New server suggestions?

[Mirth]

Heya guys, I volunteer my time to help my church with thier network setup. But I think we've finally run into some problems that are bigger then my meager skills and amount of time I have to invest.

They are currently using an off the shelf Compaq computer to share files and act as a server for a membership database program. The connections are very poor and they are always D/C'ing. And because it's WinXP they have that dreaded 10 user limitation. Not that we have 10 people connecting at once, it just seems to be not renewing the list when someone drops and reconnects, therefore reaching the limit of 10 unnecessarily.

So, i've told them that it's probably time to upgrade to something serious. And perhaps bring in someone who reallys knows what they are doing. I've called several local IT companies which were supposed to come out and give me quotes, But one just doesn't return my calls, another has missed two appointments and a third has been promising a quote for over a month...

I've told them all that we have a budget for about $5000 dollars for this year, with another $5000 that we might be able to get at the begining of next year. The last guy I talked to said something to the effect of

"when you start adding all the things you need like CAS certs for each device, a backup system, etc., the best price we could get you is 10k. Now you may be able to qualify for a lower price somewhere else...but not for less than 7k"

Seems...steep.

All I need is to have about 8 users connect to a file server to share files, and for it to host this database that the other computers can access.

I've also been doing a little reading about NAS. Although I don't know if that's right for me, as I have to install this program on the server (in server mode) a NAS device doesn't have a typical OS...right?

Any advice towards how to go about this is greatly apreciated. Thank you

 

[p0lar]

I'm not a M$ guy so someone please step in to correct me when I'm wrong, but can't you up the limit on XP Pro to 40 connections through a registry or tcpip.sys hack of some sort?

 

[Nothinman]

The connections are very poor and they are always D/C'ing. And because it's WinXP they have that dreaded 10 user limitation. Not that we have 10 people connecting at once, it just seems to be not renewing the list when someone drops and reconnects, therefore reaching the limit of 10 unnecessarily.

That to me sounds like another issue that you need to fix before moving on. If the connection suddenly disappears the server has to wait for it to timeout before it'll close it's side which is likely what you're seeing.

Seems...steep.

Most contractors charge quite a bit of money so no I'm not surprised to see a quote that high.

I've also been doing a little reading about NAS. Although I don't know if that's right for me, as I have to install this program on the server (in server mode) a NAS device doesn't have a typical OS...right?

Most NAS devices out there either run Windows or Linux but they're usually cut down and possibly on flash. That and I'd bet that if you install anything on them you'd void your warranty.

Any advice towards how to go about this is greatly apreciated. Thank you

Find out what's causing the random disconnects and then you'll have all the time you need to find a more permanent solution.

 

[JackMDS]

In general the next step should be Windows 2003 SBS, ( http://www.microsoft.com/windo...r2003/sbs/default.mspx ).

However,, as mentioned above something is wrong as is since with less than 10 concurrent connections it should work well with WinXP Pro.

 

[Kelemvor]

Do you know anyone that works for a company as their Network person? Our church is having their new system setup by someone who is a Network Admin at a local place. He's donating his time to set it up and everything and then I'll take over from that to keep everything running if something breaks.

Might want to just poll the church members to se if anyone already has the experience that you need.

 

[Mirth]

p0lor, I had hoped to solve that problem with the purchase of a "real" server, but I have read about that hack. Something to do with a script.

Nothinman, the random d/c are likely caused by a ridiculously old and convoluted wiring scheme i've recently upgraded alot of the network to wireless, but that isn't possible for the entire place. And on top of this we have a total of ONE choice of ISP. and it's complete and utter crap.

 

[RebateMonger]

You should be able to meet your IT budget with a decent SBS 2003 Server. My "typical" SBS installs are in that ballpark, including a new Server with hardware RAID and ECC memory. It's definitely the painless way to get the increased connections and other services that are commonly needed by offices with 5 to 50 users.

