hell, I negotiated the price of the TV I bought in 2010.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,705
5,462
136
IMHO most people aren't comfortable with negotiation so Truecar can make them feel like they're getting a good deal (which they are) but not the best deal. That's OK because then I can get an even better deal

I wish I could negotiate every "major" purchase. I negotiated the price of the TV I bought in 2010.

Yeah, I like Truecar as a tool because every dealer I've brought a certificate to (I literally went to 20 or so when shopping last year) immediately changed their tune when I pulled it out. Throw that in with whatever rebates, special offers, online pricing, etc. you've found & you can get the number down pretty good. For me tho, it never feels good because it never really feels like a win even if I get a good deal compared to what other people got online, because I know I'm still getting ripped off...to a degree lol.

Wow, TV negotiation isn't something I've heard of in ages! Was that at Circuit City or something??
 

NutBucket

Lifer
Aug 30, 2000
27,055
573
126
Local chain, Paul's TV.

Hell, I negotiated on a couple of dishwashers at Lowes' a couple months ago.
 

foghorn67

Lifer
Jan 3, 2006
11,883
63
91
Accident post. I'll edit this thread later and contribute.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk
 

sontakke

Senior member
Aug 8, 2001
895
11
81
I never understood the part of about being upside on loan. That has nothing to do with the vehicle and everything to do with the loan. One should never confuse the two. Financially, using extremely simple calculations, it makes zero difference on your bottomline whether you had paid the vehicle in cash or you are making payments when you are making decisions about getting rid of a vehicle. Obviously, interest payments skews the calculations but never in your favor unless the rate was negative!

Even engineers who should be smart enough to recognize this don't get it.
 

NutBucket

Lifer
Aug 30, 2000
27,055
573
126
There's some variability to it; buy a vehicle with high depreciation and don't put much down (or roll in negative equity) and you're there. Likewise, take out a long (I hear there are 8 year loans now?) and you'll likely be in that situation too.

Basically, if the finance guy tries to sell you GAP insurance you know you'll be in that situation.
 

monkeydelmagico

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2011
3,961
145
106
or roll in the negative equity into a cheaper leasing option & basically just keep paying what I am now, only on a leased car for the next 3 years. Both seem dumb to me because this is Jeep's problem & they didn't take care of it in the first place. Bah.

No, they have effectively made it your problem. Corporate entities tend to do that to average working folks. Lemons are bitter. At this point it is unlikely that the car will ever function correctly. Rather than stew about it, take the advice I gave you and ditch it. Life is too short to worry about an easily replaceable item like a car. I hate to sound like a salesman but you could, literally, be driving away in a new car today.
 

NutBucket

Lifer
Aug 30, 2000
27,055
573
126
Truth. The best thing you can do now is stick it to FCA by convincing others not to give them money.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,705
5,462
136
I never understood the part of about being upside on loan. That has nothing to do with the vehicle and everything to do with the loan. One should never confuse the two. Financially, using extremely simple calculations, it makes zero difference on your bottomline whether you had paid the vehicle in cash or you are making payments when you are making decisions about getting rid of a vehicle. Obviously, interest payments skews the calculations but never in your favor unless the rate was negative!

Even engineers who should be smart enough to recognize this don't get it.

It's simple math. Sample numbers, but for example:

1. $25k car new (first-year model of this car, no used options available at the time)
2. Basic 5-year loan @ 2% with $0 down = $450/mo payment
3. Paid on it for 10 months = $4,500 paid = $20.5k still owed on loan
4. KBB values the car at $16.5k (2015 with 10k miles on it)
5. $20.5k left - $16.5k trade-in value = $4k still owed

