New Zen microarchitecture details

[raghu78]

Are you sure its not 32 PCIe and quadchannel per socket?

And the fabled server APU was nothing but vague slides 2 years ago.

32 cores / 64 threads, 8 memory channels, 128 PCI-E lanes per socket.

http://techreport.com/news/29709/some-zen-cpus-may-pack-32-cores-and-eight-memory-channels
http://www.fudzilla.com/news/processors/40888-amd-naples-zen-has-32-cores

About the server APU the speculated specifications are 16c / 32t , with a Vega GPU and HBM2

http://www.bitsandchips.it/9-hardware/5858-amd-exascale-heterogeneous-processor
http://fudzilla.com/news/processors/38402-amd-s-coherent-data-fabric-enables-100-gb-s

 

[Phynaz]

ZEN APUs on the other hand will be the OEM dreams come true and im expecting those to be heavily OEM used in Laptops and Desktops.

I'm wondering why you think Zen APU's will be an OEM dream come true? What do they provide that current solutions don't, that would increase sales?

 

[Sven_eng]

I'm wondering why you think Zen APU's will be an OEM dream come true? What do they provide that current solutions don't, that would increase sales?

A fast, low-power CPU? A better way to understand it is to ask why an OEM would take an Intel APU with the same CPU performance yet not even half the graphics performance.

 

[crashtech]

A fast, low-power CPU? A better way to understand it is to ask why an OEM would take an Intel APU with the same CPU performance yet not even half the graphics performance.

Let's say similar CPU performance as not to arouse controversy. This generation of APUs might be the one to solve the bandwidth and TDP limitations that have prevented them from realizing their potential.

 

[Tup3x]

Wow i didn't know intel was introducing Hyper threaded Pentiums with kaby Lake. Wouldn't this lower the sales of i3? Why buy an i3 when $64 Pentium makes much better value for money and allows the person to buy a faster gpu. Pentium G4560 + Gtx 1050 is good cheap combination.

If you don't care about AVX then yeah.

 

[AtenRa]

I'm wondering why you think Zen APU's will be an OEM dream come true? What do they provide that current solutions don't, that would increase sales?

ZEN APUs will have Intel like CPU performance at the same or lower power with higher than IRIS Pro iGPU performance with integrated PCH (no need for motherboard Chipset) resulting in lower APU/BOM cost for the laptop.
Add AMD only features like FreeSync, ReLive, DX-12/Vulkan Async Compute, CrossFire etc and ZEN APUs are the only ones to combine all those in to a single x86 SOC.

 

[imported_jjj]

That is wrong. Ryzen has 24 PCIe 3.0 lanes. 4 are used for the chipset, that leaves 20. 4 can be used for SATA or NVMe, and 16 (or 8/8) for GPUs.

The reports claiming 32 are in larger number and from more credible sites. If half of that is provided by the X370 ,i guess that's a possibility.
Edit: guess it could be that 32 is total CPU plus chipset and that wouldn't be great but would reinforce the idea that it's a "mainstream" platform .

@ bjt2
The issues are bandwidth, latency, power, area ,packaging costs. The upsides are dev costs, yields, flexibility.
Sure advanced packing if getting there and i am all for CPU and GPU slices with advanced packaging but have they really reached a point where such a solution is the best , for the customer? Or would it be more about AMDs costs for now? In consumer to go with CPU+GPU+memory instead of APU+memory would make sense as the market is cost sensitive but not sure the solutions available today can sufficiently offset the drawbacks in server to make it the best possible solution for the customer, we'll see.

 

[itsmydamnation]

Are you sure its not 32 PCIe and quadchannel per socket?

And the fabled server APU was nothing but vague slides 2 years ago.

Yes, the CERN slides said 8 channel. Also explain what 4000pins are doing then? I know your looking for any reason to put down Zen, but do you really think AMD are silly enough to put 32SMT cores with only 4 DDR channels? Intel are going with 6 for 32 core Haswell EP.

 

[Phynaz]

ZEN APUs will have Intel like CPU performance at the same or lower power with higher than IRIS Pro iGPU performance with integrated PCH (no need for motherboard Chipset) resulting in lower APU/BOM cost for the laptop.
Add AMD only features like FreeSync, ReLive, DX-12/Vulkan Async Compute, CrossFire etc and ZEN APUs are the only ones to combine all those in to a single x86 SOC.

You mostly gave a feature list, not reasons why they are dream come true for OEMs.

You are speaking in absolutes, are you sure that "ZEN APUs will have Intel like CPU performance at the same or lower power with higher than IRIS Pro iGPU performance"? I'm curious how you think IRIS Pro performance is going to happen with system memory bandwidth limitations, or do you think APU's will have dedicated HBM2?

And the question is "so what?". AMD has had greater than Intel IGP performance since about forever. Where has it gotten them? IRIS Pro isn't selling well either in case you haven't noticed.