Microsoft maintains a list of certified Microsoft Small Business Specialists in your area on their site: http://microsoft.com/smallbusiness/hub.mspx. See the "Find an IT Specialist" box in the upper right corner of that page.

 

[Mirth]

Jack, I just may have to do that. *scary*


Kelemvor, I've tried, some have offered to help. But none are exactly "network admins" That's why ended up looking for an outside company.

 

[Nothinman]

Nothinman, the random d/c are likely caused by a ridiculously old and convoluted wiring scheme i've recently upgraded alot of the network to wireless, but that isn't possible for the entire place. And on top of this we have a total of ONE choice of ISP. and it's complete and utter crap.

So is switching to something like wifi or ethernet over powerlines a possibility? Because no matter what software you choose you're going to run into problems if you have bad cabling.

 

[Mirth]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger
You should be able to meet your IT budget with a decent SBS 2003 Server. My "typical" SBS installs are in that ballpark, including a new Server with hardware RAID and ECC memory. It's definitely the painless way to get the increased connections and other services that are commonly needed by offices with 5 to 50 users.

Microsoft maintains a list of certified Microsoft Small Business Specialists in your area on their site: http://microsoft.com/smallbusiness/hub.mspx. See the "Find an IT Specialist" box in the upper right corner of that page.

OH awesome. I'm going to check this out. Thanks

 

[yuppiejr]

Hmmm...

So I did some basic pricing at Dell's website and came back with this config:

PowerEdge 840 Server with:

- Dual Core Intel® Xeon® 3060, 4MB Cache, 2.4GHz, 1066MHz FSB,
- Windows Server® 2003 R2, Standard x64 Edition with SP2, with 10 CALs (5 base + 5)
- 4GB DDR2, 667MHz, 4x1GB Dual Ranked DIMMs
- PERC 5i SAS internal Raid adapter, PCI -Express
- 4 x 250 gig hot swap 7200 RPM SATA drives
-Onboard Single Gigabit Network Adapter, No TOE
- RD1000, Internal SATA Drive Bay (Purchase Media separately below) + 3 x 160/320 gig cartridges
- 48x CDRW/DVD IDE Combo Drive, Half-Height
- Yosemite Backup Enhanced Pro Suite Backup Software
- 3Yr BASIC ENTERPRISE SUPPORT: 5x10 HW-Only,4hr 5x10 Onsite After Diagnosis
- ONSITE INSTALLATION: PowerEdge Hardware and Windows
- Dell 1500VA Uninterruptible Power Supply, Stand Alone, 120v

TOTAL: $4,121.45

Note that this configuration includes Windows 2003 R2 x64 with 10 CALs, a complete backup system, 1500VA UPS, 3 year on-site hardware support and initial setup of the hardware and server o/s by a Dell tech. I did not include an anti-virus suite or SQL licenses since I assume you have this covered already.

This should be more than enough to play nicely as a domain controller, file/print server and a database box for 8-10 users.

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: yuppiejr
So I did some basic pricing at Dell's website and came back with this config:

TOTAL: $4,121.45

For the office that they are talking about, using a Dell server, I'd likely recommend a server that's around $2000 (including removable SATA backup hard drives), plus $1000 for the SBS 2003 OS and around $2000 for the installation, configuration, training, etc. SBS 2003 Premium Edition, which is about all I use, includes SQL 2005 and ISA 2004 licenses. AV is around $30 per year per person in a Server-based solution.

That'd give you RAID 1 hard drives for data storage, full remote access, a complete email server, automated monitoring and reporting, automated backups, built-in internal web sites, and lots of other features that'll help you organize and share data. And protect it with offsite backups.

 

[yuppiejr]

Also, what sort of database are we talking about here - SQL/Access/etc...?

 

[hiromizu]

They need a much bigger budget for a solid Windows based network. Realistically they're going to need $10,000 upfront for the server hardware, software and licenses. Add to that another 20-30 hours for the technical labour and user training and we're really looking at about $15,000 no matter how you slice it unless you're going for a cheap hack that's going to give you problems again. Also not sure if they're all desktops but if they are, wireless is a terrible solution for connectivity to servers and if the current wiring is toast, add in another few Gs for wiring and the total will go upwards of $20,000.

