New Zen microarchitecture details

[inf64]

Assuming it's 8c/8t instead of 6c/12t it will look like this:

8c/16t vs. i7 HEDT
8c/8t vs. i7 4c/8t
4c/8t vs. i5 4c/4t
4c/4t vs. i3 2c/4t

According to Canard PC Ryzen was also produced in a 4c/4t variant.

Are you using the ranges with regards of the price or performance? I'm asking because 8C/8T Ryzen will just destroy i7 4C/8T in MT workloads, no matter the super high clock on 8T KL parts. Similar , but to a lesser extent, goes for 4C/8T Ryzen Vs i5 KL etc.

 

[coercitiv]

Are you using the ranges with regards of the price or performance? I'm asking because 8C/8T Ryzen will just destroy i7 4C/8T in MT workloads, no matter the super high clock on 8T KL parts. Similar , but to a lesser extent, goes for 4C/8T Ryzen Vs i5 KL etc.

Both price and performance, but in the sense that AMD will offer more (throughput) performance for the same price tier. The 8c/8t Zen will not "destroy" i7 4c/8t, but rather match it at 6-7 threads and beat it at 7+ heavy threads. Expect a lot of controversy on this subject, with each side emphasizing preferred load scenario.

The same applies for 4c/8t vs. i5, with the exception that this time Zen will have less of an ST performance disadvantage (higher clocks), but increasing thread count won't bring those hefty benefits either. Can't wait to see the fight!

 

[inf64]

Both price and performance, but in the sense that AMD will offer more (throughput) performance for the same price tier. The 8c/8t Zen will not "destroy" i7 4c/8t, but rather match it at 6-7 threads and beat it at 7+ heavy threads. Expect a lot of controversy on this subject, with each side emphasizing preferred load scenario.

Nobody sane will be running stock 8C/8T Ryzens. People will push it to the max it can go, which is reportedly 4.2-4.3Ghz. At that clock KL 8T is a goner Vs Ryzen's 8 real cores, sorry. Ryzen is no bulldozer , remember that.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Assuming it's 8c/8t instead of 6c/12t it will look like this:

8c/16t vs. i7 HEDT

I don't see it. AMD stands to gain more from challenging Intel's higher-volume mainstream socket. HEDT may as well not exist since it is priced outside of the budget of most buyers anyway, and the volumes are so low. Intel probably wouldn't bother were it not for the Xeon line that currently feeds their HEDT platform. Things change a bit with LGA2066, mind you.

AMD CAN afford to charge a bit more than the Intel mainstream - I would count on it. But they will be targeting the 7700k, not the 6950x or 6900k (despite the fact that they use the 6900k in comparative benchmarks, that's just showmanship).

To summarize, AMD's best strategy is to double up core counts and hit Intel that way.

 

[swilli89]

I don't see it. AMD stands to gain more from challenging Intel's higher-volume mainstream socket. HEDT may as well not exist since it is priced outside of the budget of most buyers anyway, and the volumes are so low. Intel probably wouldn't bother were it not for the Xeon line that currently feeds their HEDT platform. Things change a bit with LGA2066, mind you.

AMD CAN afford to charge a bit more than the Intel mainstream - I would count on it. But they will be targeting the 7700k, not the 6950x or 6900k (despite the fact that they use the 6900k in comparative benchmarks, that's just showmanship).

To summarize, AMD's best strategy is to double up core counts and hit Intel that way.

Eh no that's squarely where they are aiming with their top Ryzen product as its been stated many times by them. Don't worry yourself so much over AMD's marketing plan, the products should sell themselves.

 

[coercitiv]

Nobody sane will be running stock 8C/8T Ryzens. People will push it to the max it can go, which is reportedly 4.2-4.3Ghz. At that clock KL 8T is a goner Vs Ryzen's 8 real cores, sorry. Ryzen is no bulldozer , remember that.

That still leaves KL with a ~15% frequency advantage. Add SMT and an IPC advantage and you'll see them tie at 6 threads in terms of throughput. The nice part is by the time you reach 7-8 threads in games, Zen may actually offer better ST performance for a game's main thread. Lots of potential here.

AMD stands to gain more from challenging Intel's higher-volume mainstream socket. HEDT may as well not exist since it is priced outside of the budget of most buyers anyway, and the volumes are so low.

