NEW OCZ Vector

[Puddle Jumper]

The performance looks good but I'm not going to look at one until it has been out long enough to have some solid info on the reliability of this and the Samsung 840 to for that matter. Besides I bought one of the Samsung 830's on sale last week so that should keep me satisfied until we know which new generation drives are dependable.

 

[jwilliams4200]

No, Groberts101 is not employed. He does get a drive, but he receives no monetary compensation. He is a beta tester, if that counts as employed in your opinion, so be it.

You mean he gets to keep beta SSDs that OCZ sends him? If so, I would not call that "employed" necessarily, but it is definitely non-monetary compensation from OCZ.

 

[groberts101]

You mean he gets to keep beta SSDs that OCZ sends him? If so, I would not call that "employed" necessarily, but it is definitely non-monetary compensation from OCZ.

LOL.. I earn my keep pretty well there buddy so twist it around all you want to get a few more points for the anti-OCZ contingency.

And I'm guessing that you and the other flamers probably think I'm only worth pennies on the dollar.. but IMHO there are times when OCZ should be paying me extra for the sheer amount of time and testing that I do on their products sometimes. I make damned good money at my day jobs and a $270 SSD would definately be considered a pay cut if I was to tally it all up.

Fact of the matter is that I'm certianly not the brown nosing sheep that some may think and I typically buck the system while going my own way most of the time. Furthermore, and just in case you hadn't noticed already, you'll rarely ever meet someone as "from the hip" and "in your face" as I am either. Tact and diplomacy have never been my strongpoints and I tend to push the limits however and whenever I can get away with it.. and even sometimes when I can't just to get my point across.

From my perspective.. and ego's aside.. no really!.. any company that actually wants a brutally honest and no-holds barred opinion of what a power user thinks about their product would be lucky to have me. I know how to test with full repeatability and I call it like I see it.

So feel free to put that in you pipe and smoke it on your way out the door.

PS. Might want to keep in mind that less is more, sometimes. Because if you keep forcing these "opinionated facts" down peoples throats as you do so well?.. eventually it'll come back up in your face.

And I think I see a peice of corn on your lip there. No.. you missed it.. it's on the other side.

 

[Brahmzy]

...you and the other flamers...

LOL.

 

[josephjpeters]

LOL.

I'm sure JWill will bring up something from 2002 that is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Back to Vector, anyone know anything about this NAND flash management stuff?

I know MWI is something Anandtech looks at when it comes to endurance but isn't that just an indication of the media and not the true endurance of the drive if there's some Adaptive DSP (aDSP) trickery going on?

For instance, 20nm IMFT MLC is rated for 3k P/E cycles so the MWI will just tell you when P/E cycles hit 3k. If these aDSP technologies extend the useful life of NAND by a factor of say 10 (a number I've seen thrown around), then it's kind of useless to look at MWI, right?

Point is, drives will last well beyond the rated cycles of the media.

 

[groberts101]

I'm sure JWill will bring up something from 2002 that is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Back to Vector, anyone know anything about this NAND flash management stuff?

I know MWI is something Anandtech looks at when it comes to endurance but isn't that just an indication of the media and not the true endurance of the drive if there's some Adaptive DSP (aDSP) trickery going on?

For instance, 20nm IMFT MLC is rated for 3k P/E cycles so the MWI will just tell you when P/E cycles hit 3k. If these aDSP technologies extend the useful life of NAND by a factor of say 10 (a number I've seen thrown around), then it's kind of useless to look at MWI, right?

Point is, drives will last well beyond the rated cycles of the media.

lol.. no.. he'll quote return rates in France again.

As for the rest of that stuff?.. even if I could answer those questions.. and I honestly can't because it hurts my brain.. or the mfgr shuts me down when I try.. I really think you summed it up quite well with that last remark. :thumbsup:

My opinion is that mfgr's are simply thinking ahead at this point and maybe when we go through a couple more die shrinks it'll become more relevant.

But as of now it's still pretty tough to kill these things or force read only states through flash expenditure. I can't even kill mine..regardless of what some may say about OCZ's quality, and I'll be putting them in Playstations, JBOD arrays, or simply giving them away to friends and family long before they're worn out.

 

[Hellhammer]

Back to Vector, anyone know anything about this NAND flash management stuff?

I know MWI is something Anandtech looks at when it comes to endurance but isn't that just an indication of the media and not the true endurance of the drive if there's some Adaptive DSP (aDSP) trickery going on?

For instance, 20nm IMFT MLC is rated for 3k P/E cycles so the MWI will just tell you when P/E cycles hit 3k. If these aDSP technologies extend the useful life of NAND by a factor of say 10 (a number I've seen thrown around), then it's kind of useless to look at MWI, right?