I'd recommend that you get the church a proper quote from one of the consultants and draw the line there. You'll set yourself up for trouble if you try to help.

 

[OoteR02]

What DB is that program running??

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: hiromizu

They need a much bigger budget for a solid Windows based network.

Hmmmm....My company probably installs and manages more Windows Small Business Servers in Arizona than any other consulting company. We have two Microsoft Small Business Specialists, who are Microsoft-certified in small business servers and networks. I WISH I could charge $15K for a single SBS Server install. But $5K is more typical.

Yeah, 20-30 hours is about the labor involved. Obviously, it varies depending on the particular situation and requirements. The biggest variable is in setting up the networking and getting the client PCs up to snuff. As long as you have ECC memory and a reliable RAID array, the Server should be rock solid. My own two $400 SBS Servers (lowest-end Dells) have been up without a break for nearly four years now. No hacks. Just solid hardware and installation and maintenance following MS best practices.

 

[kevnich2]

Just my .02, first, get the physical network infrastructure fixed. A state of the art million dollar server is pointless if your physical wiring is bad. It's not hard to just go through and while pulling the old cable, attach new cat5e or cat6 cable to it and replace it. After that, get a cheapy small server on dell's outlet website. For a small budget church, I wouldn't worry about a backup tape drive, I would instead just put in another $100 hard drive in another machine on the network and just do a nightly/weekly/monthly backup to it. As far as maintenance, poll the congregation and see if anyone has any experience with this and wouldn't mind volunteering their time. Personally, this is what I did at my last church that I grew up in. They had a very small budget (almost nothing but I had to beg to get equipment that would suffice) but I was able to, after a few years get their network and computers atleast to a working state. For this church, I just used a higher end computer with Windows XP Pro that pulled double duty as both a file server, database server (Not SQL, some properietary database software) and their presenation system for doing powerpoint systems. This could all be had for probably....$2,000 hardware.

 

[skyking]

^ what he said.
If you have any questions about the network itself, get that fixed. IMO, and real network does not involve wireless as the backbone.
I know it is not always a solution to run wires everywhere, but do minimize reliance on wireless as much as possible.

 

[JackMDS]

I would along with kevnich2 notions.

There is a lot of useful pro information in this thread but it is Not balanced for the specific situation at hand.

Most of the advise give here is based on the hidden assumption that the majority of pro Networks installation are for business and long down time due to Network failure might be the end of the business.

The OP is talking about humble voluntary organization, and if the cost of a computer system exceeds of what it can brings back there is No real use for it.

As a first step it might be better to first do a real analysis of what is wrong with current system and better understanding of the needs.

As functional first step it might be better dealing with cabling and infra structure and saving on fancy server and RAID systems. A computer can allways be taken off line and another one being put instead.

If someone is currently resides in a "tent", a nice "ranch house" can be a good solution, there is No need to build a corporate sky scraper.

 

[RebateMonger]

I kinda' ignored the networking part of the question because it shouldn't be hard to fix. Run a continuous connectivity and transfer rate program between the "Server" and the various client PCs and find which connections are failing and fix them. A lot of times it's simply because the folks doing the wiring don't use patch panels and try to crimp RJ45 connectors on the ends of cables.

Without knowing what the physical layout of the PCs and switches are, it's impossible to suggest what a rebuild of the network would involve.

 

[Modelworks]

To solve your wiring issue you might want to look at ethernet extenders.
If you have any telephone wiring in place it can use that .
Ethernet extenders can run ethernet distances up to 2 miles.
Its cheap to implement , under 300.00, and is very reliable even on the worst of wiring.

Its basically the same thing phone companies use for dsl so it works well over existing lines.
http://www.netsys-direct.com/p...prod=NVF-200EKIT&cat=7