New Zen microarchitecture details

[crashtech]

Am i the only one who isn't bothered by TDP at all? I would buy a 2000W chip and happily drill 100mm holes in the wall for the cooling solution if the delivered performance is significantly better.

I care to the extent that it limits max OC or makes me buy something bigger than the H110 I'm using now, but as long as the TDP is within reason, it's a non-issue for me.

 

[LTC8K6]

3.4 GHz/3.7 GHz, 45W TDP CPU? Sign me up for it.

Perfect situation would be when that CPU would also cost much lower than Intel 35W i7-7700T.

Am i the only one who isn't bothered by TDP at all? I would buy a 2000W chip and happily drill 100mm holes in the wall for the cooling solution if the delivered performance is significantly better.

If a 1000W chip performed the same, and was priced in the same ballpark, which would you buy?

That's a lot of electricity to pay for...

 

[warrenw]

I said if the performance is significantly better (than current chips with current TDPs, obviously). I'm just annoyed with people being obsessed about TDP, i can't see how one would care if a desktop cpu is 45W or 65W or 95W. You can spend 40 USD on a cooler that will keep 125W+ TDP chips cool without making a fuss, in idle the chips make use of their fancy energy saving features, so who cares. GPUs eat 250W+ already, and in multimonitor mode there is lots of issues with gpus still using lots of power in idle desktop, 4-6 times more than CPUs do. Hardly anyone cares.
Obviously if the competition manages far better performance in a lot smaller TDP package, yeah, but generally speaking TDP of Ryzen and Intels offerings seems so close that i wouldn't consider it a topic worth talking about.
In my desktop rig i would like the fastest stuff i can afford and if that's a 2000W chip, give it to me. People have electric stoves consuming several 1000W in their kitchen, cars with several 100kW, but for a CPU suddenly 5W more or less matters the world? Gimme a break.

Mobile devices on battery power are a different topic, of course.

 

[bjt2]

Because all this heat must be dissipated. Moreover there is a limit on W/sqmm given by thermal conductivity. Going over 2W/sqmm is very difficult... So you could have 2000W CPU, but must be at least a 1000 sqmm chip and the heat sink must be very big and efficient...

 

[Thunder 57]

Am i the only one who isn't bothered by TDP at all? I would buy a 2000W chip and happily drill 100mm holes in the wall for the cooling solution if the delivered performance is significantly better.

Absolutely. For my last build I had to decide between a 3570k or 8350. ST performance was probably the biggest factor. Through in 77W vs 125W though and that's just all the more reason. It's not so much the extra power that I care about, but in this part of the country any unnecessary extra heat is a bad thing.

 

[crashtech]

If a 1000W chip performed the same...

There you go again!

I think we call that reductio ad absurdum. Of course it matters if it makes the lights dim when you turn it on!

 

[LTC8K6]

I guess we could call the power company and tell them we need a higher amp service...

2.5KW TDP , garden hoses running outside to a car radiator...

 

[2Dtails]

Am i the only one who isn't bothered by TDP at all? I would buy a 2000W chip and happily drill 100mm holes in the wall for the cooling solution if the delivered performance is significantly better.

Most people wouldn't know what you meant if you asked "Do you care about the TDP of your processor?". It is largely irrelevant for b2c, maybe a few need to look up to see if their old cooler is adequate for the task.

I do think that OEM's care about it tho. So they can put on the crappiest cooler they can find and match it with an airtight case. Just so the system will be dead by the time warrant ends.

 

[swilli89]

I guess we could call the power company and tell them we need a higher amp service...

2.5KW TDP , garden hoses running outside to a car radiator...

Found the true enthusiast!

 

[warrenw]

I guess we could call the power company and tell them we need a higher amp service...

2.5KW TDP , garden hoses running outside to a car radiator...

Either you're being very sarcastic, or you know very little about electricity. A computer consumes a very modest amount of electricity compared to common house hold applicances. Anything that generates heat is easily in the 1000W+ range already. Your average toaster, hair dryer, water kettle, etc all consume over 1000W, some over 2000W. I don't get it why people are scared about 100W cpus. That's quite irrational.

In hot climates people drill holes and install AC units inside&outside - but for a high performance PC this sounds absurd? Not to me.

