New to SSDs? Read this first before asking questions! (UPDATED 07/17/2011)

[WaTaGuMp]

I found a good deal on a Samsung 470 128gb, $180.45 shipped. Site had it for $189.45 and when I went to leave it asked if I wanted another 5% off, so I took it. :biggrin:

 

[ShadowVVL]

I got a few questions about ssd for caching

1. Does using a ssd for caching use write cycles?

2. Does ssd caching work with raided volumes like 2 wd 1tb raid 0 + ssd caching?

3. Can it be done on 775 boards boards or only 1155 socket and newer?

4. Will it work on vista?

5. Does it require trimming or substitute?

 

[mooncancook]

I recently upgraded to a SSD and Win7 and your guide helped a lot. I have a question regarding the part about moving the "My" folders from the SSD to another drive. So I found the folder c:\Users\User1. Do I move the entire "User1" folder to the other drive, or only the "My" folders and "Downloads" folders inside the "User1" folder to the other drive? Thanks.

 

[UpstartXT]

I recently upgraded to a SSD and Win7 and your guide helped a lot. I have a question regarding the part about moving the "My" folders from the SSD to another drive. So I found the folder c:\Users\User1. Do I move the entire "User1" folder to the other drive, or only the "My" folders and "Downloads" folders inside the "User1" folder to the other drive? Thanks.

Don't do it that way.

*Click on the start menu

*Click on your user name

*Right-click on the "My Documents" folder and go to Properties

*Go to the location tab

*Change the location to one of your choice

*Rinse and repeat for the other folders

 

[Zap]

Move only the "My" folders.

UpstartXT's directions is probably the "proper" method, but the drag/drop method has always worked for me in Win7. *SHRUG*

 

[stukan]

Which SSD should I buy? updated 05/30/2011


Best SSDs to buy
These are all known good SSDs that give reasonably high performance and are resilient to performance degradation. The most popular ones are listed first.

SandForce SF2200/SF2500 series controller based drives
OCZ Vertex 3, Vertex 3 Pro, Agility 3, Solid 3

I have read from the Anandtech review on OCZ Agility3 and believed it is an excellent drive and purchase one with the latest firmware v 2.09 two weeks ago. I use ghost.exe v11.5 to copy my w7 ultimate from my Seagate hard disk to the Agility3. My w7 has been running on a Gigabyte P965 DS3 v3.3 on my Seagate hard disk for more than three years without a crash or BSOD. However, I am suffering constant crashes (crash, not BSOD) daily. I have posted on OCZ forum and yet waiting for an answer to the fix(es). I have to return to run jy w7 on my Seagate drive.

Google for fixes on the web and found there were too numerous complains on the Agility 3. Firmware v2.09 is suppose the fix the problems but obviously, it does not.

I post this message because I saw your post and recommended the best SSD to buy to include Agility 3, and I stand to object to it.

The OCZ Agility 3 :thumbsdown: is not a reliable drive. Perhaps OCZ hand picked their drives for Hardware Sites to review, but the volume of complains on the web is overwhelming..overwhelming. Poor reliability and failure to fix problems makes this drive meaningless, no matter how good the drive performance excel.

Firmware v2.09 is suppose to fix all problems but it does not. Nor, OCZ is willing to acknowledges v2.09 is still problematic. There is no announcement from OCZ for the next version update. Mind you that not all Agility 3 drives has the same problems. There can be ones that must be problem free, which reflect a very poor quality control for making the product by OCZ. Being a past QA manager for both NS Semiconductor and Fairchild Semiconductor, I wonder if OCZ failed to QC substandard parts into their products.

And I doubted if OCZ is willing to recall their drives but recall they should be.
Hard disks have been recalled in the past! Semiconductor parts have been recalled in the past.

For those who are looking to purchase SSD drives, I strongly suggest they should google the web for reliable ones, rather than to base on the reviews of the Hardware Sites.

Please delete Agility 3 from your recommended list of best SSD to buy.

Stukan

 

[Zap]

Hello stukan, and welcome to AnandTech Forums.

A lot of hardware is iffy if you are an early adopter. Just go talk to anyone who purchased any socket 1155 motherboard in the first month they were out. Heck, even now there are some socket 1155 motherboards with issues. I remember back when socket 1366 was new - lots of memory issues.

With SSDs, Intel has an issue with their current model 320, and even previous models had firmware issues - even as far as releasing botched firmware which was pulled. I point out Intel because they are widely considered the most reliable for an SSD brand.

And as you mentioned, HDDs have been recalled in the past. I remember WD doing it. Seagate has had to release firmware updates for their 7200.11 drives (I owned several which needed updating).

The takeaway from this is that if you don't want to deal with issues, you should not jump on the "bleeding edge."

