New Zen microarchitecture details

[MrTeal]

How could it be anything but sarcasm?

I don't think it's odd to start looking at the power your computer system is using, and try to reduce it. Especially if you have a high end CPU and a high end GPU.

People generally don't run their hair dryers or water kettles for hours at a time every day like a gamer would run his 2.5Kw TDP cpu with external Ron Davis radiator...

As far as not caring about a 2000 watt TDP cpu, I think most people would soon quit gaming with a 2Kw+ computer system for hours a day when they saw what it added to the electric bill.

I'd imagine it would depend on the performance scaling with that 2000W TDP CPU. If it gave me 20x the performance of a 100W TDP CPU I would easily accept that tradeoff. If it gave me twice the performance, it wouldn't be worth it. Somewhere in between those two extremes you would have to start weighing the benefits of it.

Assuming it has some kind of reasonablely low idle power usage, I'd stick a 2kW CPU into my system in a heartbeat if it was 16C/32T and gave twice the ST performance of my 4.5GHz HSW-E system.

 

[Rifter]

I find this odd. You talk of "balls to the wall" Nehalem and that you "don't care about TDP", yet you're using a very low performance first gen CPU at only 4.2Ghz?

Times have moved on, a Skylake/Kabylake at 4.8/5.0Ghz would completely destroy your setup, while offering great new features, using less power and being far quieter.

You remind me of those people still using black and white TV's, boasting that everything looks better in black and white.

Im still using it because intel has yet to offer me a reason to upgrade and i enjoy overclocking and consider overclocking a key point for this hobby its where i get alot of enjoyment out of it. Every chip i have ever run has been overclocked to the extreme. Sure i could get a KL and overclock it, barely if you can even call it overclocking, they are still hitting a wall at 5Ghz which is what a 13% overclock over stock 4 core turbo speeds on a 7700k? thats honestly laughable and makes the k series not even worth buying if it wasnt for the fact that it has higher turbo. I hardly call that worth my time to overclock considering my current setup is offering a 54% overclock over stock speeds.

I would have upgraded to a 6 core by now, had intel made that an option, but it has still yet to hit mainstream platform even all these years later. When i built this rig it had a 6 core option already on HEDT and i promised myself i wasnt upgrading again till 6 cores were mainstream, they already were on the AMD side with thuban shortly after I built this rig. Intel should have been there by now too not 6 years behind AMD bringing 6 cores to mainstream.

So im waiting out Zen, if its a hit ill build a new zen rig later this year, so far its looking like they are doing ok and are unlocked so should offer lots of room to tweak and overclock, should be alot of fun. If its not a hit ill go with a intel 6 core CL when it hits mainstream next year and look forward to intels dull modern day overclocking but at least it will be a 6 core.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Well, we waited long enough for Zen that waiting few more months and see how Basin Falls turn out is only reasonable.

Not sure why anyone would wait for Skylake-X unless they really want to pay the premium for Intel's HEDT platform. Anything 8c and 10c will probably be at least as expensive as Haswell-E, and the boards . . . ouch.

If I were really in the market for Optane, quad-channel and 8c or 10c then maybe.

At least Summit Ridge offers the promise of 8c on a consumer-level platform. And some of us are just AMD fanboys that want to buy something good from AMD, for once.

 

[LTC8K6]

I'd imagine it would depend on the performance scaling with that 2000W TDP CPU. If it gave me 20x the performance of a 100W TDP CPU I would easily accept that tradeoff. If it gave me twice the performance, it wouldn't be worth it. Somewhere in between those two extremes you would have to start weighing the benefits of it.

Assuming it has some kind of reasonablely low idle power usage, I'd stick a 2kW CPU into my system in a heartbeat if it was 16C/32T and gave twice the ST performance of my 4.5GHz HSW-E system.

Well, there are tradeoffs. If it had 20X the performance it would obviously finish tasks in a fraction of the time, mitigating the high power problem by quite a bit. However, if it's a system that will run hard for hours at a time, such as with gaming, the power use becomes far more pronounced.

 

[CentroX]

I hope we dont have to wait more then one month for news.

 

[Mechanical Man]

Not sure why anyone would wait for Skylake-X unless they really want to pay the premium for Intel's HEDT platform. Anything 8c and 10c will probably be at least as expensive as Haswell-E, and the boards . . . ouch.

If I were really in the market for Optane, quad-channel and 8c or 10c then maybe.

At least Summit Ridge offers the promise of 8c on a consumer-level platform. And some of us are just AMD fanboys that want to buy something good from AMD, for once.

Yeah something some guys have missed is, that demand for am4 is much greater than intel hedt. That should drive down the platform costs a lot compared to intel. That is, if Ryzen delivers what has been shown.

 

[KTE]

Well it's settled then. No one should buy anything Ryzen. We should all just wait till August for Intel's obviously better stuff.

