New Zen microarchitecture details

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Dresdenboy

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2003
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citavia.blog.de
Help me here: were was ever staded max 95W TDP for Zen? Because everyone says that but I can't find the original source, it almost seems like a fixation...

95W sounds about right for 6-cores at high IPC and frequency but it's quite limited if you have 8-cores. Unless the turbo speeds are much higher than stock, then it could work but it would need decent cooling.

In regard to that... if wraith cooler is any indication 125W TDP is a more plausible estimation for the top Zen. Why design a new cooler and don't make it compatible with an incoming product?

Source is a slide leaked by Bitlife.info.
 

SAAA

Senior member
May 14, 2014
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Whoa calm there, it was to confirm

Anyway I'd like to point out... first it's dated march 2015, then it cites 2016 for Zen when we still have at best a single sample shown so really late 2016 at best for release, plus leaks pointing to reduction in initial clockspeed estimates.
It' quite a bit of factors that make a single target line, 95W, a bit... dated?
Maybe it's me but Wraith was released well after this slide so that too points at different power targets.
Or they just want to avoid any thermal issue and give a safe margin, it's all speculation on my part of course.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
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One can say that if overclocking brings 8c zen from 3.3 single core to all cores 3.8 at hsw ipc level at say 400 usd on a cheap mb most desktop users wouldnt care if tdp got to 160w. It would be a slam dunk imo.
 

MajinCry

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2015
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Naw, people are all over lower power. You see it in the AMD threads; the 390x is faster but uses more juice so get a gimped 970. The 380x is faster but uses more juice so get a 960.

'Course, that's GPUs, but the same applies to CPUs. AMD has to have good performance AND lower power, if they're gonna sway the diehards.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
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Well they can run it 95w tdp then. Something no 8c intel cpu can do but that doesnt mean all change to zen

But imo its different from gpu where you load the gpu max all the time. An 8c cpu will scale down to insignificant levels during desktop use and more or less the same low tdp for most gaming.
You dont stress both fpu and integer to max and only for rendering will consumers load the 8c fpu to the max.
There is plenty headroom for consumers.
Servers is another matter but here perf w is key anyway.
 

Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
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One can say that if overclocking brings 8c zen from 3.3 single core to all cores 3.8 at hsw ipc level at say 400 usd on a cheap mb most desktop users wouldnt care if tdp got to 160w. It would be a slam dunk imo.

That would be very nice indeed. I do think its a bit optimistic though.

Well they can run it 95w tdp then. Something no 8c intel cpu can do but that doesnt mean all change to zen

No, they're busy cramming 10 cores into a 55W TDP;

http://ark.intel.com/products/92978/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E5-2630L-v4-25M-Cache-1_80-GHz

I'm sorry. I couldn't resist... :biggrin:
 

Dresdenboy

Golden Member
Jul 28, 2003
1,730
554
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citavia.blog.de
A thought about the 8C Zeppelin die:


I reported about the "Zeppelin" CPU first, in combination with the 32C limit per socket. This and the Fudzilla slide led to assumptions that 32C would be 2 Zeppelins -> 16C/ZP assumed with 4 DDR channels per die.

SR die leaked and had 8C + 2x DDR4 PHY. Then Lisa held the "ZP" ES into the cameras. 8C SR called "ZP" -> cognitive dissonance.

Looking at the Fudzilla slide again I found the riddle's solution: The blue Zeppelin box are actually 2 boxes divided by an orange line, which stands for the data fabric. The same for the Greenland GPU. So that are 2 ZP dies! And 2 GPU dies (possibly some small Vega die with 1 HBM2 PHY).
 
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Phynaz

Lifer
Mar 13, 2006
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Naw, people are all over lower power. You see it in the AMD threads; the 390x is faster but uses more juice so get a gimped 970. The 380x is faster but uses more juice so get a 960.

'Course, that's GPUs, but the same applies to CPUs. AMD has to have good performance AND lower power, if they're gonna sway the enterprise buyers.

FTFY
 

KTE

Senior member
May 26, 2016
478
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All is in the second slide of Aten Ra s post, FTR dynamic power was measured at 0.880V, wich tell us that at this voltage everything is perfect, they wouldnt use value that would crush the metrics, wouldnt they..?..

Beside if it cant do 1V it would be a first in the industry, dont count on such irrationnal theories..
That's not IDS values there or TEV details

http://electroiq.com/chipworks_real_chips_blog/2014/12/18/iedm-monday-was-finfet-day/

You'll see many process metrics there... Intel has been releasing the best process metrics by far for many years. In fact, they are assumed to be nearly 1.5 nodes ahead of every competitor, such is their advantage. TSMCs 10nm will only be a little better than Intel's 14nm. Did you see 15% higher frequency, 2x lower power at 10% lower voltage? Did we see Intel get such huge power and frequency gains with 14nm finFET? http://download.intel.com/newsroom/kits/14nm/pdfs/Intel_14nm_New_uArch.pdf

No they didn't. It is heat/power limiting the chip frequencies and scaling.