How much are the GTX 1070 and 1080 selling for right now? And you think there ain't enough people willing to spend $400-$600 for a product that will likely last for 2-3x times longer in their system?

 

[Thunder 57]

Nobody sane will be running stock 8C/8T Ryzens. People will push it to the max it can go, which is reportedly 4.2-4.3Ghz. At that clock KL 8T is a goner Vs Ryzen's 8 real cores, sorry. Ryzen is no bulldozer , remember that.

Believe it or not most people are not overclockers. Even the ones buying the high stupidly high end stuff at times. If anything, they will have someone do it for them, or just not even care.

 

[LTC8K6]

Nobody sane will be running stock 8C/8T Ryzens. People will push it to the max it can go, which is reportedly 4.2-4.3Ghz. At that clock KL 8T is a goner Vs Ryzen's 8 real cores, sorry. Ryzen is no bulldozer , remember that.

If they have 8c RyZen that can do 4.2 with all 8 cores, and handily defeat KL, they should have released some chips a while ago and made some money...because KL has been a disappointment and if AMD had released RyZen a month ago, I think they'd have sold a hell of a lot of them by now.

 

[Rifter]

If they have 8c RyZen that can do 4.2 with all 8 cores, and handily defeat KL, they should have released some chips a while ago and made some money...because KL has been a disappointment and if AMD had released RyZen a month ago, I think they'd have sold a hell of a lot of them by now.

They obviously lack supply for a launch or they would have. Id rather have product available vs a paper launch.

 

[krumme]

The beef of gfx is where the 970 sat. At aprox 280-300 usd and then the major revenue is below to 150 usd. Excactly as the core line. Now you will sell something at say 500 but if you dont adress and win the 200 to 300 usd cpu market amd is not selling 4M 8c a month. And 8c is what they have for all we know crazy as it is. Server might take it but imo thats a slower uptake and shift than even consumer market.
If you cant buy a base 8c model for 300 q2 sure you can q3.
Besides i think you guys undervalue the benefit of st perf not to say Intel brand value and general sales strenght.

 

[LTC8K6]

They obviously lack supply for a launch or they would have. Id rather have product available vs a paper launch.

I was actually just saying I don't necessarily believe those clocks. I do think that if they are true, then AMD has just about missed the boat.

Will there be any real performance gains for manually overclocking Zen, since it auto-overclocks the best it can with the voltage and cooling it has available?

 

[krumme]

Nobody sane will be running stock 8C/8T Ryzens. People will push it to the max it can go, which is reportedly 4.2-4.3Ghz. At that clock KL 8T is a goner Vs Ryzen's 8 real cores, sorry. Ryzen is no bulldozer , remember that.

Then the sane is 10%
People buy a solution to a need. They get a computer that happens to have a cpu.
It say Intel Inside because they are the biggest.
Try a tour in retail and lisnt to the sales process. Its not excactly exchange of rocket science information.

 

[krumme]

I was actually just saying I don't necessarily believe those clocks. I do think that if they are true, then AMD has just about missed the boat.

Will there be any real performance gains for manually overclocking Zen, since it auto-overclocks the best it can with the voltage and cooling it has available?

I imagine its similar to the gpu?
You give the power plus 50% ser temp target high and then slide freq until you cant play bf1
I think for mt perf its very much tdp constrained amd with 95w 8c imo there isbplenty to go for. Hey i would take it 150% if i could. No probs. Is nothing vs a oc gfx. And if it gives 8c at 4.5 at 170w what is not to like.

 

[krumme]

Eh no that's squarely where they are aiming with their top Ryzen product as its been stated many times by them. Don't worry yourself so much over AMD's marketing plan, the products should sell themselves.

Like phenom and bd sold themselves?
K6 k7 and k8 sold because they offered far superior perf for dollar vs the compettition. K6 was even a generation or two behind p2. Phenom and bd didnt give that benefit. It was product at fairytale prices and they got hammered in reviews. For that they were punished.
Both could easily have gotten a better reception and kept a higher price during their lifetime and been more profitable. Phenom should just have launched with minus 20%. Bd should have been labelled a 4 core and had similar reduction. Instead it was this pathetic whining about wrong bm and prices that gave both product a very bad start they could not recover from.

Nobody considered a phenom or bd after launch even when prices fell. It was a lost cause.