I will NOT remove the drives from my recommended list because that list is there mostly for performance aspects. However, I will put a disclaimer in there.

Oh yeah, aside from crashes, do you know if your partition was aligned properly? Cloning from a HDD to an SSD usually results in misaligned partitions, which causes a performance penalty as well as lifespan penalty.

 

[stukan]

I believe you have miss my point. The issue is that you have recommended a problematic SSD drive as a BEST BUY.

Whatever excuses for the problematic Agility3, it is hard to warrant an unreliable drive to be a BEST BUY.

Please be reminded SSD is getting popular and a lot of people will jump onboard. I, for one, normally read review of Hardware Site such as Anandtech before purchasing one. If Agility3 is iffy because it is an early adoption of SATA3 SSD, then, even with that excuse, Agility3 should not be recommended as a BEST BUY because the product cannot function properly.


You have mentioned Intel has problems with the socket 1155 and 1156 motherboards, but Intel is swift to acknowledge and correct their problems.

Better still, Intel sent out a recall for their socket 1156 motherboard. This is an example what a responsible manufacturer should do.

If Agility3 problems are just as swiftly corrected, I would have recommended it as a BEST BUY to my friends rather than making my post here.

Iffy products are acceptable is they are corrected swiftly. I am not against iffy products at their early adoption of the latest technology.

The iffy Agility3 and its family of products, since their debut, have plagued with troubles. And, with no end in sight, that is not acceptable.


Your logic that user buys a new product should take the risks of its consequence, is hard to swallow.

I cannot accept the logic that end-users are to blame for using iffy new products and risk the consequences. It is the manufacture's responsibility to assure their products to function satisfactory.


Your refusal to take Agility3 off the BEST BUY list makes me wonder if your bases for consideration for BEST BUY is reasonable!

BEST BUY means a product that functions satisfactory with the best price/performance.

By ignoring product function satisfactory, you have redefine the meaning of BEST BUY. Adding a disclaimer to the product as a BEST BUY seems to get yourself off the hook, it does not make the product a best buy.


Hence, my last question is, by defining BEST BUY to based on performance alone:

Is this the official criteria that Anandtech embraces?


[I seriously hope I will get a direct yes/no answer rather a work-around explanation!!! Worst still, the question may be ignored!!!]

FYI:
My Agility3 has been checked with Paragon Alignment Tool 2.0 for proper alignment.

In fact, not waiting for OCZ to come up with their fixes, I have google hours and hours to experiment with fixes. But this is beyond the point. BEST BUY products must function properly with the best price/performance. If not, remedies must be swift and effective.

I will continue to post at your forum and others to put the heat on OCZ until the much delayed issues are resolved. And I advise others to wait before jumping onboard on Agility3.


Stukan

 

[Zap]

I believe you have miss my point.

Our points seemed to have missed each other completely.

Your logic that user buys a new product should take the risks of its consequence, is hard to swallow.

Is it right? No. However, it is the truth of much hardware today. Early adopters of new tech often get burned.

It is the manufacture's responsibility to assure their products to function satisfactory.

It is the manufacturer's responsibility to assure that their products function to specifications, and if it doesn't then that's what warranties are for.

I don't use the term satisfactory because I've known people to be not satisfied even if the part performed as specified, due to unmet expectations. Whether their expectations were reasonable is up to interpretation.

Your refusal to take Agility3 off the BEST BUY list

I refuse to take it off my list because from my point of view you are a random person who is new here and unknown to me, and making demands of me that I do not feel is reasonable.

If the Agility 3 has a 100% failure rate, then your request is completely reasonable. If it has a 50% failure rate, your request is completely reasonable. If it has a 25% failure rate, your request is completely reasonable. If it has a 1% failure rate, your request is unreasonable. If it has an unknown failure rate, then your request is unreasonable.

Do you have any kind of reputable proof of what the true failure rate is?

Note that OCZ sells SSDs by the boat load, so even if they have the same failure rate as other drives (and I'm not saying they do) they would still have a much higher volume of problems/complaints.

BEST BUY means a product that functions satisfactory with the best price/performance.

I did not say "best buy." I said "best to buy," with my definition listed as:

"These are all known good SSDs that give reasonably high performance and are resilient to performance degradation."

What I wrote is my own definition. What you wrote is your own definition. I'm sure other people have their own definitions that may or may not align with either of ours.

Hence, my last question is, by defining BEST BUY to based on performance alone:

See my "best to buy" above.

Is this the official criteria that Anandtech embraces?

I do not represent AnandTech.

I will saw, however, that the majority of computer hardware review sites use performance as a major rating criteria, and features/price when performance is the same, such as with motherboards. You may or may not agree with that stance. Feel free to start your own hardware review site that does not rate hardware by performance.