Once something has been a certain way for a while, people get used to it and any deviation from that seems impossible to them. Guess that's a mindset problem.

Anyways - I'm curious about final ryzen clocks. Curious about its OC potential. Curious about its single threaded performance in various workloads. Couldn't care less about TDP, despite thinking about building an ITX system with an 8 core and a powerful GPU. Won't be a problem, why would it.

 

[superstition]

Most people wouldn't know what you meant if you asked "Do you care about the TDP of your processor?". It is largely irrelevant for b2c, maybe a few need to look up to see if their old cooler is adequate for the task.

I do think that OEM's care about it tho. So they can put on the crappiest cooler they can find and match it with an airtight case. Just so the system will be dead by the time warrant ends.

Cooler? You forget the holy grail — the "el cheapo" power supply. High-quality higher-wattage power supplies aren't cheap to make. It really does make sense for OEMs to not overbuild machines to the point where the excess capacity is wasted. They don't have to rely on the "e-peen" factor to sell machines, in terms of power supply capability.

But, I joke about the "el cheapo" because it is an area where penny-pinching can lead to systems with marginal power supplies. This is not a new thing, either. The really expensive Apple Lisa came with a 1.2 amp power supply initially and then it was changed to 1.6. The Commodore 64, Mac Plus, and plenty of other machines were initially sold with weak power supplies from what I recall — to save pennies.

Higher CPU efficiency helps everyone, though, really. It's just more important for OEMs because dollars and cents add up more with volume.

warrenw makes a good point with the car example. Many many people buy vehicles with drastically more performance on tap than they'll ever need, at the cost of efficiency and environmental impact. I own a used Nissan Leaf so I'm really far on the opposite end. I drive it in ECO mode, too. I also do most of my computing with a laptop.

 

[Spartak]

I said if the performance is significantly better (than current chips with current TDPs, obviously). I'm just annoyed with people being obsessed about TDP, i can't see how one would care if a desktop cpu is 45W or 65W or 95W. You can spend 40 USD on a cooler that will keep 125W+ TDP chips cool without making a fuss, in idle the chips make use of their fancy energy saving features, so who cares. GPUs eat 250W+ already, and in multimonitor mode there is lots of issues with gpus still using lots of power in idle desktop, 4-6 times more than CPUs do. Hardly anyone cares.
Obviously if the competition manages far better performance in a lot smaller TDP package, yeah, but generally speaking TDP of Ryzen and Intels offerings seems so close that i wouldn't consider it a topic worth talking about.
In my desktop rig i would like the fastest stuff i can afford and if that's a 2000W chip, give it to me. People have electric stoves consuming several 1000W in their kitchen, cars with several 100kW, but for a CPU suddenly 5W more or less matters the world? Gimme a break.

Mobile devices on battery power are a different topic, of course.

You can't see how 45W or 95W would differ for someone? I think you should step for one moment out of your "turbojet gaming rig 4all" bubble and realise there are plenty enthusiasts that value small and quiet.

I'm running a 45W TDP SFF with a 900RPM 120mm fan, and I still find it too loud. Can't wait till the 35W Zen APU's are out to build my first completely silent rig. I'll probably need to turn off a core and possibly SMT to get it around ~25W for a fully passive cooling solution inside a SFF. As an added bonus both of those might increase ST performance if it leaves more room for the CPU to overclock. That's another thing about low TDP and good cooling solutions if you paid any attention to how Zen overclocks without a pre-fixed clock ceiling...

 

[DeletedMember377562]

You can't see how 45W or 95W would differ for someone? I think you should step for one moment out of your "turbojet gaming rig 4all" bubble and realise there are plenty enthusiasts that value small and quiet.

I'm running a 45W TDP SFF with a 900RPM 120mm fan, and I still find it too loud. Can't wait till the 35W Zen APU's are out to build my first completely silent rig. I'll probably need to turn off a core and possibly SMT to get it around ~25W for a fully passive cooling solution inside a SFF. As an added bonus both of those might increase ST performance if it leaves more room for the CPU to overclock. That's another thing about low TDP and good cooling solutions if you paid any attention to how Zen overclocks without a pre-fixed clock ceiling...

I completely agree. That fact that he has no understanding of why people would want less general TDP, meaning need for smaller coolers/less noise, smaller cases, more room for OC, etc., is beyond me...

