New York Times Business Day: Affordable Housing Draws Middle Class to Inland Cities

[Blackjack200]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/04/b...rives-middle-class-to-cities-inland.html?_r=0

Some of the newcomers say that as they contemplated living with roommates, sitting in traffic and barely scraping by, the good things about life in a high-cost city lost their appeal. “The beach isn’t going to pay my rent,” said Jacqueline Sit, 32, who left Portland, Ore., where she worked as a television reporter, to come to Oklahoma City, where she quickly found a job in public relations.

But, Mr. Glaeser says, there is also a historical trend driven by severe restrictions on building new housing in highly regulated cities like San Francisco, Washington and New York. Whereas high housing prices were once a sign of growth because they indicated strong demand, now they are more a function of limited supply. Midlevel prices (as opposed to rock-bottom values in places like Detroit) have become a better predictor of growth.

I've mentioned before that I'm really interested in how the American population copes with wages that have been stagnent for thirty or more years. I posted an article months ago about how more and more people were choosing to live with roomates so they could have extra money to spend on to other things.

I personally enjoy living with a roomate. I lived by myself for five years and ended up really lonely. I think it's an individual thing. I totally agree on the traffic, to me it's one of the worst downsides of where I live.

 

[manimal]

We moved from upper west side manhattan to Carmel indiana and wouldnt go back. After living in socal and east coast and traveling for 15 plus years just hanging out in carmel and going on more vacations is just fine with us. Rat race gets to folks after a while. Things are slower here and we like it just fine.

 

[Muse]

An interesting guy I know predicts that Detroit will be the next mecca for artistic growth. Obviously, the low rents will attract low income artistic types.

I have lived alone a long time, lived a long time with lots of roommates before that and alone a long time before that.

There are advantages to both, big advantages. I don't have a preference, absolutely not. If you have roommates it helps immensely if you like them, if you get along, if you feel they have a lot to offer as people, or at the very least if they are live and let live people.

 

[glenn1]

New York Times Business Day: Afford...c.) but after that pretty much begin to suck.

 

[Blackjack200]

An interesting guy I know predicts that Detroit will be the next mecca for artistic growth. Obviously, the low rents will attract low income artistic types.

I have lived alone a long time, lived a long time with lots of roommates before that and alone a long time before that.

There are advantages to both, big advantages. I don't have a preference, absolutely not. If you have roommates it helps immensely if you like them, if you get along, if you feel they have a lot to offer as people, or at the very least if they are live and let live people.

This is like the new popular contrarian view. Detroit is still losing population, 7,500 per year. http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140521/METRO08/305210136

Artists are not just going to suddenly move to Detroit because it has cheap housing. They need to attract them with restaurants and cafes, parks, lofts, shops, and enigmatically, other artists. Philadelphia's population stabilized 15 years ago, and has recently seen substantial growth in young adults. It still has major problems with crime, infrastructure, schools, etc. It also benefits from proximity to NYC and Washington DC. Detroit has none of that. Any kind of turnaround there is at least 20-25 years away, and I don't see what would spur it.

 

[Slew Foot]

so young adults are finally growing up? about damn time.

 

[mirageracerx]

im going to texas. tired of illinois and its shenanigans.

 

[Markbnj]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/04/b...rives-middle-class-to-cities-inland.html?_r=0





I've mentioned before that I'm really interested in how the American population copes with wages that have been stagnent for thirty or more years. I posted an article months ago about how more and more people were choosing to live with roomates so they could have extra money to spend on to other things.

I personally enjoy living with a roomate. I lived by myself for five years and ended up really lonely. I think it's an individual thing. I totally agree on the traffic, to me it's one of the worst downsides of where I live.

Yep, these are interesting trends. It's a dynamic time in that there are a lot of large factors in play at the same point that are driving changes to the way people live. The issue of stagnant wages contrasted with steady, near-mechanical appreciation in the cost of living (prices/taxes), the growth of the Internet as a must-have utility that is less-reliable in rural areas, the dramatic increase in the cost of driving (fuel/insurance).

 

[halik]

More like "unaffordable housing drives people away from NYC, SF, and similar cities." I personally do not see what anyone sees in NYC life worth spending a huge premium for, but that's just me. Cities are manageable at about 600-800k people (think Boston, Nashville, Charlotte, etc.) but after that pretty much begin to suck.