 

[Agent-47]

20k wafers a month - a third of gf capacity - at 200 working 8c dies a wafer gives 4M 8c zen a month.

Or aprox 50M a year or the equivalent of what they ofloaded of zakate/bobcat.

Thats an high sales number for a midrange/ highend part. At a mean sale price of 200 usd (be it server or desktop) It would generate a revenue of 10.000M the next year or 10B. Thats aprox double their total yearly revenue for their entire business including the consoles.

It goes to show how important it is for their business to move those dies.

I think they maybe able to produce more than 50M.
https://youtu.be/zyYiDfws9tY

Also I read somewhere, can't remember where now, that AMD has reached out to Samsung to produce more.

They certainly seem confident. I just hope they don't pull a Bulldozer .

 

[lopri]

AMD can have a halo SKU for $1K+. Heck maybe it is desirable to have such an SKU. What matters most are the products at $200/$300 price points.

 

[jpiniero]

Also I read somewhere, can't remember where now, that AMD has reached out to Samsung to produce more.

I think they went to Samsung for quality reasons more than needing volume.

 

[Agent-47]

4C/4T $100-150, since AMD is already selling 2M/4T Athlons below $100, and there is a Bristol Ridge (Excavator) AM4 Athlon 950...
4C/8T $200 puts it squarely against mid-range i5's
8C/8T or 6C12T $250'ish competing with the 7600K
8C/16T $350 with $500 for the top-end halo SKU

I would expect the segmentation to be
SR3 4c4t---i3 compitators (probably overwelhming i3, the value market)
SR3 BE 4C8T----i5 compitators
SR5 6C6T --- direct compitator to 7700k(probably overwelhming i7 4c8t with added physical cores, the upper high end market)
SR5 BE 6C12T
SR7 8C8T--- direct compitator to 6800k or SKX equivalent
SR7 8C16T--- slightly below 6900k, undercutting by 30 to 40 pc at most for 10 pc less throughput

otherwise a 8c16t@3.4ghz at $350 and 8c16t@maybe 3.8 at $500 will canabilize the sale of the more expensive CPU. Personally I won't be willing to pay 150 dollar primium for 300-400 mhz, considering both are unlocked.

 

[iBoMbY]

I think it is possible they produced a larger batch of E4 wafers before they figured out this rumored SMT bug. This is why they are going to sell the E4 (A0) revision as 8c/8t and 4c/4t, and the F3 or F4 (B0, or whatever) revision as 4c/8t or 8c/16t.

 

[Agent-47]

I think it is possible they produced a larger batch of E4 wafers before they figured out this rumored SMT bug. This is why they are going to sell the E4 (A0) revision as 8c/8t and 4c/4t, and the F3 or F4 (B0, or whatever) revision as 4c/8t or 8c/16t.

But the A0 was the CPC chip which has the IPC-inhibiting bugs relating to the micro-ops cache. Or am I mistaken?

 

[StinkyPinky]

Disappointing if there's no 6 core cpu. That's a big jump from 4 to 8. 6 core would be a sweet spot for many of us looking for more cores but not lowering the clocks too much.

 

[Bouowmx]

Sorry for interrupting the discussion

What is currently known about Raven Ridge? It has maximum 4-core Zen CPU, but the Internet is saying different things about the GPU.

 

[Tuna-Fish]

But the A0 was the CPC chip which has the IPC-inhibiting bugs relating to the micro-ops cache. Or am I mistaken?

The bug is that when there are two threads running on the cpu, and the uop cache is used, sometimes (very rarely, but does happen, it's rare enough that you can run benchmarks with the chips and not have it happen on every run) a thread gets delivered instructions from the memory map of the other thread.

There are two ways to mitigate this: Turn off uop cache, so you lose some IPC, OR turn off the second thread per chip, so you can use the uop cache and don't lose ipc but you do lose the second thread. If they have actually made a lot of them, I can see them shipping all those as 4/4s or 8/8s.

 

[Ajay]

Did AMD fix that bug? That would doom a Ryzen server farm - so the uop cache would need to be turned off indefinitely.
8/8 etc. would be a good fix for consumers.

 

[PPB]

I dont know the bickering about 6c12t, it is actually less throughput than same clocked 8c8t at 25% smt yield (7.5 vs 8) in super parallel workloads.

Clocks? I think that with 14lpp, the diference in clocking between 8c and 6c would be minimal at best.

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