I will continue to post at your forum and others to put the heat on OCZ until the much delayed issues are resolved.

I see you have an agenda. There are plenty of OCZ haters here so you are welcome with open arms.

I'll help you.

If you want to "force" me to change my recommendations, you can always complain here, or even click on the "report post" icon (that little red triangle to the left of the offending post). That would put my post under scrutiny by other moderators.

You can also "encourage" me to change my recommendations by providing some reputable failure rate information on these drives, or even run polls to see what the general population thinks.

EDIT: I re-read your first post and you said "please" (we both went downhill from there) so I'll put it to a poll.

 

[onethreehill]

Best SSDs to buy
These are all known good SSDs that give reasonably high performance and are resilient to performance degradation. The most popular ones are listed first.

SandForce SF2200/SF2500 series controller based drives
OCZ Vertex 3, Vertex 3 Pro, Agility 3, Solid 3
OWC Mercury Extreme Pro 6G
Corsair Force Series 3, Force GT

Nice sticky
I would like to suggest updating the list with Adata, Patriot, Kingston and OWC Mercury Electra 6G SSDs

 

[vincedea]

So im considering to get the OCZ vertex 3 or the Cruical M4. is there any difference to whihc one would be a better buy. In your list you have the OCZ higher. The ssd will be running in a laptop. Would like to make the better decision as this will be my frist SSD. I also will be getting the 120g or the 128g. thanks for your help

 

[Zap]

In your list you have the OCZ higher.

The list is a grouping, not a ranking. Position doesn't matter, only which group it is in.

I'd say if running Windows 7, most would recommend the M4 at this time due to reliability/warranty concerns.

 

[vincedea]

The list is a grouping, not a ranking. Position doesn't matter, only which group it is in.

I'd say if running Windows 7, most would recommend the M4 at this time due to reliability/warranty concerns.

As i was looking around the forum i read some people recommending the samsung 470. What are your thoughts on that ssd? On newegg it has some solid reviews.

 

[Zap]

It should be a solid if unexciting drive. There's an upcoming Samsung SSD that should bring some excitement (as in performance).

 

[vincedea]

It should be a solid if unexciting drive. There's an upcoming Samsung SSD that should bring some excitement (as in performance).

So for my money should I go ahead and get the m4 or wait for the new samsung sad? I would like to order by end of next week but if the samsung will be better I don't mind waiting

 

[Zap]

The m4 is faster than the 470, but the upcoming Samsung will catch up in performance.

 

[vincedea]

The m4 is faster than the 470, but the upcoming Samsung will catch up in performance.

M4 it is thanks for the help

 

[vincedea]

i ordered my M4 and was curious on how to upgrade firmware. do i do it before installing win7 and it is pretty much straight forward? thanks for the help again

 

[Zap]

I've never had an m4 so I've never tried any firmware updates on it. That being said, go download it and read the instructions. I would generally recommend updating it BEFORE installing Windows on it.

 

[TheAtreidesHawk]

So this tutorial seems really useful but right off the bat you say...

"Enable AHCI"

How exactly does one do that? I get that you do it thru the BIOS but some real concrete steps would be helpful...and do you do this before you even install the SSD into your system? Or do you do it AFTER the SSD is installed?

Lastly you're saying in Win 7 the Documents, Music, and Video folders can be migrated over to the HDD? I just want to keep my videos there to be honest and my music/documents on the SSD. Is there any way to accomplish this?

However my most pressing concern is the AHCI issue. Thanks in advance to anyone who an help.

 

[videopho]

I got a few questions about ssd for caching

1. Does using a ssd for caching use write cycles?

2. Does ssd caching work with raided volumes like 2 wd 1tb raid 0 + ssd caching?

3. Can it be done on 775 boards boards or only 1155 socket and newer?

4. Will it work on vista?

5. Does it require trimming or substitute?

I wanted to know the answers for most of these questions too.
Any one?

 

[taltamir]

Ask and you shall receive.

First, it is important to understand that caching is a software solution, currently only intel is offering it but NOT all caching is going to be from intel. There are other companies working on releasing their own solutions. This means that there will be different implementations and the answers to the questions you ask will vary by individual implementation rather then being universal to caching as a whole.

1. Does using a ssd for caching use write cycles?

Yes, it does. But not enough that you should worry about it.