September 2016: Well it's settled then. No one should buy anything Intel. We should all just wait till April for AMDs obviously better stuff.


You've waited long enough for Zen... Why wouldn't you buy Intel IF the perf/price was better.

Sent from HTC 10
(Opinions are own)

 

[Dresdenboy]

Well, we waited long enough for Zen that waiting few more months and see how Basin Falls turn out is only reasonable.

I better don't leak the Zen+ timeframe or this waiting would go forever. Unless SKL-X has at least 10% higher IPC at iso power (or better) of course.

 

[cytg111]

Well, there are tradeoffs. If it had 20X the performance it would obviously finish tasks in a fraction of the time, mitigating the high power problem by quite a bit. However, if it's a system that will run hard for hours at a time, such as with gaming, the power use becomes far more pronounced.

at 20x ST performance? I dont care, ill take it. I will rationalize it somehow, heating up the house during winter or something..
Why did the leaks die out? Did all the ES return to sender or what? Damnit.

 

[arandomguy]

I better don't leak the Zen+ timeframe or this waiting would go forever. Unless SKL-X has at least 10% higher IPC at iso power (or better) of course.

It's more dependent on whether or not the product is possibly disruptive. Zen and Coffee Lake are possibly disruptive products in terms of what they offer and pricing. In both cases you could be looking at 50% or more cores at the current mainstream pricing levels with roughly comparable or even improved ST performance, so potentially 50% or more MT performance for the same price which some same is becoming more relevant for certain workloads. It's unlikely Zen+ and SKL-X will be disruptive, they'll be the same iterative performance improvements (10% faster is really unnoticeable for most people in practice) at the same price levels (or whatever new price levels the the market has already adjusted to from previous disruptive releases).

So in Zen's case it will come down to pricing given what we know. If they price a 6 core build (entire platform) at minimum against the 7700k (entire platform) that would be exciting. 8 core as an alternative the 7700k and 6 core against the 7600k would be a large game changer. If it's just going to priced and positioned as a slightly better option than HEDT it'll be a rather meh release, as you could've been using a Intel HEDT build for quite some time now, and the argument for sure it isn't a strong jump in point and might as well wait.

 

[warrenw]

Most people here didn't get my thought.

Why bother about 10-20W more TDP if a 40$ cooler takes care of it and the CPU also delivers more performance? I'm not talking about buying a 125W FX vs some 65W i7, but i'm talking about 65W ryzen vs 95W ryzen. I personally even think 95W is a bit low, i wouldn't mind 125W or even 150W if there was a performance increase going with that.

GPUs started out without any cooler on the chips and probably 1W TDP, now we got 300W+ TDP monsters with large coolers and everyone thinks that's perfectly fine for a gaming rig, but people shit their pants about 95W CPUs (which enjoy the benefit of vastly larger coolers)

 

[AtenRa]

My next build will be an up to150W for the entire system for a project im doing, so im more interesting in perf/watt at this time.

 

[SpaceBeer]

When I bought A10-7850K, I planned to fit it in small case with low profile cooler and picoPSU, especially since it has 45W and 65W TDP modes. Then I released I don't care about space (case size) and power consumption, and would rather go for large case, large cooler, strong PSU and freedom to overclock it if I want

I also think Ryzen will hace configurable TDP. I mean, it should, since it hase been there since Kaveri. So people could use it in the way they prefer

 

[Glo.]

My next build will be an up to150W for the entire system for a project im doing, so im more interesting in perf/watt at this time.

Same for me, but I will go for Raven Ridge APU, highest end one.

 

[jpiniero]

If it's just going to priced and positioned as a slightly better option than HEDT it'll be a rather meh release, as you could've been using a Intel HEDT build for quite some time now, and the argument for sure it isn't a strong jump in point and might as well wait.

That's sort of what it is though. There's going to be some pent up demand for Ryzen, so there really isn't a need to make it that cheap this early. But they can still offer quite a bit of a discount. Like the 6900K is $1039 at Amazon. AMD could price the 8-core at $699 or $799. Factoring in that boards are going to be $100+ cheaper, that would be quite a bit cheaper overall.

 

[cytg111]

What the *beep* are you guys talking about? You want to regress? Go back in time, devolve? Degenerate? You all talibans?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karda...e:Annual_world_primary_energy_consumption.svg

Only one way forward folks, *more power* .. or get left behind.

 

[Atari2600]

What the *beep* are you guys talking about? You want to regress? Go back in time, devolve? Degenerate? You all talibans?

derka derka derka

 

[dfk7677]

By looking at the top revenue segments in desktop processors in newegg, someone should say that there are 4 of them.
The one dominated by 6700k & 4790k (340$), the one by 6c Haswell-E processors (540-740$, including the extra cost of the MB), the i5 6400 or 4460 (200$) and the 1100$+ segment by 5690X.

