New Mafia II PhysX ON/OFF video.

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Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Keys, I think the issue with physics in games is that it's not very substantial.

Nope, that's not it. The problem is that Nvidia has PhysX, and uses it's GPU's to run it in games such as Mafia II. The problem is that ATI based GPU's cannot run it, nor can an Nvidia card with ATI GPU present as primary. The problems is, the reason people are saying PhysX isn't like anything they haven't seen before that could run successfully on a CPU is because ATI cards cant run it on their GPU's so the only other alternative for those using them, is the CPU. Problem is, it's a guaranteed thing that if ATI "had" jumped on and supported PhysX and can run PhysX content on their GPU's, nobody would give a whit about PhysX running on CPU's, because ATI can do it to. It's the root of all these discussions across the net.

You can take the approach in Arkham and Mafia NV has taken with physics which is withhold features that would easily be able to be done convincingly on a CPU without a physics engine (debris and weapon on environment scarring decals). This is stuff that should be added to games, and it would be done easily with no physics engine whatsoever.


The real advantage I can think off the top of my head for real immersion that physics adds is fluid dynamics. Cloth and water additions would be fantastic. A brook breaking up convincingly randomly around rocks, cloth that actually is affected in the wind (not just by waving, but imagine flags manipulated at correct angles by wind speed and direction), that sort of thing, but that really isn't hyped for some reason, probably because it's not as sexy. Exploding buildings are fine and all, but every time I see something like that, I always remember I've seen it done convincingly before without the need for so much additional cost and computing power without a physics engine.

The real immersion you're speaking of would need to come from devs.

The other addition would be things like true ballistics. It would be nice for devs/nvidia/amd/intel to help develop actual game play changes so that physics beings something substantial to the table. I want to see a sniper rifle fire bullets that are truly affected not just by elevation like today's games, but also windage, rotation, yaw, etc. On top of that, why not give characters actual skeletons so terminal ballistics can be simulated with entry and exit wounds? Maybe one day I'll actually have a .338 Laupa exit a enemy in an angle that wasn't the entrance angle, adding some skill to sniping multiple enemies in a line.

Perhaps that will come to pass.

As of now, PhysX s just doing exactly what we've been able to do for years, except limiting it to just a subset of the population. It really adds nothing that shouldn't already be there, and costs too much in performance and price to boot (again with rare exceptions to the rule like cloth effects in Sacred 2 and Mirror's Edge, but even the effects in those games really aren't big game changers.) What we are show in not so much ineffective uses of PhysX, but a technology languishing from lack of imagination. Where's the true newtonian physics based space movement enhanced by PhysX, melee combat like shields being knocked away by swords convincingly randomly or maybe give things like the plasmid powees in Bioshock realistic physical properties? What I just saw in that video has a been there, done that without the expensive equipment feel to it and can you really blame people for technology if it isn't being used to give people something actually new, but instead is an answer searching for a nonexistant problem right now?

It's a feature that add more to the game. Like it or not. Impressed or not. The extra content is there.

Would it really be asking too much for PhysX to stop doing the hey look how sexy, yet insubstantial these additions are and actually doing a killer app that changes the gameplay experience instead?

Might as well be asking for AA, Ambient Occlusion, Tesselation to stop doing what they do. But these are all things ATI GPU's can do, so no problems.

Also offtopic, but a .45 ACP round (fired from the Thompson Submachine Gun) would not tear up brick walls that badly (2nd example), the .45 is a very low power/low velocity round with a very soft jacket and core. The vast majority of .45 loads fired from your standard 5" barrel full size pistol will be subsonic speed and do damage to soft targets, not from high energy but from low energy impacting over a large surface area, making it terrible to damage hard objects like body armor or brick walls, but good from a expansion and penetration POV on soft bodies. The non physX example is actually accurate on how a .45 round would actually look against a wall.
Looked like a 40 cal sitting in that upper window spraying the cars and the streets anyway.
 

Madcatatlas

Golden Member
Feb 22, 2010
1,155
0
0
I will TEAR down this street using ONLY my 9mm!... and then ill walk across the sky looking for something to belive in.

Hey keep it alive! the more that see the topic and the silliness of physx in this title, the better.

As a strategy/rpg and some adventure games fan, i like to say that gameplay is king. Eyecandy is great, but you are not selling me Mafia2 by touting its physx effects, however unrealistic them may be.
 
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Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
I will TEAR down this street using ONLY my 9mm!... and then ill walk across the sky looking for something to belive in.

Hey keep it alive! the more that see the topic and the silliness of physx in this title, the better.

As a strategy/rpg and some adventure games fan, i like to say that gameplay is king. Eyecandy is great, but you are not selling me Mafia2 by touting its physx effects, however unrealistic them may be.

This is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks Madcat.
 