Moved from NYC to Chicago; my townhouse here would be worth several millions in manhattan.

 

[halik]

im going to texas. tired of illinois and its shenanigans.

Or you could vote
http://brucerauner.com/

 

[IndyColtsFan]

We moved from upper west side manhattan to Carmel indiana and wouldnt go back. After living in socal and east coast and traveling for 15 plus years just hanging out in carmel and going on more vacations is just fine with us. Rat race gets to folks after a while. Things are slower here and we like it just fine.

This.

I laugh when people who live in 300 sq ft apartments and are paying $1,500-$2,000/month for that "privilege" make fun of the Midwest. While they're likely scraping by in NYC or the Bay, I live like a king here and can travel as much as I want to see those places (and more!). I love the SF Bay area and used to go there on business, but there is no way in hell I'd move there. My house here would be a few million there.

Oh, and live with a roommate? HELL NO. When I was single, I lived alone and wouldn't have it any other way. But then again, I didn't live in an overpriced and expensive market either.

 

[vi edit]

im going to texas. tired of illinois and its shenanigans.

We moved out of IL this spring. Property taxes were horrible, state colleges were insanely expensive (UofI was like $25k a year for in state tuition), and living downstate there really isn't dickall to do. It's 2-3 hours to even get to a city that had more than 200k people. And that doesn't even go into the insanity that was our corrupt ass government.

It doesn't matter who you elect in IL. Democrat, republican, whatever. Crooks through and through.

 

[Blackjack200]

This.

I laugh when people who live in 300 sq ft apartments and are paying $1500-$2,000/month for that "privilege" make fun of the Midwest. While they're likely scraping by in NYC or the Bay, I live like a king here and can travel as much as I want to see those places (and more!). I love the SF Bay area and used to go there on business, but there is no way in hell I'd move there. My house here would be a few million there.

Oh, and live with a roommate? HELL NO. When I was single, I lived alone and wouldn't have it any other way. But then again, I didn't live in an overpriced and expensive market either.

What does it say that you are so much more interested in their living situation than they are of yours?

There are upsides and downsides to urban density. Lack of living space and higher prices are a couple of downsides that you alluded to. Here are some upsides:

- Higher wages and more job opportunities
- More restaurants, cafes, parks, rivers, professional sports teams, museums, libraries, bookstores, bars, clubs, and clothing shops.
- More diversity
- More artists, writers, and musicians
- Greater access to transit

Someone might only have 300 sq. feet, and they might have a roomate, but if they're spending any appreciable time in your apartment other than sleep time, they're doing it wrong.

There's nothing wrong with people that are more home/house oriented and want more space, and don't want to spend their outside time with a bunch of other people. But when I see people in suburban/exurban/rural areas mock city people, I wonder if they're really just trying to convince themselves of something.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

What does it say that you are so much more interested in their living situation than they are of yours?

You're confused. I couldn't possibly care less if those folks want to pay ridiculous amounts of money for "apartments" the size of a couple of my closets. I do laugh at them when they try to act superior, however.

There are upsides and downsides to urban density. Lack of living space and higher prices are a couple of downsides that you alluded to. Here are some upsides:

- Higher wages and more job opportunities

Indianapolis, for example, is fine in these respects.

- More restaurants, cafes, parks, rivers, professional sports teams, museums, libraries, bookstores, bars, clubs, and clothing shops.
- More diversity
- More artists, writers, and musicians

Not interested in points #2 or #3 to be honest and while Indy (for example) is "OK" on #1, I generally travel on awesome vacations to see culture I'm interested in. I'd still be doing that if I lived in NYC or SF too.

- Greater access to transit

This is really the main area smaller cities fall short in but again, I'll take that tradeoff.

Someone might only have 300 sq. feet, and they might have a roomate, but if they're spending any appreciable time in your apartment other than sleep time, they're doing it wrong.

Going out to eat every night and other things outside of the house adds up. Going out and partying every night might be fine if you're young, but it gets old when you are married and/or have a family.

There's nothing wrong with people that are more home/house oriented and want more space, and don't want to spend their outside time with a bunch of other people. But when I see people in suburban/exurban/rural areas mock city people, I wonder if they're really just trying to convince themselves of something.

I live outside a major city and I don't mock city people. I mock idiots who live in glorified closets who don a superiority complex and mock people in smaller cities or rural areas. That point was very clear in my post. AT has a few of those people and I just roll my eyes, laugh at them, and move on.

