Nintendo DX GPU?

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Feb 19, 2009
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Nintendo using ARM in their NX? Not a chance. AMD SOC confirmed, meaning AMD's already proven x86/GCN APU is going to be used. It costs AMD less (or none) in R&D.

Another point for not using ARM, cross-platform games may well ignore a NX port if it's ARM based. Nintendo doesn't want to be in a position where they lack major AAA titles that other consoles get, not anymore when they are the underdog by far.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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There is a 0% chance this is happening. You cannot design a sub-$399 console that can do 4K 30 FPS modern gaming at high settings.

I actually game at 4K with only an R290X.

But I get > 30 fps with settings that result in image quality close to High/Ultra. The key is maxing Texture Quality. I'm playing Fallout 4 now, even with Ultra texture mods, 45-60 fps.

Lots of performance killing post processing and shadow while they do add some extra quality to the scene, aren't really make or break, once you have good models, good textures, good view distance etc.

Polaris 10 will easily beat a 290X. If AMD sells that APU for $150, console makers can still do a $399 console, since they use cheap ram (not HBM2), mechanic HDD etc.

I worked out the cost per APU already previously, on 14nm with the published defect/cm2, it would cost AMD ~$50 per APU. This is a lot better situation than early day 28nm APU in the PS4/Xbone!
 

JDG1980

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2013
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Lots of performance killing post processing and shadow while they do add some extra quality to the scene, aren't really make or break, once you have good models, good textures, good view distance etc.

And that kind of stuff is more of a big deal on games that aim for photorealism than on the kind of games Nintendo is known for. Mario and Zelda don't need to be photorealistic, and actually work better when they're done in an intentionally "cartoonish" style. You'd be surprised how little GPU power is needed to run Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker in 4K, and how good it looks on the Dolphin emulator even with standard-def textures.

Nintendo can easily get their first-party titles running on 4K @ 30Hz with a Hawaii-class GPU.
 

RussianSensation

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Sep 5, 2003
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Ya but the console needs to last 5+ years and be able to run future games at 4K too. Besides, the elephant in the room -- too small of an adoption worldwide of 4K TVs.

The other argument you used that people mostly buy Nintendo to play 1st party titles failed them with the Wii U. The firm was incapable of making enough 3D Nintendo games. This is because it's far more complex to make a modern 3D game today that works. Look at Starfox -- total disaster.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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Ya but the console needs to last 5+ years and be able to run future games at 4K too. Besides, the elephant in the room -- too small of an adoption worldwide of 4K TVs.

The other argument you used that people mostly buy Nintendo to play 1st party titles failed them with the Wii U. The firm was incapable of making enough 3D Nintendo games. This is because it's far more complex to make a modern 3D game today that works. Look at Starfox -- total disaster.

The more time devs spend on a console cycle, the more they can extract out of the hardware. R290X class can easily handle 4K gaming at console settings (better in-fact, it's capable of maxing texture quality). Polaris 10 should be able to deliver that on consoles even easier, due to the APU design/HSA and a better API.
 

R0H1T

Platinum Member
Jan 12, 2013
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Ya but the console needs to last 5+ years and be able to run future games at 4K too. Besides, the elephant in the room -- too small of an adoption worldwide of 4K TVs.

The other argument you used that people mostly buy Nintendo to play 1st party titles failed them with the Wii U. The firm was incapable of making enough 3D Nintendo games. This is because it's far more complex to make a modern 3D game today that works. Look at Starfox -- total disaster.
They don't & in fact 4~6 years is the optimal lifetime of a console, depending on the console makers financials, but the PS3 & Xbox 360 lasted as long as they did also because coding for them was very hard. Therefore the "untapped potential" was realized much later in their life cycle. The x86 consoles just make coding a lot easier & there isn't much untapped potential at the end of say 4 years.

If all the new gen consoles support 4K native gaming then you can be rest assured that it'd drive the 4K display sales. That's always been how it is, people wanting a new console will get that 4K TV, & not the other way round.
 
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railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
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Interesting new info, salt it, but if I had to guess Miyamoto's claims for the future of Nintendo pretty much solidified to me, at least, they weren't going the x86+dGPU system of MSFT/SONY

https://arcadegirl64.wordpress.com/2016/05/13/so-about-nx/

After speaking to seven different people this week, I can say with confidence that this is false. NX is not using x86 architecture like PlayStation 4 and Xbox One. The NX has special, custom-made chips and the overall design of the hardware is very modern.