 

[crashtech]

And the question is "so what?". AMD has had greater than Intel IGP performance since about forever. Where has it gotten them?

AMD has been way, way behind in CPU performance, but it looks like that will no longer be the case. Couple that with a more efficient process and the ability to utilize HBM cache and suddenly it's not hard to imagine a competitive APU.

 

[realibrad]

You mostly gave a feature list, not reasons why they are dream come true for OEMs.

Are you sure that "ZEN APUs will have Intel like CPU performance at the same or lower power with higher than IRIS Pro iGPU performance"?

And the question is "so what?". AMD has had greater than Intel IGP performance since about forever. Where has it gotten them?

Um... are you joking.

AMD APUs have had one major weakness and its cpu perf. Their GPUs have blown away Intel's but the cpu side has greatly limited what they can do. The other issue was that their CPU side used far more power. So, if Zen does indeed come close to the 6900k in terms of ipc while using less power, then the Zen in an APU would be a great hit in laptops.

Are you trying to argue that Iris might match vega on the apu?

 

[raghu78]

ZEN APUs will have Intel like CPU performance at the same or lower power with higher than IRIS Pro iGPU performance with integrated PCH (no need for motherboard Chipset) resulting in lower APU/BOM cost for the laptop. Add AMD only features like FreeSync, ReLive, DX-12/Vulkan Async Compute, CrossFire etc and ZEN APUs are the only ones to combine all those in to a single x86 SOC.

well said. I am waiting for AMD's Raven Ridge APU to sport some High bandwidth cache. AMD highlighted the High bandwidth cache controller in the Vega architecture. I can now see why they did that. AMD could go with a 2/4 Hi stack running at 1 Gbps to provide 2/4 GB capacity and 128 GB/s bandwidth. A 1024 sp Vega GPU with 128 GB/s will effectively provide the performance of a 130-150 sq mm discrete GPU. Now thats a perfect chip for thin and light gaming notebooks. It will have much better battery life than a CPU and dGPU combination which provides similar performance.

 

[TheELF]

AMD has been way, way behind in CPU performance, but it looks like that will no longer be the case. Couple that with a more efficient process and the ability to utilize HBM cache and suddenly it's not hard to imagine a competitive APU.

Well if AMD pulls of the wonder and get's cpu parity then a 4 core zen APU is going to be massively bottlenecked by it's graphics...
(and no,people are over crossfire,it's just way too messy)
Add to that the competitive pricing making it pretty expensive and you are back to square one,a product that has the best features for it's price point but will only be interesting for a very small group of people because for any one else it goes against their instincts to buy something that is bottlenecked by design.

 

[crashtech]

Well if AMD pulls of the wonder and get's cpu parity then a 4 core zen APU is going to be massively bottlenecked by it's graphics...
(and no,people are over crossfire,it's just way too messy)
Add to that the competitive pricing making it pretty expensive and you are back to square one,a product that has the best features for it's price point but will only be interesting for a very small group of people because for any one else it goes against their instincts to buy something that is bottlenecked by design.

What is the basis for your assertion that there will be a graphics bottleneck? The memory bandwidth issue may be solved with HBM.

 

[TheELF]

What is the basis for your assertion that there will be a graphics bottleneck? The memory bandwidth issue may be solved with HBM.

So what level of GPU performance are we talking about in the ZEN apu?
over rx-480 over gtx970? Where does an i5 start to become the bottleneck?
If zen quad is as good as an current i5 it will need one heck of a gpu to not be bottlenecked.

 

[crashtech]

So what level of GPU performance are we talking about in the ZEN apu?
over rx-480 over gtx970? Where does an i5 start to become the bottleneck?
If zen quad is as good as an current i5 it will need one heck of a gpu to not be bottlenecked.

Oh, I am thinking more about laptops, as far as desktops go, we will still likely be looking at SFF being a good fit for APUs. The day where APUs can replace dGPUs has not quite arrived, but a successful APU will pressure Intel to include Iris Pro and eDRAM in more of its CPUs.

 

[Phynaz]

Um... are you joking.

Maybe you are?

Why you are mentioning a 6900K in a conversation about APUs/IGPs is beyond me.

 

[realibrad]

Maybe you are?

Why you are mentioning a 6900K in a conversation about APUs/IGPs is beyond me.

Because Zen was compared to a 6900k with pretty similar clocks which should give a rough estimate about ipc for the CPU. That mixed with the context that the thing mainly holding back AMDs APUs is the cpu side, then it should make perfect sense.

If this is still beyond you, then I am unsure what else to say. Are you confused because a 6900k is not an apu?

 

[zinfamous]

Maybe you are?

Why you are mentioning a 6900K in a conversation about APUs/IGPs is beyond me.

the 6900k comparison is the only current tangible data that anyone has to go by. So you have to consider 4c performance in a potential APU based on that 8c part. ...eh, what realibrad said.