2. Does ssd caching work with raided volumes like 2 wd 1tb raid 0 + ssd caching?

2. According to:
http://download.intel.com/support/m...ntel_smart_response_technology_user_guide.pdf

*Intel® Z68 Express Chipset-based desktop board
* Intel® Core™ Processor in the LGA 1155 package
* System BIOS with SATA mode set to RAID
* Intel Rapid Storage Technology software 10.5 version release or later
* Single Hard Disk Drive (HDD) or multiple HDD’s in a single RAID volume
* Solid State Drive (SSD) with a minimum capacity of 18.6GB
* Operating system: Microsoft Windows* Vista 32-bit Edition and 64-bit Edition, Microsoft Windows 7 32-bit Edition and 64-bit

Intel says yes for their implementation.

3. Can it be done on 775 boards boards or only 1155 socket and newer?

3. You should look here
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4329/intel-z68-chipset-smart-response-technology-ssd-caching-review/2

Originally called SSD Caching, Intel is introducing a feature called Smart Response Technology (SRT) alongside Z68. Make no mistake, this isn't a hardware feature but it's something that Intel is only enabling on Z68. All of the work is done entirely in Intel's RST 10.5 software, which will be made available for all 6-series chipsets but Smart Response Technology is artificially bound to Z68 alone (and some mobile chipsets—HM67, QM67).

It CAN be done on 775, but currently intel is ONLY releasing it for SOME! (NOT ALL!) 1155 socket mobos.

Only if your mobo explicitly states it comes with SRT can you expect to have it. It would have ran fine on 775 had intel chosen to allow it, but they do not because they aren't selling 775 mobos and want you to upgrade. I really would have liked to see intel sell SRT (at reasonable price) for other mobos (it is free with Z68), rather then just saying "buy a new mobo or no SRT for you!"

Lucky you, intel's competitors aren't so greedy and supposedly alternative solutions will be available soon that will work on anything. And there is a good chance that intel will allow it for other devices once they hit the market.

PS. note that intel are stupid and manage to name two completely seperate technologies as "Intel SRT(TM)".
One is Intel Smart Response Technology, this is the SSD caching.
The other is Intel System Recovery Technology, this is not what you want.
Buyer beware.

4. Will it work on vista?

4. You know, never once did I see any review actually SPECIFY that... and I didn't find the result by googling the answer.
I did however have the presence of mind to google "intel smart response system requirements" and found the spec block I posted for Q2, where you can see that it says that Vista is supported.

5. Does it require trimming or substitute?

5. TRIM is something you do for extra performance, not due to requirement. I have no idea if it supports TRIM or not.

 

[Zap]

"Enable AHCI"

How exactly does one do that? I get that you do it thru the BIOS but some real concrete steps would be helpful...and do you do this before you even install the SSD into your system? Or do you do it AFTER the SSD is installed?

Yes, through BIOS. Do this after the SSD is physically hooked up and before you install Windows. Note that this is highly recommended, but not required. You may get lower performance without AHCI enabled, but still higher performance than a HDD.

As for "concrete steps" to navigate BIOS, that is outside the scope of this thread. The reason is that different manufacturers (and even different motherboard models) implement this differently. I can give you the instructions on how to enable it on my Asus P8P67 Pro, but it may or may not correspond to whatever motherboard/BIOS you are using.

Lastly you're saying in Win 7 the Documents, Music, and Video folders can be migrated over to the HDD? I just want to keep my videos there to be honest and my music/documents on the SSD. Is there any way to accomplish this?

Yes. You can move one or move all.

1) Install Windows 7 on to SSD without the HDD installed.
2) Install HDD, create partition on it in Windows.
3) Under Libraries in Windows Explorer, find My Videos (under Videos) and right click on it to get to Properties. Click on the Location tab, and edit it to point to the HDD.

From then on, any software that by default saves to the "My Videos" location will automatically save to the HDD (or wherever you pointed it). Note that I also do this with my Downloads directory.

One point of interest is that Windows will default to spinning down your HDD into sleep mode if it hasn't been accessed in a while. This means when you go to access/save something in My Videos after not doing such for a while (30min default?) the software will act as if it has stopped responding for a few seconds (2-5s), until the HDD spins back up. This is by design, to save power. You can change the setting in Control Panel > Power Options to a longer time or disable this. If you access it frequently, it won't be an issue.

 

[taltamir]

Personally I recommend keeping your documents in a directory called "Actual Documents"
because countless programs pollute "My Documents" with their settings, saves, and junk.
So you can leave "my documents" on the SSD, just make sure it doesn't have any actual documents there, only software settings

 

[timoseewho]

Hello! I'm looking into purchasing an SSD for the first time but I know very little about what SSD caching really means. Is it just keeping extra storage aside to speed up programs? All I know is that I need a Z68 board to support it. Do I just install the SSD like any regular HDD and later on I'll get prompted about this? Is the storage for SSD caching outside of the space for the OS? When I do end up getting an SSD, I will most likely also get a separate HDD with relatively big space, is it recommended to install all my games, programs, etc. on this HDD? Thanks guys!