Tie this to Nintendo stating they weren't selling at a loss and Miyamoto for years pushing to unify their handheld and console platforms.

Get the feeling Nintendo is going a ARM based handheld as the primary driver, with a cheap console set box that uses the handheld as a controller but gives the games a little more polish for the bigger screen.

Nintendo has catered to their demograph for decades and have never really chased the money/courting of giant devs. (You don't need Fury X/980 Ti performance to sell millions of copies of Pokemon/Mario/Zelda)

Oh well, let's see what they reveal as we get closer to E3.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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Interesting new info, salt it, but if I had to guess Miyamoto's claims for the future of Nintendo pretty much solidified to me, at least, they weren't going the x86+dGPU system of MSFT/SONY

https://arcadegirl64.wordpress.com/2016/05/13/so-about-nx/

There was a previous rumor (supposedly from a developer) indicating it was easy to port existing console code to the new Nintendo system which would suggest x86.

Nintendo needs to have a system that offers easy cross-platform capabilities as the WiiU proved that they can't survive off of loyalists alone. I think the ideal strategy for Nintendo is to launch about two years after their competitors and offer similar or slightly better hardware which no longer carries the same premium as it originally did. They have enough of a faithful base to sell consoles out of the gate and if they have the same capabilities of the competition, it makes it easy for third parties to sell their titles on Nintendo systems.
 

David_k

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Apr 25, 2016
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Doesn't AMD has an ARM licence to do exactly what Nintendo needs? cheap arm cpu and small GCN block can make a decent chip performance wise for what Nintendo needs.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
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There was a previous rumor (supposedly from a developer) indicating it was easy to port existing console code to the new Nintendo system which would suggest x86.

Nintendo needs to have a system that offers easy cross-platform capabilities as the WiiU proved that they can't survive off of loyalists alone. I think the ideal strategy for Nintendo is to launch about two years after their competitors and offer similar or slightly better hardware which no longer carries the same premium as it originally did. They have enough of a faithful base to sell consoles out of the gate and if they have the same capabilities of the competition, it makes it easy for third parties to sell their titles on Nintendo systems.

Well, I know Dolphin works great on x86 so that is perhaps what someone said?

However, I disagree that Nintendo needs 3rd party support to stay alive. Wii U is only a "fail" when compared to the previous unpredictable runaway success Wii. Nintendo has been third since it became a 3 dog race.

Nintendo sees huge sales from their own titles even when they had a decent third party system (SNES/NES). If the console/product is cheap enough it will become a mainstream gamers second console. It was common (and seems to still be) to see users say they have two consoles MSFT+Nintendo or SONY+Nintendo.

If the price is right, and the system is set so you don't have to buy multiple copies of games, I can see it being a huge success. Especially if they support classic Nintendo titles which should be no issue.


Wow, is this true? Interesting turn of events.

EDIT: Someone recently showed me how NV is pushing for PC games getting ported to their Shield ARM devices. This is probably what you menat about easier to port, right?
 
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caswow

Senior member
Sep 18, 2013
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if they go only nvidia they will go down quicker than the titanic. nvidia has nothing for real consoles not those android kids toys.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
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Wow, is this true? Interesting turn of events.

EDIT: Someone recently showed me how NV is pushing for PC games getting ported to their Shield ARM devices. This is probably what you menat about easier to port, right?

No. Tegra is in Android based console. So it would be extremely easy to port from Android based consoles, using Tegra SoC to NX.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
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there is no market for this.

In Nvidia's world - yes. You do not know JHH if you think otherwise .

On the other hand, that would explain why Nvidia did not killed Denver CPUs and did not stopped development of the technology behind them.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
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They don't & in fact 4~6 years is the optimal lifetime of a console, depending on the console makers financials, but the PS3 & Xbox 360 lasted as long as they did also because coding for them was very hard.

That's not why at all. The reason PS360 generation lasted so long was for 2 major reasons:

1) Both MS and Sony lost billions of dollars on the hardware of those consoles. In turn, this meant the generation needed to be extended to recoup the losses via game sales. MS ended up not even making $1 on XB360 when taking the entire generation into account.

2) The Great Recession. It would have been suicidal to release new consoles in 2008-2011 when no one was spending $. Europe had austerity measures and people were in savings mode mentality. Couple that with huge install base of PS360, and it was cheaper to make and sell games to a larger install-base of PS360 console gamers.