If I do lemon-law through the state, I will get market value, so I will have to eat $4k. If I trade it into a dealer today, I will have to eat $4k. Depreciation on new cars stinks if you have problems with it & can't get a dealer or legal solution for it. I just checked KBB for a newer 2016 Renegade in excellent condition with 1 mile on it...$16.5k, same as my used model with 10k miles & a year older, so you get whacked even if you simply drive the car off the lot. My original goal was simply to have Jeep swap it out for the same model, but a working one - denied. Then to have them give me credit to buy a different model under the FCA umbrella - denied. Third-party arbitrator - tried contacting for a month, no response. Lemon-law attorney...they gave me the scoop on what I could & couldn't do & what I would end up with, which right now isn't good. At best, I could swing the "more than 30 days in the shop" angle & get market value. My goal was to get the full loan paid off through the attorney (or even better, get the full original priced paid). So at the moment, I'm either stuck with it, or I can get rid of it & eat $4k.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,705
5,462
136
There's some variability to it; buy a vehicle with high depreciation and don't put much down (or roll in negative equity) and you're there. Likewise, take out a long (I hear there are 8 year loans now?) and you'll likely be in that situation too.

Basically, if the finance guy tries to sell you GAP insurance you know you'll be in that situation.

Yeah, I'm so used to leasing, I didn't put anything down on it. Just planned on keeping it for a good 10-15 years. Not anymore!
 

evident

Lifer
Apr 5, 2005
12,018
629
126
This thing sounds like a nightmare. I'd be willing to eat the $4k and move on with life... it's a tough one though.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,705
5,462
136
No, they have effectively made it your problem. Corporate entities tend to do that to average working folks. Lemons are bitter. At this point it is unlikely that the car will ever function correctly. Rather than stew about it, take the advice I gave you and ditch it. Life is too short to worry about an easily replaceable item like a car. I hate to sound like a salesman but you could, literally, be driving away in a new car today.

Yeah. The tough decision is the financial part. I either shell out $4k cash or roll it into another car. The best way to do that is to get a cheap lease & add the negative equity in, which would tack on probably another $100/mo, but the overall payment would still be doable because it's not financed, so I could probably end up with a cheaper lease payment overall than what I'm paying now.

Although, winter is coming up, and it's awfully nice having AWD/4WD in the snow, so I may stick it out through the cold months & pay it down until sometime next year when the trade-in difference isn't quite so steep.
 

NutBucket

Lifer
Aug 30, 2000
27,055
573
126
If it makes you feel better. It's still money out of your wallet either way. I'd just do it now and be done with it.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,705
5,462
136
If it makes you feel better. It's still money out of your wallet either way. I'd just do it now and be done with it.

I'm also not done with the legal battle yet...I'm still determined to find a way to make Jeep pay for this. Sold me a dud & didn't stand by their product. So lame.
 
Reactions: NutBucket

evident

Lifer
Apr 5, 2005
12,018
629
126
Yeah. The tough decision is the financial part. I either shell out $4k cash or roll it into another car. The best way to do that is to get a cheap lease & add the negative equity in, which would tack on probably another $100/mo, but the overall payment would still be doable because it's not financed, so I could probably end up with a cheaper lease payment overall than what I'm paying now.

Although, winter is coming up, and it's awfully nice having AWD/4WD in the snow, so I may stick it out through the cold months & pay it down until sometime next year when the trade-in difference isn't quite so steep.

you would have to factor more depreciation for waiting another model year as well, right?
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,739
452
126
It's simple math. Sample numbers, but for example:

1. $25k car new (first-year model of this car, no used options available at the time)
2. Basic 5-year loan @ 2% with $0 down = $450/mo payment
3. Paid on it for 10 months = $4,500 paid = $20.5k still owed on loan
4. KBB values the car at $16.5k (2015 with 10k miles on it)
5. $20.5k left - $16.5k trade-in value = $4k still owed

If I do lemon-law through the state, I will get market value, so I will have to eat $4k. If I trade it into a dealer today, I will have to eat $4k. Depreciation on new cars stinks if you have problems with it & can't get a dealer or legal solution for it. I just checked KBB for a newer 2016 Renegade in excellent condition with 1 mile on it...$16.5k, same as my used model with 10k miles & a year older, so you get whacked even if you simply drive the car off the lot. My original goal was simply to have Jeep swap it out for the same model, but a working one - denied. Then to have them give me credit to buy a different model under the FCA umbrella - denied. Third-party arbitrator - tried contacting for a month, no response. Lemon-law attorney...they gave me the scoop on what I could & couldn't do & what I would end up with, which right now isn't good. At best, I could swing the "more than 30 days in the shop" angle & get market value. My goal was to get the full loan paid off through the attorney (or even better, get the full original priced paid). So at the moment, I'm either stuck with it, or I can get rid of it & eat $4k.