I have an NCASE M1 myself, and these things are very important to me.

However, I do wonder why you need your fans at 900 RPM on a 45W chip? I have a 6700K (95W) in my NCASE, and even my NH-U9S with dual 92mm fans at 700 RPM give me a top CPU temp of 65C when stress testing. On my last rig, a NH-U14S on a 4790K in the Fractal Nano S, i didn't even have a fan on the heatsink, and still had very good temps.

 

[Crumpet]

Which is why they should release low TDP undervolted CPU's for small form factor pc builds..

And then give us full fat TDP beastly gaming machines for those of us who have a pc with enough space to breathe.

 

[hojnikb]

Most people wouldn't know what you meant if you asked "Do you care about the TDP of your processor?". It is largely irrelevant for b2c, maybe a few need to look up to see if their old cooler is adequate for the task.

I do think that OEM's care about it tho. So they can put on the crappiest cooler they can find and match it with an airtight case. Just so the system will be dead by the time warrant ends.

It's really all down to cost and nothing else. Lower power cpu ? cheaper board (less powerful vrms), cheaper psu, cheaper cooler, less or no exhaust fans and in case of laptops smaller batteries.

So yeah, lower power is always desired.

 

[warrenw]

You can't see how 45W or 95W would differ for someone? I think you should step for one moment out of your "turbojet gaming rig 4all" bubble and realise there are plenty enthusiasts that value small and quiet.

Have you ever done the math about how much space your PC actually takes up? Lets take a totally average room, like maybe 16m². Lets assume 2m ceiling height, thats 32m³ of space. Now how large is the average midi tower? 0,25x0,5x0,6m? That works out to 0,075m³. Fairly small number compared to 32m³, isn't it. In fact the average midi tower works out to be 0,2% of the volume in an average room. Give or take.

I'm running a 45W TDP SFF with a 900RPM 120mm fan, and I still find it too loud.

Seems to me that fan is shit, or you're maybe using that PC as a pillow. If you went with a slightly larger case and a good passive solution, there wouldn't be any fans necessary.

Can't wait till the 35W Zen APU's are out to build my first completely silent rig.

I did that 15 years ago, when 120mm fans weren't a big thing. Case was made from wood, with foam for noise cancelling inside and labyrinths for the airflow. OC'ed AthlonXP that sucked way over 100W. Granted, not exactly SFF, but if silence is the priority, make it one.

I completely agree. That fact that he has no understanding of why people would want less general TDP

Oh less TDP is nice to have, but its a rather low priority to me and realistically for most people its irrelevant. A few people obesess about it for no good reason, in my opinion. Lets say intel would sell 8Ghz Kaby Lakes with 1000W TDP, i would totally buy it.

 

[Spartak]

I completely agree. That fact that he has no understanding of why people would want less general TDP, meaning need for smaller coolers/less noise, smaller cases, more room for OC, etc., is beyond me...

I have an NCASE M1 myself, and these things are very important to me.

However, I do wonder why you need your fans at 900 RPM on a 45W chip? I have a 6700K (95W) in my NCASE, and even my NH-U9S with dual 92mm fans at 700 RPM give me a top CPU temp of 65C when stress testing. On my last rig, a NH-U14S on a 4790K in the Fractal Nano S, i didn't even have a fan on the heatsink, and still had very good temps.

well you have two fans versus a single fan in mine...but it's indeed a bit overkill (temps stay around 50-55 degrees with prime95 iirc). However, it's the lowest speed I can run my fan on. If I increase the impedance further, it stops working.

 

[Spartak]

Have you ever done the math about how much space your PC actually takes up? Lets take a totally average room, like maybe 16m². Lets assume 2m ceiling height, thats 32m³ of space. Now how large is the average midi tower? 0,25x0,5x0,6m? That works out to 0,075m³. Fairly small number compared to 32m³, isn't it. In fact the average midi tower works out to be 0,2% of the volume in an average room. Give or take.



Seems to me that fan is shit, or you're maybe using that PC as a pillow. If you went with a slightly larger case and a good passive solution, there wouldn't be any fans necessary.