Also, cells used, the chip layout/design and PVT factors are crucial... Process variations modeled by IBM for its 14nm SOI show Ion is strongly affected by Vt and Hfin variations:
http://userweb.eng.gla.ac.uk/xingsheng.wang/ppt/ESSDER2012_A4L-E_WANG_final.pdf

Powerpoint process metrics does not equal actual complex logic implementations. Nor are those graph readings as simplistic as some AnandTech bar chart.

Static DC curve tracing with a FET doesn't even account for the biggest problem three terminal devices face, self-heating. Nor well known electron mobility drop-offs typically described as traps. And that is precisely what the shrinks past 65nm have been targeting. The focus to multicore didn't arise because it's more powerful. No, it arose from research that suggested it was the best way to tackle power/thermal problems and continue scaling.

A process showing "100% lower power" on the curves you're looking at means little in actual chip implementations, other than how the performance of a similar transistor compares.

The achievement of finFET was to keep a level of high performance with low power but it also comes with a handicap. FinFETs are worse at dissipating heat than planar and you tend to accrue heat build up around the fins.

Oh, IBM POWER9 is using GF 14nm HP http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/07/open_power_summit_power9/

I wonder why they didn't use LPP?
It seems pretty clear what the Red Team+ member is saying. It seems to me that you are just attacking juanrga because you don't like him.
Not a quotable person, at all.
The limitation is in the transistor power dissipation, if shrinked 1.4x they will have 2x less area, so their perf/watt should be increased by 2x if you want to operate them at same frequency.

Intel s 14nm didnt improve much their perf/Watt compared to their 22nm, i once stated it ad nauseam but seems people are keeping using them as if they were the end of all, 14nm LPP work at lower voltage for the same frequency, so the individual transistors dissipation will be less in a square proportion of the voltage, that s physics laws and is not much subject to any debate set apart correcting absolute values of various parameters.
See above. That's also not how semiconductor physics works. You can see it explained thoroughly in the IBM paper.

Sent from HTC 10
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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I've seen 3.33 GHz predicted as the base clock for 8c/16t 95w TDP Summit Ridge with 4.0 GHz being the top turbo bin. So I'm going with that for now, seem plausible?

Sorry to repeat myself, but I agree 100% with AtenRa that Summit Ridge needs to beat XV in MT workloads on a core-per-core vs. module-per-module basis, or otherwise it'll be a disappointment. We could have had 4-8m XV last year if AMD had really wanted it. I would love to have gotten a chip like that in 2015.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
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Powerpoint process metrics does not equal actual complex logic implementations. Nor are those graph readings as simplistic as some AnandTech bar chart.

I wont waste my time, an ARM core certainly has a pipeline that is less frequency friendly that an Intel CPU, isnt it..



http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=38251747&postcount=1484

This was posted numerous times, in case you need more ground for estimations LVT/RVT are not the lowest Vth transistors within 14nm LPP, there s still the sLVT wich should leak more but switch faster.

The numbers for LVT :

http://semiaccurate.com/forums/showpost.php?p=250960&postcount=47
 
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inf64

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2011
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I've seen 3.33 GHz predicted as the base clock for 8c/16t 95w TDP Summit Ridge with 4.0 GHz being the top turbo bin. So I'm going with that for now, seem plausible?

Sorry to repeat myself, but I agree 100% with AtenRa that Summit Ridge needs to beat XV in MT workloads on a core-per-core vs. module-per-module basis, or otherwise it'll be a disappointment. We could have had 4-8m XV last year if AMD had really wanted it. I would love to have gotten a chip like that in 2015.

I think 3.2Ghz base and 3.7Ghz Turbo is realistic. Also it could just be about enough to match 5960x
 

The Stilt

Golden Member
Dec 5, 2015
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Sorry to repeat myself, but I agree 100% with AtenRa that Summit Ridge needs to beat XV in MT workloads on a core-per-core vs. module-per-module basis, or otherwise it'll be a disappointment. We could have had 4-8m XV last year if AMD had really wanted it. I would love to have gotten a chip like that in 2015.

I'm sad that you set your expectations to unreasonably high levels AMD promised 40% IPC improvement over Excavator and you say that you will be disappointed if it doesn't provide > 84% (e.g in Cinebench R15)? What 84%? That is what the second core in a CU is worth, in Cinebench R15 (CMT yield). Even if the SMT yield (>= 25%) is for some reason included to the core to core comparison, it still wouldn't be enought to make up the required difference.
 
Mar 10, 2006
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I'm sad that you set your expectations to unreasonably high levels AMD promised 40% IPC improvement over Excavator and you say that you will be disappointed if it doesn't provide > 84% (e.g in Cinebench R15)? What 84%? That is what the second core in a CU is worth, in Cinebench R15 (CMT yield). Even if the SMT yield (>= 25%) is for some reason included to the core to core comparison, it still wouldn't be enought to make up the required difference.