The problem with this calculation is that if you wait until your trade-in matches what you owe, you might be paying the same $4k or potentially more... and you're in an unreliable car during that time.

For the sake of easy calculation, 10 months down the road you'll have paid another $4500 on the loan. Will you be at the magical break even point then? You've still paid over $4k to get to this point and you're not even in a car you can trust during this time. The only question is do you want to eat the $4k now or spread it out over 10 months? In the end you're going to be out the same money.
 

sontakke

Senior member
Aug 8, 2001
895
11
81
If it makes you feel better. It's still money out of your wallet either way. I'd just do it now and be done with it.
That was the point I was trying to make. He will loose (or have lost) the same amount of money even if he had paid cash for his purchase. I am not sure if he has grasped that fact.

The following items need to be looked as independent of each other

1) Purchase price
2) Financing
3) Selling
4) Buying another
5) New purchase price
6) New financing

But if you are used to only looking at monthly payment number, you get taken by the car industry.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,418
1,599
126
I'm also not done with the legal battle yet...I'm still determined to find a way to make Jeep pay for this. Sold me a dud & didn't stand by their product. So lame.

You'd probably have better luck pursuing claims of sodomy and oral copulation.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,705
5,462
136
The problem with this calculation is that if you wait until your trade-in matches what you owe, you might be paying the same $4k or potentially more... and you're in an unreliable car during that time.

For the sake of easy calculation, 10 months down the road you'll have paid another $4500 on the loan. Will you be at the magical break even point then? You've still paid over $4k to get to this point and you're not even in a car you can trust during this time. The only question is do you want to eat the $4k now or spread it out over 10 months? In the end you're going to be out the same money.

That was the point I was trying to make. He will loose (or have lost) the same amount of money even if he had paid cash for his purchase. I am not sure if he has grasped that fact.

The following items need to be looked as independent of each other

1) Purchase price
2) Financing
3) Selling
4) Buying another
5) New purchase price
6) New financing

But if you are used to only looking at monthly payment number, you get taken by the car industry.

you would have to factor more depreciation for waiting another model year as well, right?

All of that is correct. However, the bulk of the depreciation occurs when you drive it off the lot. If you run a 2016 Renegade with 1 mile on it through KBB, it's almost exactly the same price as my 2015 Renegade with 10k miles. Likewise, if I run my 2015 Renegade to 20k miles (assuming another 10k added over the next 10 months), it only depreciates by about another $500. Adding in the factor of time, the market value will always be sliding down lower...but not by nearly as much as from the initial purchase, so there will be a crossover point, or at least a closer point than choking out $4k.

sontakke, I understand what you are saying...but the bottom line is that I'm still on the hook for $4k if I dump the car immediately. So either I shell out now, or I continue my payments for say, another year (which will be another ~$4,500 in payments), and eventually catch up to market value (or get near enough that it won't be such a hefty fee to swap it out), so then I can transition into another vehicle for another monthly payment...without having to eat thousands of dollars. So what it boils down to is: I can eat $4k now, or just deal with the glitches for another year. I'll still be paying that $4k, but it will be spread out over time, and won't overlap with a second payment if I roll it into another payment & I won't have to shell it out up front, so financially, that's the best decision because it's the least hit either up-front or rolled into another payment over time. But then I have to deal with a lemon car for another year.

All of those are crappy options.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,705
5,462
136
Was forced to take the car back into the shop today because all of the external lights went haywire. No brake lights, no tail lights, etc. Could have gotten a ticket for that!

Regarding social media & other pressures, we have a TV station (NBC Connecticut Responds) here in CT that has a segment called "Troubleshooters" where they dig into issues like this. They had a case a few months ago that was really similar to mine:

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Woman-Said-She-Was-Sold-Unsafe-Car-379072651.html

She settled earlier this month:

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/Woman-Wins-Lemon-Law-Case-and-Gets-Refund-393589241.html

Apparently her dealer was actually really helpful in the process & gave her a loaner car throughout the process so she wasn't stuck driving her defective vehicle. She ended up winning the case & while they didn't pay her the full amount, they did pay off the remainder of the loan:

After she opened a Lemon Law case with the Department of Consumer Protection, Chrysler made Salazar an offer, but she declined, took them to court and won her case.