 

[AtenRa]

You mostly gave a feature list, not reasons why they are dream come true for OEMs.

You are speaking in absolutes, are you sure that "ZEN APUs will have Intel like CPU performance at the same or lower power with higher than IRIS Pro iGPU performance"? I'm curious how you think IRIS Pro performance is going to happen with system memory bandwidth limitations, or do you think APU's will have dedicated HBM2?

And the question is "so what?". AMD has had greater than Intel IGP performance since about forever. Where has it gotten them? IRIS Pro isn't selling well either in case you haven't noticed.

1. ZEN CPU performance will be close to Intel if we take ZEN vs Broadwell-E demo. Since 14nm LPP has higher perf/watt at lower TDPs, im expecting close to similar performance at the 15W TDP SKUs.
2. Vega iGPU will need lower bandwidth than current Kaveri APUs by having larger L2 cache, Delta Color Compression, Memory compression, Primitive Discard Acceleration, Primitive Shaders , new rasterizers and ROPs connected to L2 Cache. Also at the time of release (H2 2017) ZEN APUs may be able to use DDR-4 3200MHz SO-DIMMs which are available today. All those will make the iGPU more than 50% faster than current generation.
3. Integrated PCH will make the Laptop BOM significantly decrease by a) not use a chipset, b) having a less complicated Laptop motherboard due to absence of the Chipset and/or dGPU. It will also decrease power consumption and give the advantage of creating thinner Laptop chassis and use smaller batteries, decreasing the BOM even further vs Intel competition.
4. Added features like Freesync, CF, ReLive, DX-12/Vulakn gaming performance etc etc = added value.
5. HBM2 APU availability in 2018 for mainstream market. We may see a HBM2 ZEN APU for the mainstream market by late 2018 as HBM2 will be mature and used by both AMD and NV in desktop/Laptop dGPUs.

The alternative will be an Intel CPU with an NVIDIA dGPU that will be bulkier, consume more power, have lower battery time and cost more.

Simple put it, everyone would want an AMD APU in their laptops in H2 2017/H1 2018 and beyond and OEMs will be more than happy to jump in and sell all they can. Ohh and with a 4W TDP ZEN SoCs we may have a come back at 11.5" and larger x86 Tablet/2in1 Hybrids.

 

[nathanddrews]

Vega iGPU? Is Ryzen's IGP Vega-based? I hadn't heard that...

 

[lolfail9001]

2. Vega iGPU will need lower bandwidth than current Kaveri APUs by having larger L2 cache, Delta Color Compression, Memory compression, Primitive Discard Acceleration, Primitive Shaders , new rasterizers and ROPs connected to L2 Cache. Also at the time of release (H2 2017) ZEN APUs may be able to use DDR-4 3200MHz SO-DIMMs which are available today. All those will make the iGPU more than 50% faster than current generation.

More than 50% faster than current generation only makes it about as fast as 940MX, rebranded low end first gen Maxwell card. That's hardly an achievement making an APU a compelling device for anything but accelerated video. And i would know, i have Bobcat netbook.

HBM2 APU availability in 2018 for mainstream market.

I am betting my void signature you will not see HBM2 APU for mainstream market (read: a laptop or desktop SKU) until at least 2019, if ever. Are you willing to bet your own?

 

[tential]

how can you guys say any of this without knowing the power consumption...

I don't care about igpu perf I just need good enough. So if intels solution is lower power consumption than AMD then I'm happy. So we need the full picture.

You can't just state as a matter of fact that AMD will have same perf as intel, more GPU perf than intel and lower power consumption.....

Seriously?

 

[realibrad]

how can you guys say any of this without knowing the power consumption...

I don't care about igpu perf I just need good enough. So if intels solution is lower power consumption than AMD then I'm happy. So we need the full picture.

You can't just state as a matter of fact that AMD will have same perf as intel, more GPU perf than intel and lower power consumption.....

Seriously?

Unless AMD lied about its power then we do have an idea. If Ryzen is about equal to the 6900k and used less power, then scaling down cores would likely be the same when Intel does it. We don't know for sure but it's how all other chips have worked before.

So a 4 core Ryzen APU should be faster by all reasonable estimations.

 

[CHADBOGA]

Unless AMD lied about its power then we do have an idea. If Ryzen is about equal to the 6900k and used less power, then scaling down cores would likely be the same when Intel does it. We don't know for sure but it's how all other chips have worked before.

So a 4 core Ryzen APU should be faster by all reasonable estimations.

Intel uses a mobile designed CPU for mainstream desktop & laptop, not their server design that is offered for HEDT.

Ryzen is AMD's server designed CPU, unless they too have done a mobile specific design, it is very unlikely it will match Intel in laptops.