 

[DesiPower]

Isn't is juts logical? why live is shit holes like NY and LA when there are first world cities out there.

 

[Hugo Drax]

so young adults are finally growing up? about damn time.

Parents are retiring or cannot afford to provide them a monthly stipend. so now they have to move out of expensive cities.

 

[K1052]

I live outside a major city and I don't mock city people. I mock idiots who live in glorified closets who don a superiority complex and mock people in smaller cities or rural areas. That point was very clear in my post. AT has a few of those people and I just roll my eyes, laugh at them, and move on.

A LOT more of the reverse goes on around here. Basically if you don't want to live in suburbia or a rural environment you're automatically an asshole who thinks they are better than everyone else. I try to stay out of those arguments as much as possible but I can't pretend it doesn't happen pretty often.


The reality is that different people want different things and it should be left at that.

 

[mikeford]

People flee urban tyranny when they can, seems like more people can, so they do.

I like NYC, London, SF, etc but to visit and even then I often stay outside of the main area and take the subway in.

 

[vi edit]

I actually went "reverse" I used to live rural. It was 15 miles to the closest Walmart. I lived on just short of 2 acres of land, had a well and septic system, room to myself, ect.

But we did nothing but drive, drive, and drive some more. Drove in to town for work. Then had to come home and get our daughter from school. If we wanted to do any sort of athletic programs then we'd have to turn right back around and drive back in. My wife worked on one end of town and I was on the other and couldn't carpool. Some weekends if we wanted to do anything with the kids in the morning we'd have to drive into town in the morning for things like swim lessons and then drive back after it was over. Then if we wanted to go out to eat it was back into town again. Some weekends we were putting almost 100 miles a day on cars just driving back and forth. It just got old, fast.

So we moved to a different state and a much more condensed population. We're in a city of 400k people and now we can car pool, nearly everything we'd need on any given day is right on the way to/home from work and we can carpool. Round trip is about 12 miles. We picked up a hybrid car and used 10 gallons of gas the whole month. We'd do that in a week back in our last place.

I've still got a nice sized back yard, it's quiet, and the neighborhood pool is a 5 minute walk away. So much nicer than our last situation.

 

[glenn1]

People flee urban tyranny when they can, seems like more people can, so they do.

I like NYC, London, SF, etc but to visit and even then I often stay outside of the main area and take the subway in.

SF isn't even that nice compared to Monterey, although neither is particularly cheap.

 

[evident]

I dont think suburbia is too bad, although I've lived in one all my life, and the particular burb i live in has a nice little downtown with a main road i can walk with bars and restaurants and overpriced boutiques to window shop in.

 

[Blackjack200]

I'm as guilty as anyone else in this thread, but the conversation seems to have shifted to rural vs. urban from the subject of the article which was people moving from expensive coastal cities to cheaper inland cities.

I'll say that I have thought it would be really nice to move to a cheaper coastal city. Like Charleston, or NOLA or something. The only thing really keeping me from doing it is my job and the fact that I don't want to move that far from my family. I don't like the idea of living inland though.

 

[clamum]

Makes sense to me.

And I'm with IndyColtsFan. But I guess I just don't care about all the supposed upsides to a huge city. I live in Ann Arbor, MI (and grew up and lived in Esky, MI in the U.P.) and it has more to offer than I'll ever use or even care about. I love the Midwest and Great Lakes, and don't have any plans to move.

 

[K1052]

I'm as guilty as anyone else in this thread, but the conversation seems to have shifted to rural vs. urban from the subject of the article which was people moving from expensive coastal cities to cheaper inland cities.

I'll say that I have thought it would be really nice to move to a cheaper coastal city. Like Charleston, or NOLA or something. The only thing really keeping me from doing it is my job and the fact that I don't want to move that far from my family. I don't like the idea of living inland though.

The article has one guy who's moving out of Austin to Oklahoma City, so it isn't just the coastals. A lot of the better inland cities aren't "cheap" except in comparison to SF/LA/NYC/Seattle etc. The costals are still growing but limited housing supply, speculation, wealth sheltering, and difficulties building more are pushing middle class people out of the cores or the metro entirely.

 

[Vdubchaos]

I would rather live in a forest barefoot and hunt for food/farm.....then live in a city.

Not joking