Chrysler is paying off the remainder of her car loan, which is a little over $29,000.

The court estimated she got about $17,000 of use out of the car before it was considered a lemon, which she already paid.

That would be a...less bad option than eating four grand. Not as good as getting the full original amount back, however.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,705
5,462
136
This thing sounds like a nightmare. I'd be willing to eat the $4k and move on with life... it's a tough one though.

At this point, I am considering it. There's no excuse for stuff like my taillights & blinkers going haywire on a car with only 10k miles on it. I'll see if I can get any traction on some kind of buyback this week (I doubt it); maybe a news station giving FCA pressure would help, but the lady in the link above had to go through lemon-law anyway & ended up getting kind of a worse deal...she bought a 200S for $39k, put $5k into it, and got the first buyback offer for $34k, which basically paid off her loan:

In an email sent to Salazar, Chrysler offered to buy back the car for just under $34,000, which means Salazar won’t be refunded the $5,000 she already put into the car.
She rejected the offer and has opened a Lemon law case with the Department of Consumer Protection.

According to the formula DCP uses in lemon law cases, Salazar should only have to pay $286 towards the vehicle for the time it was working, not $5,000 but DCP said that is pending the conclusion of her case.

She rejected that because she wanted the full amount, which is understandable, but in the second article, she actually ended up being awarded less money:

Chrysler is paying off the remainder of her car loan, which is a little over $29,000.

The court estimated she got about $17,000 of use out of the car before it was considered a lemon, which she already paid.

“Glad we could help her out during this issue. We wish Chrysler would have acted in a more expedient manner but we’re glad it finally came to a resolution,” Jonathan Gengras said about the decision.

NBC Connecticut reached out to Chrysler for comment.

"FCA US LLC had negotiated a buyback with Ms. Salazar but she objected to our mileage offset and thought she could pay less by going through with the arbitration. However, the arbitrator in fact came back with a decision requiring Ms. Salazar to pay more of an offset than FCA originally offered," the statement says

...

Salazar did received about $3,100 back for other fees associated with the purchase of the car.

So from May to September, she continued to pay down the car monthly, and Chrysler ended up paying $29k - she could have just gotten out of the car with zero immediate financial loss on the first offer & started over with a new vehicle (although she did get $3.1k for other fees, but still). To me, FCA is just another large, uncaring corporation, so I don't really care if they get "punished" or not by winning in court. What I care about is (1) getting out of my crappy car, and (2) not having to pay to do so. Right now, getting out means shelling out $4,000. That's insane. Still hoping I can get a buyback offer, but if worst comes to worst, I can roll in the negative equity for ~$70/mo extra on whatever replacement car I go with (as opposed to forking out four grand immediately).

The saga continues!
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,705
5,462
136
Talked to FCA I2R again today. They basically said that if it's an intermittent issue, if they can't recreate it in the shop, they can't make progress towards an in-house resolution. So basically, they can drag out the next 2 years of warranty work as long as they want if they can't recreate it, despite photo & video evidence that I provide. If they can recreate it & patch it with a fix, great. If they can recreate it & can't fix it, that's when progress gets made towards a replacement or a refund. My issues are random & intermittent. Sometimes I'll get a full week of no issues, sometimes it's 3 times a day, there's no rhyme or reason. The dealer service center rarely keeps it for more than a few days at a time, so...yeah. I did get a new case number, so I'm going to try arbitration again & see if they can figure out a resolution. Have not gotten any contact back on the previous case at all. Le sigh.

Currently driving a Cherokee loaner. I believe it's a V6 model, lots peppier than the 4-cylinder I had before. From what I can tell, it has the same updated transmission flash that my Renegade has, because the 9-speed issues that I was having before on both the Renegade & the Cherokee rental aren't there. Either that, or the bigger engine compensates for the crummy transmission performance better than the 4-cylinder does. I feel like I've spent more time in rentals than in the actual car I pay for lol.
 
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