Madcatatlas

Golden Member
Feb 22, 2010
1,155
0
0
"however unrealistic it may be"

sorry about that.

Yes carry on. And no, i have no clue what your talking about Keys.
 

tviceman

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2008
6,734
514
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Kenmitch

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,505
2,249
136
This kinda irks me a little bit. I hope that running the cloth on CPU only without a dedicated physx card was an unintended mistake, and that there will be a fix in the future that gives users the choice of running all physx effects on 1 GPU.

Being how nvidia added the physX eye candy to the game I doubt it was an oversight by them....Even nvidia knows physX works it's best when you have a dedicated card for it. Isn't that the way Ageia designed it dedicated card for use by ALL you pay to play
 

MrK6

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2004
4,458
4
81
Being how nvidia added the physX eye candy to the game I doubt it was an oversight by them....Even nvidia knows physX works it's best when you have a dedicated card for it. Isn't that the way Ageia designed it dedicated card for use by ALL you pay to play
It says quite a bit when a company doesn't even have faith in its own products.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
It says quite a bit when a company doesn't even have faith in its own products.

It also says quite a bit when you come up with an interpretation like that for this situation. I wonder if the cloth were run on the primary (no dedicated PhysX GPU) along with all the particle PhysX, if it would be faster or slower than it running on the CPU.
This tells me that when I was running the single GTX480 alone, the CPU was running the cloth PhysX. When I added the 8800GTS 512 as a dedicated PhysX GPU, then ALL PhysX content was run on the 8800GTS 512 relieving the CPU of that task. Interesting. I did get a 38% increase in framerates after adding the 8800.
 

Kenmitch

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,505
2,249
136
It also says quite a bit when you come up with an interpretation like that for this situation. I wonder if the cloth were run on the primary (no dedicated PhysX GPU) along with all the particle PhysX, if it would be faster or slower than it running on the CPU.
This tells me that when I was running the single GTX480 alone, the CPU was running the cloth PhysX. When I added the 8800GTS 512 as a dedicated PhysX GPU, then ALL PhysX content was run on the 8800GTS 512 relieving the CPU of that task. Interesting. I did get a 38% increase in framerates after adding the 8800.

Don't understand this part....As in your sig you say SLI'd GTX 480's

Did one of them burn up or something?

PhysX by design was to be run on a dedicated card....At least that's the way Ageia saw it....Even under nvidia's control doesn't physX run better on a dedicated card? As in takes off the burden which will increase framerates
 
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MrK6

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2004
4,458
4
81
It also says quite a bit when you come up with an interpretation like that for this situation. I wonder if the cloth were run on the primary (no dedicated PhysX GPU) along with all the particle PhysX, if it would be faster or slower than it running on the CPU.
This tells me that when I was running the single GTX480 alone, the CPU was running the cloth PhysX. When I added the 8800GTS 512 as a dedicated PhysX GPU, then ALL PhysX content was run on the 8800GTS 512 relieving the CPU of that task. Interesting. I did get a 38% increase in framerates after adding the 8800.
Well, evidently NVIDIA didn't think even their flagship GTX 480 was fast enough to run all the PhysX code and render at the same time, even though it's only a DX9 console port. Kind of defeats the purpose really, especially if the extra work is given to the CPU, which they've done a very poor job optimizing. It's just overall slipshod execution.
Don't understand this part....As in your sig you say SLI'd GTX 480's

Did one of them burn up or something?

PhysX by design was to be run on a dedicated card....At least that's the way Ageia saw it....Even under nvidia's control doesn't physX run better on a dedicated card? As in takes off the burden which will increase framerates
It's too bad NVIDIA screwed the pooch on this technology, it could have done a lot more for gaming.
 

Kenmitch

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,505
2,249
136
Yeah, that's probably why they ditched the ATI name.

Your moniker fit's your personality

Can't we just all get along....You think nvidia is the almighty!

Prove it with wisdom....enlighten our poor lost soles!

Educate us not scorn us

Think about it....I ask questions about physX and you Green guys pretty much either ignore them or riddle your responses! WTF?
 

MagickMan

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2008
7,537
3
76
Wow, just wow. So enthusiasts are to blame for the lack of interesting things being done with PhysX? Seriously? Obviously the game developers don't give a hoot about enthusiasts, they just don't want sell as many units as possible. We *could* have a lot more right now if PhysX wasn't so closed off, going as far as artificially disabling it when an ati card is present in the system. The enthusiasts aren't to blame here, Nvidia is.

Well, if NVidia weren't such a bad company, we'd have a decent physics standard right now that everyone could benefit from. AMD isn't angelic, but compared to NVidia they're pretty close.

I can't believe that I used to buy and sell their products. Well, to hell with them. I'll not make that mistake again, and neither will any of my clients.

