Atari2600
Golden Member
- Nov 22, 2016
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Yes they are. IC design is 2x or more (~3x in your article). Per transistor cost is higher.
But that is not what you said.
You were specifically talking about production.
Yes they are. IC design is 2x or more (~3x in your article). Per transistor cost is higher.
No, your first post about it didn't include today in relation to the FX4350
Those are only DIY volume from Newegg, its not surprising that enthusiasts will want 6Core High-End Desktop CPUs. Its why 6700K was selling 4x more than second Core i5 CPU in that list.
But that is not what you said.
You were specifically talking about production.
really ?? RYZEN is launching next 4-8 weeks, do i have to include TODAY in every sentence ??? you are searching for straws
And how is it different? IC design is part of production cost so is transistor cost.
under which accounting standard?And how is it different? IC design is part of production cost so is transistor cost.
Because design is amortised over the production run.
We've no idea what the production run is going to be right now in either rate or longevity.
The apples-to-apples comparison is the cost of making dies from wafers --- which is no doubt what you intended given the way you wrote the sentence I quoted --- and now your desperately backtracking.
Unfortunately, I've come to expect little else except FUD in your posts.
So now you add today
If the 4C/8T Ryzen had an IGP it would be different. But lets be honest, a lot less desktops and a lot less graphics cards are sold now. And Ryzen better outsell FX4350 today. Even a 64$ Pentium wipes the FX line and it comes with an IGP too.
Yes and the world is quite different today. Feel free to link something else if you think its wrong.
wut? I think these 2 points contradict each other, assuming I get what you are saying:
--Few people really need the IGP on these chips because this market is almost always buying a dGPU. the IGP is wasted space
--PC gaming desktops AND GPU sales for mid to high end is actually up significantly over the last year, so this is a weird statement.
You ran out of arguments that quick?
What is the 28nm and 14FF wafer cost
and what is the yield numbers for FX CPUs and Ryzen CPUs?
This isn't an "argument", its a one sided correction of inaccurate rubbish.
I've already supplied estimates. Read over the posts again.
There was some data on expected flaw rates kicking around, obviously exact figures won't be in the public domain. I can't remember the expected numbers off the top of my head. But given 14nm has been around for a while now, any reasonable expectations are that it will be pretty good, indeed the respins to correct bugs should further improve this as they can stamp out production issues with each update.
Only your single point of data is right?
So did I. But you didn't like it.
So you just make a guess. May I point you to the first quote in this post?
Unless you can provide sources for flaw rates that would mean Ryzen costs 2x XV?
Fottemberg have said that cost of Zen die is between 18 and 20$.ZEN dies at 200mm2 TODAY could be close to 1.8x more expensive than 300mm2 Bulldozer dies at 28nm BUT,
If cheapest ZEN die price is $199, then its 2.5x times higher than cheapest Bulldozer FX4350 at $80.
4C 8T ZEN at $199 will outsell Bulldozer 2M 4T FX4350 by more than 2x
Add higher profit per die and you still make more money than selling Bulldozer dies at $80
Fottemberg have said that cost of Zen die is between 18 and 20$.
And they will sell them for more than 100$.
$20 /die x 200 dies/wafer = $4000 /wafer
Which sounds ballpark.
First you should make sure that Steam doesn't count 8C and 6C FX models as 4 and 3 cores, as many versions and SPs of Windows show them like being half the physical cores, but with 2x that as logical cores. The difference between 6C/8C in Windows systems (1.8%) and Linux systems (5.5%) might be a hint. Also the Newegg CPU charts show, that still some 8C FX are being sold. With 5 years old and older CPUs still populating the Steam and other HW surveys (Mozilla, Unity), the picture of the current situation and demand might be softened quite a bit.You cant as Intel either. A reality check for people, look at steam. There isn't even half a million 8 core CPUs after several years with 8 core CPU offerings. FX8xxx, FX9xxx, X series HEDT etc.
Even if you include 6 cores, then you are at 2½-3 million combined 6 and 8 cores installed over the last 5-6 years or so.
Its a very tiny market to begin with that wouldn't exist without servers.
The numbers given by you don't include the 32SHP process (with HKMG), which uses SOI wafers. If we'd know the actual costs for them instead of some cheap foundry 28nm bulk process (how many layers? HKMG?), we might do the calc. At ~57% the 8C PD's die size, the cost disadvantage per wafer will be alleviated a bit. And why do we compare these 2 or 3 processes anyway, if the older ones are out of question for a current gen product? Intel doesn't sell 32nm or 28nm BDW-E, to my knowledge.Yes they are. IC design is 2x or more (~3x in your article). Per transistor cost is higher.
The L3 in Zen is about 15 sqmm per CCX.Depends if you compare a 2M Excavator to a 4C zen part. if that is the case, it can easily be larger.
there is L3 in zen which can increase the die by 60-80% easily, although increased L3 size will probably be countered by a lack of iGPU.
another thing to consider is that 28nm has been around for "ages" and most definitely enjoying peak yields. 14nm. Compared to 28 nm, 14 nm is still in its infancy and can be argued that it will not have as high a yield. Time will however negate this factor.
I'm not so certain about that.
I see a lot of potential for the 8C/16T in Workstations and the small server market will love it. Depending on how great XFR works, it could also be an interesting alternative for pre-build gaming rigs (ex Alienware).
Let's hope we get enough CPUs to even build our own PCs ...
So even with 14LPP, but a ~25% smaller die, yields might be 70% vs. 80%.
Bulldozer die is 315mm2, 25% smaller is 236mm2. Do you believe the 8C ZEN die will be that large ??
Fottemberg have said that cost of Zen die is between 18 and 20$.
And they will sell them for more than 100$.
The L3 in Zen is about 15 sqmm per CCX.