New trigonometry gets rid of sine, cosine and tangent for algebra..

Analog

Lifer
Jan 7, 2002
12,755
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Mathematics students have cause to celebrate. A University of New South Wales academic, Dr Norman Wildberger, has rewritten the arcane rules of trigonometry and eliminated sines, cosines and tangents from the trigonometric toolkit.

What's more, his simple new framework means calculations can be done without trigonometric tables or calculators, yet often with greater accuracy.

Established by the ancient Greeks and Romans, trigonometry is used in surveying, navigation, engineering, construction and the sciences to calculate the relationships between the sides and vertices of triangles.

"Generations of students have struggled with classical trigonometry because the framework is wrong," says Wildberger, whose book is titled Divine Proportions: Rational Trigonometry to Universal Geometry (Wild Egg books).

Dr Wildberger has replaced traditional ideas of angles and distance with new concepts called "spread" and "quadrance".

These new concepts mean that trigonometric problems can be done with algebra," says Wildberger, an associate professor of mathematics at UNSW.

"Rational trigonometry replaces sines, cosines, tangents and a host of other trigonometric functions with elementary arithmetic."

"For the past two thousand years we have relied on the false assumptions that distance is the best way to measure the separation of two points, and that angle is the best way to measure the separation of two lines.

"So teachers have resigned themselves to teaching students about circles and pi and complicated trigonometric functions that relate circular arc lengths to x and y projections ? all in order to analyse triangles. No wonder students are left scratching their heads," he says.

"But with no alternative to the classical framework, each year millions of students memorise the formulas, pass or fail the tests, and then promptly forget the unpleasant experience.

"And we mathematicians wonder why so many people view our beautiful subject with distaste bordering on hostility.

"Now there is a better way. Once you learn the five main rules of rational trigonometry and how to simply apply them, you realise that classical trigonometry represents a misunderstanding of geometry."

http://www.physorg.com/news6555.html
 

Willoughbyva

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2001
3,267
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I am interested in this. I dislike math, but want to know how to do math stuff. If it is easier then I might give it a try.
 

ngvepforever2

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2003
1,269
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I don't see a need to get rid of them. Kids should just be taught not to memorize sh!t in math because almost everything (Theorems) has a reason and a proof. Therefore, they should be taught to analize stuff and learn where sine,cosine and tangent come from .

<===loves sine, cosinge and tangent

Regards

ng
 

Jpark

Platinum Member
Nov 15, 2003
2,906
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I'm a surveyor/engineer and we use sine cosine and tangent everyday. I'm interested to see if this will impact us.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,666
28,042
136
Check out chapter one from his book...

web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~norman/book.htm
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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Originally posted by: Jpark
I'm a surveyor/engineer and we use sine cosine and tangent everyday. I'm interested to see if this will impact us.

No, it won't impact you.
It's piqued my curiosity, I'll check out what he has to say, but for the most part, he sounds like a nut-case. I highly doubt he has an alternative that is even slightly simpler. I'd also like to see how his alternate method is handled by calculus.

The derivative of sin is cos. The derivative of cos is -sin. The derivatives of the other 4 trig functions are simply derived from these two by simple rules. What could be simpler???
Or, does this nutcase think we can make a baby math class for innumerate people. Then, anyone wanting to go on into real mathematics can re-learn everything from scratch??

I'll see soon enough.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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"Now there is a better way. Once you learn the five main rules of rational trigonometry and how to simply apply them, you realise that classical trigonometry represents a misunderstanding of geometry."

Noooo.... perhaps you realize that your teacher taught you "how" and not "why" though. I always attempt to get my students to understand the trig functions beyond the basic rules and buttons on the calculator.
 

KillerCharlie

Diamond Member
Aug 21, 2005
3,691
68
91
Originally posted by: DrPizza
Originally posted by: Jpark
I'm a surveyor/engineer and we use sine cosine and tangent everyday. I'm interested to see if this will impact us.

No, it won't impact you.
It's piqued my curiosity, I'll check out what he has to say, but for the most part, he sounds like a nut-case. I highly doubt he has an alternative that is even slightly simpler. I'd also like to see how his alternate method is handled by calculus.

The derivative of sin is cos. The derivative of cos is -sin. The derivatives of the other 4 trig functions are simply derived from these two by simple rules. What could be simpler???
Or, does this nutcase think we can make a baby math class for innumerate people. Then, anyone wanting to go on into real mathematics can re-learn everything from scratch??

I'll see soon enough.


Yeah it sounds like this new crap isn't very conducive to calculus.



 

SVT Cobra

Lifer
Mar 29, 2005
13,264
2
0
Originally posted by: DrPizza
Originally posted by: Jpark
I'm a surveyor/engineer and we use sine cosine and tangent everyday. I'm interested to see if this will impact us.

No, it won't impact you.
It's piqued my curiosity, I'll check out what he has to say, but for the most part, he sounds like a nut-case. I highly doubt he has an alternative that is even slightly simpler. I'd also like to see how his alternate method is handled by calculus.

The derivative of sin is cos. The derivative of cos is -sin. The derivatives of the other 4 trig functions are simply derived from these two by simple rules. What could be simpler???
Or, does this nutcase think we can make a baby math class for innumerate people. Then, anyone wanting to go on into real mathematics can re-learn everything from scratch??

I'll see soon enough.

I do not think you are giving him enough merit...think back to when you learned trig....sure everything might be derived from sin and cos but he gets rid of those compteley...think about it...the shortest distance between two points is a line...but is that always the best way to measure it? this stuff might be revolutionary...I want too see more of this....I might buy his book
 

ngvepforever2

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2003
1,269
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0
Originally posted by: DrPizza
"Now there is a better way. Once you learn the five main rules of rational trigonometry and how to simply apply them, you realise that classical trigonometry represents a misunderstanding of geometry."

