New report on what everyone already knew - Pakistan is our enemy

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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
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Well Pershak, you manage to be totally wrong on two out of two counts.

1. What I advocate does involve throwing the umber corrupt Afghan government under the bus, the entity GWB embraced is incompatible with Nato success.

2. Yes we might get dumped on by half the world for meddling in Afghan affairs, but it beats the hell out of being dumped on by ALL the world for running an totally inept military occupation.

Nor do you remember world history, after 911 the international community practically begged the USA to fix Afghanistan, yet when GWB&co who lied their ass off asked the same world community for permission to fix Iraq, at the very best they got a uncommitted maybe if you feel froggie at best.

You will have to forgive lemon law on two accounts....

1-- He actually believes that NATO has authority....
2--He actually believes the UN has authority.....
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
You will have to forgive lemon law on two accounts....

1-- He actually believes that NATO has authority....
2--He actually believes the UN has authority.....
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Maybe we should instead ask what Jeditoda believes in? And that seemingly is the tooth fairy
or failing that maybe the Easterbunny.

In short Jedi, after 911, history shows the international community gave Nato all the authority they needed, the fact that Nato and more importantly the inept leadership of GWB&co proved unworthy of that larger international community support, is no reason to blame the international community.

But why should we be surprised about the GWB track record of embracing every Gin joint idiot that comes down the pike. It takes true inspired idiocy to embrace a proven thief and con man like Achmed Chalabi, so why should we be surprised when
GWB bet the farm on Karzai.
 
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Sclamoz

Guest
Sep 9, 2009
975
0
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Now there is a possibly productive idea we have never properly implemented.

As it is we say catch 22, we can't make progress in Afghanistan until we kill the last Taliban rascal, but we have a too small Nato occupation on the cheap to accomplish that lofty goal. So we jump all over Afghanistan, putting out wackimole fires, never staying in one place long enough to secure anything. Rinse and repeat for nine long years as Afghan anarchy becomes the the Afghan people's reality. It never occurs to anyone that if we want Nato to win, we need 620,000 troops or we are just pissing into the wackomole wind while consigning the Afghan people to the worst of all possible world's, perpetual anarchy inside of a shooting gallery. But we have that catch 22 excuse, gotta kill the Taliban first.

Well, if we are not willing to put up the troops and development money to secure all of Afghanistan, maybe saving a part of Afghanistan is better than nothing at all. Pick a part of Afghanistan, any part, flood the zone with Nato troops, chase the Taliban out, then do the harder part, chase the corrupt Afghan Government out and establish a government that works for the Afghan locals. And then commit the development dollars to modernize the place, roads, schools, hospitals, modern technology, while keeping our troops in place.

Do it right for a few years, then our troops can move on to secure other areas while even the Taliban will give up and realize that is the better idea for Afghanistan. After all, the Taliban ideology is just an idea, and to some extent a natural adaptive response to prior conditions, and ideas and minds can be changed.

The idea of focusing on securing parts of Afghanistan with more troops instead of all at once is what we are doing with the surge right now. The problem is the Taliban can't be defeated if they are being backed by Pakistan and the Madrases in Pakistan can provide them with more fighters whenever they need. It's impossible to know if you've driven the Taliban out a village or province and even if you have they can always come back.
 

grebe925

Member
Feb 22, 2008
88
0
0
Winning hearts and minds has been a key focus for a while now but it doesn't matter. You can't win hearts and minds when the Taliban attack a village everytime our soldiers visit. Or when the Taliban threaten to execute anyone who talks to a coalition soldier. No security = No hearts and minds.

This is really where NATO is getting it wrong. From time immemorial, Afghanistan has been fought over like a piece of prized meat between those who ruled Iran and those who ruled India. As such, they have known nothing but violence and to suddenly thrust hearts and minds into the picture is silly at best and, even worse, downright dangerous to the troops trying to execute the strategy. Afghanistan is not Iraq which has a sizeable middle-class and a lot more intellectual depth that can absorb such concepts. It is not even an agrarian society, it is completely broken and probably as close to the stone age as a country can get. Add to that the Pakistani jackals in whose interest it is to prolong the conflict so that they get showered with all the American moolah and the latest gadgetry and weapons and you can see how NATO is barking up every tree except the right one in stabilizing Afghanistan and getting out.
 

grebe925

Member
Feb 22, 2008
88
0
0
The idea of focusing on securing parts of Afghanistan with more troops instead of all at once is what we are doing with the surge right now. The problem is the Taliban can't be defeated if they are being backed by Pakistan and the Madrases in Pakistan can provide them with more fighters whenever they need. It's impossible to know if you've driven the Taliban out a village or province and even if you have they can always come back.

Indeed, the Taliban are like the Mafia and rule by terrorizing the populace. They have survived and flourished by melting away when force is applied and re-appear when the heat is turned down. And they can always cross the border where they have a lot of support from the Pakistanis themselves (as well as the Saudis and other Middle-Easterners who have always supported the Muslim radicals).
 

Noobtastic

Banned
Jul 9, 2005
3,721
0
0
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Maybe we should instead ask what Jeditoda believes in? And that seemingly is the tooth fairy
or failing that maybe the Easterbunny.

In short Jedi, after 911, history shows the international community gave Nato all the authority they needed, the fact that Nato and more importantly the inept leadership of GWB&co proved unworthy of that larger international community support, is no reason to blame the international community.

But why should we be surprised about the GWB track record of embracing every Gin joint idiot that comes down the pike. It takes true inspired idiocy to embrace a proven thief and con man like Achmed Chalabi, so why should we be surprised when
GWB bet the farm on Karzai.

the afghanistan war was planned weeks before 9/11. 9/11 was simply used as a pretext to drum up support for the war.

fighting the taliban - an organization that had nothing to do with 9/11 - and giving more money to pakistan, a country complicit in 9/11 and host to al-qaeda trolls - is what fucked everything up.

as bad as the taliban is our presence in afghanistan is now more or less crowd control.

we didnt invade afghanistan to make it a democracy, we invaded afghanistan to allegedly hunt osama bin laden and destroy al-qaeda.

the reality is osama bin laden is long gone, and there is now more al-qaeda in afghanistan then there was 6 years ago.
 

Danube

Banned
Dec 10, 2009
613
0
0
It was known a long time ago Pak intelligence was supportive of Taliban as opposed to Army and Musharraf. That was one of the factors Musharraf had to balance but US media worked to undercut him.
 

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
ISI head transferred 100,000 USD to mohammad Atta. I mean what more proof do you need. It is like the head of the CIA transferring 100,000 dollars to the black widows who then go and kill russian civilians.

What does pakistan get after all this, 11-20 Billion in free weapons to fight the taliban [Oliver Perry class ship, F-16's, AA missiles, hundreds of artillery pieces etc.

http://www.historycommons.org/timel...k=mahmoodAhmed&timeline=complete_911_timeline

September 30-October 7, 2001: US Media Report Hijackers Received $100,000 from Pakistan
...
However, Pakistan, a nuclear power, has already become a key US ally in the war on terror (see September 13-15, 2001). ISI Director Mahmood Ahmed, who is found to have had several telephone conversations with Saeed (see Summer 2000), is replaced (see October 7, 2001), and the story soon disappears from view (see September 24, 2001-December 26, 2002).
 
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