Therefore the "untapped potential" was realized much later in their life cycle. The x86 consoles just make coding a lot easier & there isn't much untapped potential at the end of say 4 years.

The untapped potential in this instance has a different dimension for the NX. The NX is coming out in March 2017 and will need to last 4-6 years. That means the NX will be competing with PS5/XB2 consoles towards the 2nd half of its life-cycle whether or not Nintendo realizes it. Maybe Nintendo is stupid enough to think Nintendo consoles don't compete for the same customers. For that reason, it would be a miracle if Nintendo's NX can even make a console that can do 1080p @ 60 fps over 3-4 years starting Spring 2017. The last thing they need to do is focus on 4K gaming.

If all the new gen consoles support 4K native gaming then you can be rest assured that it'd drive the 4K display sales. That's always been how it is, people wanting a new console will get that 4K TV, & not the other way round.

That has nothing to do with my post and nothing to do with the marketplace in which Wii U will launch. I am not debating the next gen 4K capable consoles will drive sales of 4K TVs. The point is in 2017, most of the world will not be on 4K TVs and 2 major consoles won't do 4K gaming. The PS4 Neo may advertise it but it still won't be powerful enough for it. 4K gaming at best is the realm of 2019-2020 consoles with 6-8X the power of PS4/XB1.

However, I disagree that Nintendo needs 3rd party support to stay alive. Wii U is only a "fail" when compared to the previous unpredictable runaway success Wii.

Wow, Wii U is the worst selling traditional Nintendo console of all time. We don't need to compare it to the Wii to see that it was a disaster. Your 1st sentence is flat out wrong because the main criticism leveled at Nintendo's consoles starting with N64 and beyond was inferior 3rd party support against their competitors. Nintendo isn't capable of launching 1st party titles quick enough to sustain the console's sales. Therefore, 3rd party support for a Nintendo console is vital. It's why 3DS/New 3DS destroyed the PS Vita.

From the link you provided, if true, Nintendo's NX is pretty much done unless they price the console at $199.

"After speaking to seven different people this week, I can say with confidence that this is false. NX is not using x86 architecture like PlayStation 4 and Xbox One. The NX has special, custom-made chips and the overall design of the hardware is very modern. The chips are industry leading because they are very modern chips, but having modern chips doesn’t necessarily mean Nintendo is aiming to create the most powerful hardware on the market. Furthermore, any NX rumors on “Polaris chips” and “Polaris architecture” are all wacky. There’s a good reason why those rumors are wacky.

In terms of raw power, numerous sources tell me that NX is much closer to Xbox One than PlayStation 4. Even that might be stretching it a tiny bit. Anyone who is claiming that NX is “two times the power of PS4 GPU” is being misled by their sources. Based on what I’ve heard, I don’t believe the NX will compete directly with PS4 (Neo) / PS4K in raw power.

There will be plenty of debates over the NX’s specs because it’s not simple to directly compare two apples (with x86 architecture) to an orange (that doesn’t use x86 architecture). But everything that I’ve heard (so far) indicates that NX isn’t going to blow away any of the consoles on the market today…except for Wii U."


With Uncharted 4 and $299 sales on PS4 happening around Holiday 2016, and more big hitting games such as Gran Turismo coming out, more price drops on XB1 and PS4 in 2017, Nintendo stands little chance if their console is only barely faster than the XB1 and has little 3rd party titles.

The one part Nintendo execs don't seem to get is a 2017 console is not only a PS4/XB1 competitor. Most people who bought Wii/Wii U got burned so hard by them. This means the amount of gamers left who are now willing to buy a Nintendo console in the first 1-2 years before seeing 100s of games is smaller than ever. By the time NX launches, PS4/XB1 will have an install base in excess of 80+ million units and a games library so vast, nothing on the NX will be able to compete.

The minute it's confirmed that the 2017 NX is barely better than the already laughed at 2013 XB1 (PS4 outsells XB1 by 5-7:1 outside the US/UK), it will become a laughing stock. I don't even think a $199 price will save it. At that point I'd rather buy an XB1 as a secondary console and because at least it'll have a normal controller that can be used on the PC too and a far superior games library.

By the time NX even builds its software library, it'll be the launch of PS5/XB2 and then NX will become the next Wii/Wii U for 3rd parties.

Launching in 2017 + hardware weaker than PS4 will be the biggest downfall of this console unless they start giving away free games (buy NX home console game, get NX handheld game free).