Noooo.... perhaps you realize that your teacher taught you "how" and not "why" though. I always attempt to get my students to understand the trig functions beyond the basic rules and buttons on the calculator.

agree with whatever Dr.nolongerPizza says

Regards

ng
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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I spent one hour on chapter 1. What he has is equivalent to what is already being used.
His main objection to trig: students don't understand angles?! wtf??
Ask any 8 year old what it means if Tony Hawk does a 1080 and they can reply 3 full rotations.
"What if he spins around 360 degrees" 1 rotation.

I'll give him credit though; his method may make some calculations easier. Simultaneously, his method would make other calculations harder.
Although he mentioned it, I'd love to see how he treats harmonic motion...
Furthermore, it seems as if he is completely going to ignore the number Pi.
I certainly hope no one thinks there is a quadratic equation with rational coefficients which has a root of pi.
I will agree with the author that the radians system of measuring angles is difficult for students to grasp - that's because they already have such a firm grasp of angles that they don't want to let go. This is one of my biggest challenges for pre-calculus students.
But, once they get to calculus, there are a variety of problems, such as related rates problems where the angle (or spread for the author) is increasing at a non-linear rate. These problems are a piece of cake to do in radians and trig.

Furthermore, the author pointed to the classical solution to a triangle problem (the one with sides 4,5,6 where he wants the length of a segment extended at 45 degrees from one corner to the opposite side)
The author started the problem for the classical case by using the law of cosines. However, once he had cos(alpha) = (whatever it was), he said that students would use the buttons on the calculator to find alpha. I'd like to point out that the students would only do it for convenience, because the calculator is there. Simple use of the pythagorean theorem, mean proportions (if one constructs a segment perpendicular from his new point), etc. can be used to find the same solution the author had. He pointed out that while his solution was longer, it was better because it resulted in the square root of 7. Big whoopty do. If I used classical trig and ignored my calculator, my solution was longer also and gave the same results. But, I could have hit the inverse cosine buttons on a cheap scientific calculator and saved time if I wanted the answer good to a certain number of digits. Could he have saved time? I suppose, if he used a TI89 rather than a TI X-IIS or something.

This guy teaches at a university. I teach remedial level math students every day. I find that his conclusions about what causes trouble for math students to be wrong. Furthermore, my preliminary findings (after only one chapter) are that his method would be more difficult to get students to learn. I don't have students who ask me "why are we using angles? What's an angle?" But I feel students would question, "why the hell are we using the distance squared and not the distance?"

The author pointed out that the pythagoreans used to believe that all numbers are rational. (until they came up with square root of 2. The unfortunate person who correctly pointed out that square root of 2 wasn't rational, was drowned. Lucky him.) This author seemed to imply that we could completely revolutionize mathematics by rethinking how we measure things. So, instead of measuring distance, I guess we'll be measuring the squares of distances and we'll never need irrational numbers. Great. City A is 36 quadrance miles away from me. City B is 144 quadrance miles away from me. How much longer will it take me to drive to City B than City A? Twice as long? Ohh, I guess we DO need square roots.

Basically, my evaluation of his first chapter is this:
This is very smart mathematician with more brains than common sense. Sure, he has an equivalent system for working out the same problems that we can already work out using trig. However, he's convinced himself that his method is better, and I suspect, that's about the only person he's going to convince.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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*Just in case someone still thinks this guy may be on to something, I pose the following basic, just learning how to do trig, question:*

Classical trig:
A 20 foot ladder is leaning against a wall at an angle of 60 degrees. How far from the wall is the base of the ladder?"

Rational trig:
A 20 foot ladder (or should I say, a ladder with a quadrance of 400? or something like that?) is leaning against a wall at a spread of 3/4. How far from the wall is the base of the ladder? (according to that author, 60 degrees converted to a spread of 3/4)

My classical trig students realize that the proportion of the base of the right triangle to the hypotenuse for similar triangles is always the same. For a right triangle with a base angle of 60 degrees, this proportion is 1/2. So, the ladder is 10 feet from the side of the house. Now, I don't expect them to memorize the proportions for all of the possible base angles, so I can either give them a list of those proportions or I can let them use a calculator to look up those proportions. The heading of that list is called "sin". There are 5 other possible proportions.
a. this problem is easy. b. I can get students to understand it - even the weak math students.
 

EyeMWing

Banned
Jun 13, 2003
15,670
1
0
Crackpot alarms. Someone get me the ISBN for this thing and I'll order a copy from Penn State's vast resources.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,666
28,042
136
Originally posted by: EyeMWing
Crackpot alarms. Someone get me the ISBN for this thing and I'll order a copy from Penn State's vast resources.

I read chapter one. I don't think he is a crackpot. His book is written toward math instructors and other mathmaticians. I don't know if anything will come of it but I think it might be worth exploring. There are probably teachers out there who can take what he is proposing and better present it for students. It is far too premature to discard his methodology or to rush into class with it.
 

mdchesne

Banned
Feb 27, 2005
2,810
1
0
trig could always be done with algebra, that's nothing new

we had to learn cos, sin, tan, ln and the rest using no calculators. simple radians and algebra were all we were allowed
 

Rhombuss

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2000
1,544
0
0
Originally posted by: Jpark
I'm a surveyor/engineer and we use sine cosine and tangent everyday. I'm interested to see if this will impact us.

I'm a structural engineer, and there's no way this will impact our industry. Thousands of our design equations are based on classical trig, and it's probably even more so with mechanical/hydraulic engineers. They're not going to modify all those design codes because some professor thinks he's found an easier way to do trig (which I believe isn't the case).
 
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