So I think that AMD will place a 6c12t (310$) against the first, a low clocked 8c16t (500$) against the 2nd, a 4c8t(180$) against the 3rd and the high clocked 8c16t (650$) against the last.

 

[krumme]

That's sort of what it is though. There's going to be some pent up demand for Ryzen, so there really isn't a need to make it that cheap this early. But they can still offer quite a bit of a discount. Like the 6900K is $1039 at Amazon. AMD could price the 8-core at $699 or $799. Factoring in that boards are going to be $100+ cheaper, that would be quite a bit cheaper overall.

Yep. If getting most profit q2 is what you go for thats the solution. We see that kind of decision making all the time and its what amd did with phenom and bd. Pissing in your pants to keep you warm. Typical amd business strategy.

If 2017 to 2020 max profit is what you go for you start with price that more or less last untill zen+ and gladly also is viable for zen++.

Amd have a cpu that is basicly 8c core for 90% of the harvested dies. They have aprox 200 working dies per wafer. Use 20k wafers a month and its pretty obvious a 500 to 700 usd cpu is doomed to colapse in price if they want to move the stuff. First impressions last. Cutting prices later is having far less effect and hurts brand value like nothing else.

Intel and nv knows that. Adapting price q3 is absolutely the most unprofessional and idiotic they can do. Typical budget crap brand signalling that happens when you dont know how to drive a business. This is like basic marketing shool stuff knowledge.

If amd have any trouble setting price now and is in doubt its simply because they dont have the knowledge how to drive a brand.

The pricing should just a be like core i3 i5 i7 except aprox 10% more expensive to signal premium brand for the sr3 sr5 sr7. Then the prices will last and the benefit will be colossal just this autum. It have never been more simple imo. But hey a bunch of narrowminded beancounters with an excell sheet mimicking margins like lemming can easily destroy it. With a superior brand they can get all the cheap cash they need all the time that far exceeds what a shortlived pleasure can give.

 

[Atari2600]

So. Lets assume Zen is clock for clock same as Haswell. Lets also assume it can clock up to:

8C: 3.6/4.0 GHz
6C: 3.7/4.1 GHz
4C: 3.8/4.2 GHz

Lets also assume there are 3 editions per core count, the BE (top line), standard, and low power, the standard dropping 0.5 GHz off the clocks of BE across the board and the low power dropping 1.0 Ghz off the clocks of BE across the board.

Now, what do AMD price it at?

Personally, I think:

8C BE: $700
8C Std: $550
8C LP: $400

6C BE: $500
6C Std: $400
6C LP: $300

4C BE: $350
4C Std: $250
4C LP: $200

Would do the job. That is pricing the bottom line 4C Zen at the same price as the top-of-the line FX9590 (on newegg) but coming below Intel at all price points for 4C, 6C and 8C.


edit: As crashtech points out, a $500 4C?!?! I was just glancing across newegg, not noticing that the highest priced quads are due to limited supply of EOL parts.

 

[crashtech]

A $500 quad core???

 

[dfk7677]

6C BE: $500
6C Std: $400
6C LP: $300

4C BE: $450
4C Std: $350
4C LP: $200

Would do the job. That is pricing the bottom line 4C Zen at the same price as the top-of-the line FX9590 (on newegg) but coming below Intel at all price points for 4C, 6C and 8C.

I believe that a pricing like that for 4c would kill it. Nobody would buy 4c BE and Std models for such a small discount for 33% less cores.

 

[Atari2600]

A $500 quad core???

Whoops. Edited.

 

[SpaceBeer]

What are the chances to see Zen (or Zen+/++) on 12nm FDX in 2-3 years? What changes are needed to use different process for this chip?

 

[cytg111]

So. Lets assume Zen is clock for clock same as Haswell. Lets also assume it can clock up to:

8C: 3.6/4.0 GHz
6C: 3.7/4.1 GHz
4C: 3.8/4.2 GHz

Lets also assume there are 3 editions per core count, the BE (top line), standard, and low power, the standard dropping 0.5 GHz off the clocks of BE across the board and the low power dropping 1.0 Ghz off the clocks of BE across the board.

Now, what do AMD price it at?

Personally, I think:

8C BE: $700
8C Std: $550
8C LP: $400

6C BE: $500
6C Std: $400
6C LP: $300

4C BE: $350
4C Std: $250
4C LP: $200

Would do the job. That is pricing the bottom line 4C Zen at the same price as the top-of-the line FX9590 (on newegg) but coming below Intel at all price points for 4C, 6C and 8C.


edit: As crashtech points out, a $500 4C?!?! I was just glancing across newegg, not noticing that the highest priced quads are due to limited supply of EOL parts.

Didnt we get somewhere that ALL SKUs will be unlocked and oc'able?
From an enthusiast standpoint that would argue to get the LP and overclock-away.