I did that 15 years ago, when 120mm fans weren't a big thing. Case was made from wood, with foam for noise cancelling inside and labyrinths for the airflow. OC'ed AthlonXP that sucked way over 100W. Granted, not exactly SFF, but if silence is the priority, make it one.



Oh less TDP is nice to have, but its a rather low priority to me and realistically for most people its irrelevant. A few people obesess about it for no good reason, in my opinion. Lets say intel would sell 8Ghz Kaby Lakes with 1000W TDP, i would totally buy it.

I like my case thank you very much and like I mentioned in the previous post it's a bit overkill right now. I value my space and I value design, so would be nice if you could get your head out of your arse and understand different people value different things.

 

[DeletedMember377562]

Those are great speeds. You should try without a fan. You have no idea how "little" of an importance a fan can actually be. Adding another fan to my setup gave me maybe a drop of 4C, which not a whole lot.

Oh less TDP is nice to have, but its a rather low priority to me and realistically for most people its irrelevant. A few people obesess about it for no good reason, in my opinion. Lets say intel would sell 8Ghz Kaby Lakes with 1000W TDP, i would totally buy it.

Yes, but that's also not how it works. Intel are not limiting themselves because of anything. They are being limited. There are only so many ways and to such a degree that heat can be transferred from the cores. Otherwise, you'd be able to overclock your chip to 8 GHz. But that's only achievable with liquid nitrogen...

 

[Spartak]

Those are great speeds. You should try without a fan. You have no idea how "little" of an importance a fan can actually be. Adding another fan to my setup gave me maybe a drop of 4C, which not a whole lot.

Great temps you mean? Without that one fan there isnt any mechanical airflow, and temperatures rise too much, I tried that. Going from one to two or from 700rpm to 1500rpm doesnt matter that much indeed if the cooler itself is beefy. But going from 900rpm to zero actually does

 

[Atari2600]

Am i the only one who isn't bothered by TDP at all? I would buy a 2000W chip and happily drill 100mm holes in the wall for the cooling solution if the delivered performance is significantly better.

The owners of the server farms which Zen is really designed for tend to frown on such cooling arrangements. [/understatement]

 

[Dave2150]

I agree, obviously, afterall im using a balls to the wall overclocked Nehalem and have been for 6 years. I dont care about TDP for my gaming desktop.

I find this odd. You talk of "balls to the wall" Nehalem and that you "don't care about TDP", yet you're using a very low performance first gen CPU at only 4.2Ghz?

Times have moved on, a Skylake/Kabylake at 4.8/5.0Ghz would completely destroy your setup, while offering great new features, using less power and being far quieter.

You remind me of those people still using black and white TV's, boasting that everything looks better in black and white.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Am i the only one who isn't bothered by TDP at all? I would buy a 2000W chip and happily drill 100mm holes in the wall for the cooling solution if the delivered performance is significantly better.

That would be very hard to cool and kind of a PITA to be honest.

I want more performance and I'm willing to buy a reasonably beefy cooler, but there are limits to my "enthusiasm."

 

[frozentundra123456]

Either you're being very sarcastic, or you know very little about electricity. A computer consumes a very modest amount of electricity compared to common house hold applicances. Anything that generates heat is easily in the 1000W+ range already. Your average toaster, hair dryer, water kettle, etc all consume over 1000W, some over 2000W. I don't get it why people are scared about 100W cpus. That's quite irrational.

In hot climates people drill holes and install AC units inside&outside - but for a high performance PC this sounds absurd? Not to me.

Once something has been a certain way for a while, people get used to it and any deviation from that seems impossible to them. Guess that's a mindset problem.

Anyways - I'm curious about final ryzen clocks. Curious about its OC potential. Curious about its single threaded performance in various workloads. Couldn't care less about TDP, despite thinking about building an ITX system with an 8 core and a powerful GPU. Won't be a problem, why would it.

When did you last put a toaster inside your computer case? Would you like your cpu to glow red hot like a toaster oven?

 

[frozentundra123456]

That would be very hard to cool and kind of a PITA to be honest.

I want more performance and I'm willing to buy a reasonably beefy cooler, but there are limits to my "enthusiasm."

Yea, it all depends on the performance. But there definitely are limits, and power consumption *does* matter, in that it ultimately limits performance, and obviously, at equal price and performance, one would be an idiot to use a higher power consuming chip.