No. Tegra is in Android based console. So it would be extremely easy to port from Android based consoles, using Tegra SoC to NX.

At the same time it would be a double edged sword because if the NX is an ARM SoC console and not x86, how much effort are 3rd parties going to put into porting XB1/PS4 games?

Nintendo doesn't get that all the gamers who grew up with it ever wanted was a powerful Nintendo console + great online gaming capabilities/community + traditional BluRay + strong 1st and 3rd party line-up + traditional controller. Nintendo has not been able to deliver this since N64 and now they think they need to do something "different" and launch late, like 4 years later than the current gen consoles.

It's sad to see for me how the company which made me a gamer in the first place is being driven straight into the ground because they don't want to do what makes sense.

They will have Zelda at launch but the Wii U by then will be so cheap in the used market, it'll be easy to just buy that, play Zelda and sell it.

On the other hand, that would explain why Nvidia did not killed Denver CPUs and did not stopped development of the technology behind them.

They can make the NX handheld whatever they want. Since they are a monopoly in that space, whoever wants to play handheld games in a traditional way will buy the NX. It's the home NX console that's facing a major risk of failing hard. Not a single person I know who used to own N64, as I did, has ever purchased another Nintendo console ever since. Why is that? Nintendo hasn't figured it out in 20 years.
 
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railven

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Mar 25, 2010
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Now SemiAccurate is reporting Nvidia SoC for next Nintendo too?

http://semiaccurate.com/2016/05/12/guess-whos-silicon-is-in-nintendos-nx/

EDIT: Oops, didn't realize the article doesn't actually mention Nvidia. Gaf poster's recount
Though Nvidia downplayed console margins, their pride was hurt by the loss in console contracts. All the talk about "focusing on Shield" was a cover for the fact that MS and Sony had soured on them and would not enter negotiations.
Nvidia team was told to get a console win or "go home." Enter Nintendo, who apparently made off very well in this deal. This to the point that SemiAccurate questions whether this is a "win" at all for Nvidia.
SA has heard that Nvidia are promising software, support, and the whole shebang at a very low cost. According to one source, Nvidia may even be taking a loss on this deal. (Take the second sentence here with an extra portion of salt)
Not mentioned which generation of Tegra or which process node will be used or when the handheld is scheduled for release.
No mention of the home console, but we can speculate what that might be and who might provide the chipset for that one.

I'm starting to think my idea of what Nintendo is doing might play out.

Unifying both platforms will lead to possibly stronger sales of both the platforms. Play your game on the go, get home, play it on the TV with a little more polish.
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
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Now SemiAccurate is reporting Nvidia SoC for next Nintendo too?

http://semiaccurate.com/2016/05/12/guess-whos-silicon-is-in-nintendos-nx/

EDIT: Oops, didn't realize the article doesn't actually mention Nvidia. Gaf poster's recount


I'm starting to think my idea of what Nintendo is doing might play out.

Unifying both platforms will lead to possibly stronger sales of both the platforms. Play your game on the go, get home, play it on the TV with a little more polish.

Wouldn't surprise me. Nintendo doesn't make the best choices in terms of 3rd party devs, so they wouldn't really care if their platform wasn't x86 and porting was more difficult. Assuming it is a NV SoC, it would likely be ARM, right?
 
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railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
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Wouldn't surprise me. Nintendo doesn't make the best choices in terms of 3rd party debs, so they wouldn't really care if their platform wasn't x86 and porting was more difficult. Assuming it is a NV SoC, it would likely be ARM, right?

Nintendo seems to make a killing selling software. And their software library is segmented by their platforms. They have to development multi-versions of the same game. This is why Miyamoto said he wanted to unify them. I'm taking the leap claiming they'll sell perhaps one license usable on both platforms.

Pros of moving to unified platform:
lower dev costs for games while supporting two joint platforms
sell at profits from day 1 as console/handheld might have similar parts if not exact, just console won't have power limitations thus render higher resolution+higher frame rate
promote the sale of both platforms by allowing game licenses to work on both with one purchase

But that's me thinking out loud.
 

exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
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Nintendo seems to make a killing selling software. And their software library is segmented by their platforms. They have to development multi-versions of the same game. This is why Miyamoto said he wanted to unify them. I'm taking the leap claiming they'll sell perhaps one license usable on both platforms.