Point is, drives will last well beyond the rated cycles of the media.

MWI is the only thing we can look at without spending weeks, possibly months testing the drive. I know it doesn't indicate the real endurance and I've said that before as well, but it tells us the minimum spec. Manufacturers are also very quiet about aDSP and won't give us any specific numbers or explanations, usually it's all along the lines of "our endurance is better than others", which really doesn't give us anything.

 

[josephjpeters]

lol.. no.. he'll quote return rates in France again.

As for the rest of that stuff?.. even if I could answer those questions.. and I honestly can't because it hurts my brain.. or the mfgr shuts me down when I try.. I really think you summed it up quite well with that last remark. :thumbsup:

My opinion is that mfgr's are simply thinking ahead at this point and maybe when we go through a couple more die shrinks it'll become more relevant.

But as of now it's still pretty tough to kill these things or force read only states through flash expenditure. I can't even kill mine..regardless of what some may say about OCZ's quality, and I'll be putting them in Playstations, JBOD arrays, or simply giving them away to friends and family long before they're worn out.

I know this technology is the secret sauce so it's unlikely we'll ever really know what goes on but I really do think the manufacturers who CAN do this stuff should talk about it more.

The list those who can play this game is pretty short.

Manufacturers talk about it the enterprise space (see SMART's Guardian and STEC's CellCare). Consumers are always focused on media endurance when in reality they should care about the drives endurance.

This is why I'm really excited about TLC. I think Samsung's raw TLC gets ~1k P/E cycles at 19nm and with some sort of aDSP the drive could very well last 10k cycles. We're talking 512GB SSD's that are approaching $200 (if you assume the increased bit density from MLC to TLC AND the die shrink).

 

[josephjpeters]

MWI is the only thing we can look at without spending weeks, possibly months testing the drive. I know it doesn't indicate the real endurance and I've said that before as well, but it tells us the minimum spec. Manufacturers are also very quiet about aDSP and won't give us any specific numbers or explanations, usually it's all along the lines of "our endurance is better than others", which really doesn't give us anything.

I know why you guys do it. I just think consumers don't really know that this tech even exists. Lots of focus on media wear out and not enough on actual drive endurance.

People have endurance anxiety. Any mention of 20nm MLC or TLC gets people all up in arms.

 

[Brahmzy]

The only experience I've had with anything close to SSD wear is in my first-gen Vertex/Vertex Turbos. Never had a failure of any sort, but I did chew through a lot of NAND after 4 years of beating on 'em. I have one down to 59% life.
I think after 1.5yrs of beating up my Vertex 3's I was still at 99% on each of 'em. That's with many becnhmarks, tons of copies / deletes / .iso etc. I don't really consider wear an issue in most of my workloads. Technology will obsolete the hardware LONG before wear is a concern for me.
Throw these in the Enterprise? Who knows. I've got 4TB worth of SLC solid state in one of my EMC SANs and after 2+ years I've never had a failure. Those things are getting hammered all day, every day. EMC now offers MLC drives in their VNXs, so they're pretty confident in the wear of them. With the kind of workload SANs have, it's hard to imagine any time for any type of wear leveling routines to run.

 

[Hellhammer]

I know this technology is the secret sauce so it's unlikely we'll ever really know what goes on but I really do think the manufacturers who CAN do this stuff should talk about it more.

The list those who can play this game is pretty short.

Manufacturers talk about it the enterprise space (see SMART's Guardian and STEC's CellCare). Consumers are always focused on media endurance when in reality they should care about the drives endurance.

SMART and STEC don't really talk about anything else to be honest. I think the key here is that aDSP isn't that relevant to consumer-grade drives (yet) so there is no need to talk about it - the MLC or even TLC NAND we have today is enough for most consumers' needs. In the enterprise world, however, NAND endurance has always been an issue so it makes sense to talk about aDSP there. Enterprise OEMs don't care about reviews or media that much because their clients often have their own IT team who does the evaluation, hence they don't have the need to tell us or other media about aDSP. Or at least that's one angle.

This is why I'm really excited about TLC. I think Samsung's raw TLC gets ~1k P/E cycles at 19nm and with some sort of aDSP the drive could very well last 10k cycles. We're talking 512GB SSD's that are approaching $200 (if you assume the increased bit density from MLC to TLC AND the die shrink).

Don't want to nitpick but Samsung's current gen NAND is 21nm, not 19nm.

I know why you guys do it. I just think consumers don't really know that this tech even exists. Lots of focus on media wear out and not enough on actual drive endurance.

People have endurance anxiety. Any mention of 20nm MLC or TLC gets people all up in arms.