The Stilt, you were 100% right in your assessment. Zen is probably the most hyped up processor in the history of X86 processors. I was around for the hype around Barcelona and Bulldozer, and it did not compare to this.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
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Zen is probably the most hyped up processor in the history of X86 processors. I was around for the hype around Barcelona and Bulldozer, and it did not compare to this.
Zen is also the most unhyped processor in a while. Were you also around when some were convinced Zen was only a low power, low performance design? :sneaky:
 
Mar 10, 2006
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Zen is also the most unhyped processor in a while. Were you also around when some were convinced Zen was only a low power, low performance design? :sneaky:

I was around and if you check my post history you will see that I was against this, given that AMD itself was saying that Zen was a high performance design.

Anyway, Zen has gone from, "oh hey, hope we can get SNB-levels of IPC" to "it's going to be faster than 5960X with 2/3rd the TDP."

By the eve of the launch, I wouldn't be surprised if people will be predicting that 8C/16T Summit Ridge will be a 10C/20T Skylake-X killer. For $299, of course.
 

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
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Yeah, there is this one too, so Intel can certainly do it, which probably means AMD can do it, or get close to it.

http://ark.intel.com/products/93806/Intel-Xeon-Processor-E7-4850-v4-40M-Cache-2_10-GHz

16 cores, 40M cache, 2.1/2.8ghz, 115W tdp.
Yeaa. Just shows there is a huge low freq but high efficiency/density market here.
Its a reason i think zen is a saver bet than bd. If it cant scale to high freq due to process there is plenty profitable server segments to adress on a low freq.
Actually i thought it was the intention of the design to go for the xeon d market with a cheap lean product and win and expand the market here.
That server market, consoles, embedded and a bit of mobile and its plenty for a profitable amd. This idea to adress most of the servermarket and whatnot is just the typical -want to do everything- amd.
 

MajinCry

Platinum Member
Jul 28, 2015
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Isn't it more that lads are saying "I want it to be faster than Intel'sBrightestAndBestestK CPU", rather than hyping it up that it's going to be around that level o' performance?

The hype is more indirectly negative expectations, if ya ask me.

On the subject of Sandy performance, aren't Skylake CPUs only 20% faster than their Sandybridge equivalents, when you average out the workloads (rather than focus on just one bench or fringecase)?

If AMD manages to slot somewhere within that 20%, that's about all ya can ask from a company that's on it's last legs. And that should be pretty good on it's own, so it should have some worth on the ol' market.
 

coercitiv

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2014
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I was around and if you check my post history you will see that I was against this, given that AMD itself was saying that Zen was a high performance design.
I made no insinuation towards you.

Anyway, Zen has gone from, "oh hey, hope we can get SNB-levels of IPC" to "it's going to be faster than 5960X with 2/3rd the TDP."
That's why I mentioned the low power scenario, there will always be people choosing unlikely scenarios. Doesn't mean most people following this thread believe Zen is a Skylake-X killer.

I for one am at a loss why Zen core achieving parity in throughput with XV module while increasing ST performance is not enough (while also possibly patching a number of construction cores weak spots). If it does that the performance part is in a good place, all that really matters is power usage and die area. Zen is not about shining in a specific area, but rather about being a very balanced chip.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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I was around and if you check my post history you will see that I was against this, given that AMD itself was saying that Zen was a high performance design.

Anyway, Zen has gone from, "oh hey, hope we can get SNB-levels of IPC" to "it's going to be faster than 5960X with 2/3rd the TDP."

By the eve of the launch, I wouldn't be surprised if people will be predicting that 8C/16T Summit Ridge will be a 10C/20T Skylake-X killer. For $299, of course.

1 or 2 people with super high expectations is no where near what bulldozer had.

it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, zen just doesn't have the hype bulldozer did. large swathes of the forum were expecting intel to get conroed. this time around? most people are just hoping amd gets back into the big leagues.
 
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AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
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I will say again, unless ZEN core is way smaller and more efficient than Excavator at the same node, having less MT performance than an Excavator Module will be a fail for the server(Gloud/Data Center) market.

Also, if we take 40% IPC increase + 25% from SMT, at the same clocks ZEN would have close to 80% of MT performance of an Excavator Module.

So im thinking that ZEN SMT scaling may be more than what we are expecting or clocks will be higher than current 28nm products. Perhaps could be both ??
 

yuri69

Senior member
Jul 16, 2013
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Well, seeing AMD's track record and balance sheet, Zen featuring SNB's IPC would be a great success for AMD.
 
Mar 10, 2006
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1 or 2 people with super high expectations is no where near what bulldozer had.

It's far more than one or two individuals.

it doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, zen just doesn't have the hype bulldozer did. large swathes of the forum were expecting intel to get conroed. this time around? most people are just hoping amd gets back into the big leagues.

I'm not just referring to this forum, but the interweb at large
 
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