Removed inappropriate language that contributed nothing to the post. -Admin DrPizza
 
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Vesku

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2005
3,743
28
86
Might want to tone down the language there MagickMan, mods have been trying to clean up the Video forum cussing. Although I totally agree with the sentiment on standardization.
 

Kenmitch

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,505
2,249
136
We *could* have a lot more right now if PhysX wasn't so closed off, going as far as artificially disabling it when an ati card is present in the system.

Nvidia did this as an act of self-preservation....Come on don't you think they did some in house testing of the ATI products. Most likely they found out that it works too good for their liking. Being a company based on arogance the e-peen was getting pretty tiny! What better way than to just kill the support for physX if an ATI card is detected.

You know it can't be about the money as it would be in the companies best financial interest to allow those with an ATI card as primary the option of purchasing a nvidia card as a dedicated physX card....You pay to play isn't that what the Green team taunts!

It's all about the e-peen, the ego, the spoiled little rich kid attitude!

Competition is good for the industry and fuels advancement....But when one starts pulling the plug on those whom have purchased their products it's time to ask why. Not time to defend them. Those who defend nvidia somehow think that when you purchase a video card you don't purchase the right to use the card as it was intended to be used. That somehow once you decide to use the nvidia card as a dedicated physX card and insert a ATI card as primary that you have just givin up your right to use the nvidia card. I don't see the logic behind this!

Until the AMD/ATI lockout is lifted physX will never go anywhere!...Too bad nvidia doesn't like playing second fiddle
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Don't understand this part....As in your sig you say SLI'd GTX 480's

Did one of them burn up or something?

PhysX by design was to be run on a dedicated card....At least that's the way Ageia saw it....Even under nvidia's control doesn't physX run better on a dedicated card? As in takes off the burden which will increase framerates

I shut down my computer, opened the case, removed the SLI bridge and took out one of the GTX480s to test some games with a single GTX480 with and without a 8800GTS 512 for PhysX. No, one of them didn't burn up or something.
PhysX runs better with a dedicated card, but it depends on the dedicated cards level. A 8600GT doesn't do much and could actually impair framerates.
I've found that 96sp dedicated GPU for PhysX is where there are noticeable gains.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Nvidia did this as an act of self-preservation....Come on don't you think they did some in house testing of the ATI products. Most likely they found out that it works too good for their liking. Being a company based on arogance the e-peen was getting pretty tiny! What better way than to just kill the support for physX if an ATI card is detected.

You know it can't be about the money as it would be in the companies best financial interest to allow those with an ATI card as primary the option of purchasing a nvidia card as a dedicated physX card....You pay to play isn't that what the Green team taunts!

It's all about the e-peen, the ego, the spoiled little rich kid attitude!

Competition is good for the industry and fuels advancement....But when one starts pulling the plug on those whom have purchased their products it's time to ask why. Not time to defend them. Those who defend nvidia somehow think that when you purchase a video card you don't purchase the right to use the card as it was intended to be used. That somehow once you decide to use the nvidia card as a dedicated physX card and insert a ATI card as primary that you have just givin up your right to use the nvidia card. I don't see the logic behind this!

Until the AMD/ATI lockout is lifted physX will never go anywhere!...Too bad nvidia doesn't like playing second fiddle

The adverse it true as well. If you supported PhysX and purchased NV GPU's, then the adoption of PhysX would be a lot quicker.
 

Madcatatlas

Golden Member
Feb 22, 2010
1,155
0
0
Seen like that, i guess we could say: too bad ATI/AMD doesnt just ..give up...

lol



gg, thx and bye (<--- lol)
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,634
180
106
The adverse it true as well. If you supported PhysX and purchased NV GPU's, then the adoption of PhysX would be a lot quicker.

But why should he?

It isn't his job to support physX. It is NVIDIA job to make physX compelling so people buy cards to run physX.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
But why should he?

It isn't his job to support physX. It is NVIDIA job to make physX compelling so people buy cards to run physX.

What do you think would be more productive then?
Complaining about how terrible current PhysX content is, or supporting it to further it's advancement?
 

Pantalaimon

Senior member
Feb 6, 2006
341
40
91
The adverse it true as well. If you supported PhysX and purchased NV GPU's, then the adoption of PhysX would be a lot quicker.

Nothing in the current crop of games has made PhysX compelling enough that I would lock myself to NVIDIA and its sleazy marketing tactics. It's still the garnish on the steak that I don't miss when it's not there.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Nothing in the current crop of games has made PhysX compelling enough that I would lock myself to NVIDIA and its sleazy marketing tactics. It's still the garnish on the steak that I don't miss when it's not there.

My point. First of all, you have to be "compelled" to support PhysX. In order to do that, you need to be able to see some potential in PhysX. But you cannot get past the company that provides PhysX to support it. I know how you feel, because frankly, I can't get past the company that doesn't show anything at all.
 
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