So true. We have tried to break the NAND lifespan myth but people will still scream when they hear about smaller lithography NAND or more bits per cell. Even if I show them the lifespan they will get, it's still a mess. I really wonder who wants to keep their SSD for more than 3-5 years anyway, the SSDs we had 3 years ago were awful compared to what we have today and cost a ton.

The only experience I've had with anything close to SSD wear is in my first-gen Vertex/Vertex Turbos. Never had a failure of any sort, but I did chew through a lot of NAND after 4 years of beating on 'em. I have one down to 59% life.

I got my Samsung SSD 840 down to 55% in less than a week

 

[Brahmzy]

I got my Samsung SSD 840 down to 55% in less than a week

Good grief man!

 

[capeconsultant]

My Vector comes tomorrow. And I just bought 350 more shares, for a total of 435 of OCZ. SO in a way, I am betting the farm. Becasue I believe that if a company has a forward thinking state of the art SSD on the market, that it will succeed. The market for a good SSD is very strong.

I am likely going to clone my win 8 install from my Intel 520 to the new drive. I know a fresh install would be better, but that takes too much time right now

 

[Brahmzy]

A true clone is no worse than a fresh install in this case. No worries. If it bothers you, clean up Device Manager's old hidden drive after the clone.

 

[BrightCandle]

People worry about flash endurance way too much. I have abused an 80GB X25M at work daily since they came out and its still got 87% left. Its ridiculous how long this ancient drive will last, it is obsolete already and its barely started.

But I have also owned 2 Vertex 2 Pro's and they both died one in warrant and one outside the warranty. Neither was due to media burnout but because other parts of the drive failed (presumably the controller chip or capacitors). The replacement agility 3 that I got for the one in warranty also failed quickly within 4 months of getting it. These 3 drives were not hammered like the Intel is day in day out, they sit on machines at home mostly reading games.

What I want to see is the manufacturers talking about their MTBF and reporting back on actual failure rates of their disks regularly, and this being incorporated into reviews/followup reviews. It would be nice to see a roundup of the genuinely reliable drives on a market level so that anecdote from vocal forum members is not the only evidence available.

I hope the Vector is a reliable dependable product, because ultimately that is what we all want in our drives and OCZ need it to succeed.

 

[jwilliams4200]

LOL.. I earn my keep pretty well there buddy so twist it around all you want to get a few more points for the anti-OCZ contingency.

No need to become so defensive. I was just asking for clarification.

I have no doubt you earn your non-monetary compensation from OCZ. For people who do not know that OCZ compensates you, I guess your posts recommending OCZ products can be persuasive.

 

[Coup27]

I really feel sorry for jwilliams4200. I must be the only person in this thread who thinks he gets completely singled out for no reason.

You mean he gets to keep beta SSDs that OCZ sends him? If so, I would not call that "employed" necessarily, but it is definitely non-monetary compensation from OCZ.

This post is not twisted around or flame bait. It is a factual statement that as a beta tester groberts101 gets to keep his drives in return for the testing he does. That is all. I also think it is important that is out in the open, then people can make their own mind up on whether they feel the advice from groberts101 is biased towards OCZ or not.

All of jwilliams4200's post may lack emotion, but they are generally factual statements or points which people jump on for some reason.

 

[reynoldsjrmy]

I have no doubt you earn your non-monetary compensation from OCZ. For people who do not know that OCZ compensates you, I guess your posts recommending OCZ products can be persuasive.

jw,

First off I would like to make it clear I am also a beta tester for OCZ.

I have had a very successful and senior career in IT and I can assure that I would not forsake my value system or objectivity for the sake of a 'free' drive now and then. I do though reserve my right to be pro OCZ.

I can assure you that OCZ does not look for namby-pamby 'softies' to become beta testers - we are respected and actively encouraged to find problems and to make constructive criticism. We are also encouraged to post facts (and give personal impressions) both when we post within our own forums and elsewhere.

Some observations, having seen a number of your posts:

- When someone responds to you they are not necessarily being 'defensive'.

- I can't help but question why you appear to be so motivated to hit out at OCZ - I imagine, like me, many in this community can't help but wonder if you have an ulterior motive.

-I have formed the impression that you are a bright chap - why not drop the OCZ bone now and then.

By the way, you should visit the OCZ forums, you will soon find that problems/issues are not covered up or glossed over - the forum is open (and not censored). There is a sincere commitment to supporting customers and the guys that run the forum have an excellent value system. If they did not, I would not spend time there.

Regds, JR

 

[jwilliams4200]

- When someone responds to you they are not necessarily being 'defensive'.

- I can't help but question why you appear to be so motivated to hit out at OCZ - I imagine, like me, many in this community can't help but wonder if you have an ulterior motive.

-I have formed the impression that you are a bright chap - why not drop the OCZ bone now and then.

By the way, you should visit the OCZ forums, you will soon find that problems/issues are not covered up or glossed over - the forum is open (and not censored). There is a sincere commitment to supporting customers and the guys that run the forum have an excellent value system. If they did not, I would not spend time there.

If you can read groberts101 post and not see clear evidence of someone preemptively building a defense for things that he imagines I may post in the future, then I suspect it will be difficult for you and I to communicate effectively with each other.

If you cannot understand my statements about OCZ and OCZ products after the multiple explanations I have already made in this thread and in this forum, then I seriously doubt we will have any productive communication in the future.

If you think that I would change my conclusions about OCZ with no solid evidence, just to "drop the OCZ bone" because you don't like people criticizing OCZ, then any impressions you have formed about me are highly questionable.

If you assume that I have not read and posted in the OCZ forums for years now, then you are making bad assumptions.

 

[reynoldsjrmy]

If you can read groberts101 post and not see clear evidence of someone preemptively building a defense for things that he imagines I may post in the future, then I suspect it will be difficult for you and I to communicate effectively with each other.
.

I did not single out berts' post

If you cannot understand my statements about OCZ and OCZ products after the multiple explanations I have already made in this thread and in this forum, then I seriously doubt we will have any productive communication in the future.
.

I did not say I do not understand them.

If you think that I would change my conclusions about OCZ with no solid evidence, just to "drop the OCZ bone" because you don't like people criticizing OCZ, then any impressions you have formed about me are highly questionable.
.

I did not ask you to - I questioned your motivation and why you choose to launch them so frequently.

If you assume that I have not read and posted in the OCZ forums for years now, then you are making bad assumptions. In particular, Tony has single-handedly lowered my opinion of OCZ support immensely.

Sorry - a bad assumption on my part. You are of course entitled to your opinion. Tony and his value system is well known around the internet - I don't think he needs me to make a defensive statement.

Regds, JR

 

[groberts101]

I really feel sorry for jwilliams4200. I must be the only person in this thread who thinks he gets completely singled out for no reason.

This post is not twisted around or flame bait. It is a factual statement that as a beta tester groberts101 gets to keep his drives in return for the testing he does. That is all. I also think it is important that is out in the open, then people can make their own mind up on whether they feel the advice from groberts101 is biased towards OCZ or not.

All of jwilliams4200's post may lack emotion, but they are generally factual statements or points which people jump on for some reason.

Yeah.. I feel sorry for him too. The amount of time and energy he expends to debate and discredit OCZ's products and the company itself(although not completely undeserving of course). here and elsewhere.. is no better than the time I spend protecting my position of contentment using their products. Stones and glass houses and all that.

Not being the dullest tack around.. I of course do see your point with the above. BUT.. when you put into context his and others insinuation that I'm easily bought with a few hundred dollars worth of SSD's?.. it's quite obvious that his intentions are not purely a question of my interest here. No many spend the amount of time that he has/does here and elsewhere without some type of motive.

I.. and many others here apparently.. see it as an.. "FYI.. you can't trust that guy's opinion because he "get's compensated". Being quaint and shortwinded for once doesn't change the vibe that he often gives when commenting about ANY of OCZ's products or other business doings.

If he.. or the poster that started with the "undermining of my intentions here".. would have simply asked me if I worked for or tested for OCZ?.. the response would have been much shorter and much sweeter than it was. I make no secret of the fact that I test for them but simply don't think I need to create a sig that reads.. "I test for OCZ.. so take everything I say with a large dose of salt". After all this is the internet, and everyone should probably be doing that anyways. I like my drives and this one is the best to date. Period.. and end of that response.

In the end here.. I've bought many drives from many different mfgrs over the past few years..some of which I've actually taken a hit for in restocking fee's to get out from under them.. and I've returned or sold most of them.. again at a loss.. since they are not as geared towrds the enthusiast who likes to find this tech's limits.

So, as long as that company goes out of their way to give others free firmware speed upgrades and push the envelope with this tech?.. they will continue to get my money. I look at them as "sports jackets with track shoes". When another company takes over that role?.. I'll start buying that brand and tell you guys what I think about it.

 

[capeconsultant]

A true clone is no worse than a fresh install in this case. No worries. If it bothers you, clean up Device Manager's old hidden drive after the clone.

Thanks. I will check that. I was not aware it did that.

 

[Coup27]

Out of interest, does anybody know who manufactures the Barefoot 3 controller?

 

[josephjpeters]

Out of interest, does anybody know who manufactures the Barefoot 3 controller?

TSMC

 

[ryderOCZ]

Beat me to it.