Pros of moving to unified platform:
lower dev costs for games while supporting two joint platforms
sell at profits from day 1 as console/handheld might have similar parts if not exact, just console won't have power limitations thus render higher resolution+higher frame rate
promote the sale of both platforms by allowing game licenses to work on both with one purchase

But that's me thinking out loud.

Totally makes sense, but that decision would likely significantly limit their ability to get AAA titles from 3rd party devs. Good or bad, they would need to continue to rely on their own software library. That is great, but puts a lot of pressure on their own teams to produce, and Nintendo hasn't been great at that of late. Most 'good' games are often recycled or re-released ones, with few and far between AAA Nintendo titles to choose from.

Its definitely a vision that you could sell, but would require more planning and execution within their hardware teams to align accordingly. Could be pretty cool though.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
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Totally makes sense, but that decision would likely significantly limit their ability to get AAA titles from 3rd party devs. Good or bad, they would need to continue to rely on their own software library. That is great, but puts a lot of pressure on their own teams to produce, and Nintendo hasn't been great at that of late. Most 'good' games are often recycled or re-released ones, with few and far between AAA Nintendo titles to choose from.

Yeah but they started to lose that support pretty much back in the N64 days and Nintendo hasn't gone bankrupt yet. They've also lost the least money when compared to Sony/MSFT.

If they open up to their devices to the android market there is another set of developers they can promote/use.

Probably just me, but I don't own my Nintendo consoles/handhelds for 3rd party titles. Even when they were more abundant (SNES days).

Its definitely a vision that you could sell, but would require more planning and execution within their hardware teams to align accordingly. Could be pretty cool though.

Whatever Nintendo does do, them trying to compete directly with Sony/MSFT was never something I felt they wanted/have to do. Their last Pokemon game sold 10 million copies. Even Halo can't do that anymore.

EDIT: Not to mention MSFT/Sony 1st party studios are using large chunks of money to barely sell ~3-4 million copies of games. Woof.
 

USER8000

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2012
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People do realise there have been rumours about a handheld component to the NX?? It could be that the the handheld uses Tegra and the base unit uses an AMD SOC.

However,if NX console is not handheld and uses a Tegra SOC, I am not sure if the CPU performance will be upto par and whether devs will care in porting games over to the console from the PS4 or XBox One. The Nintendo Wii U had the same problem with CPU performance.

GPU performance will probably be fine.

Either way,weren't some here saying Nvidia didn't want the console business due to low margins??

Seems a very interesting turn of events if they decide to power the next Nintendo console. Looks like they do care after all.
 
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exar333

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2004
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Yeah but they started to lose that support pretty much back in the N64 days and Nintendo hasn't gone bankrupt yet. They've also lost the least money when compared to Sony/MSFT.

If they open up to their devices to the android market there is another set of developers they can promote/use.

Probably just me, but I don't own my Nintendo consoles/handhelds for 3rd party titles. Even when they were more abundant (SNES days).



Whatever Nintendo does do, them trying to compete directly with Sony/MSFT was never something I felt they wanted/have to do. Their last Pokemon game sold 10 million copies. Even Halo can't do that anymore.

That is a big opportunity IMHO. Nintendo has the best 3rd party IP (by FAR) among MS/Sony/Nintendo. If they had a comperable system with their 3rd party games, they would be my #1 choice for a system. If they had just done that for the GC and provided a DVD player, they would have done fantastically.

These days, Nintendo purchasers do so because they are longtime Nintendo fans, getting for their kids or as an 'add on' to an existing system because 'Billy/Sally' still want to play the popular AAA titles with their kids.

There are a lot of ways to look at it, for sure.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
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That is a big opportunity IMHO. Nintendo has the best 3rd party IP (by FAR) among MS/Sony/Nintendo. If they had a comperable system with their 3rd party games, they would be my #1 choice for a system. If they had just done that for the GC and provided a DVD player, they would have done fantastically.

I disagree. Sort of how AMD is stuck as the bargain brand, Nintendo is always deemed the kiddie brand.

These days, Nintendo purchasers do so because they are longtime Nintendo fans, getting for their kids or as an 'add on' to an existing system because 'Billy/Sally' still want to play the popular AAA titles with their kids.

There are a lot of ways to look at it, for sure.

And this is where it extends. Most "popular" 3rd party games aren't kid friendly. You aren't going to enjoy a round of Call of Duty with your child. By the time that kid is mature enough (yes I know we all mature differently) he'll probably look at Nintendo as a child's product.

Considering the Allison Rapp issue, i don't think Nintendo is in a rush to shake off their family-friendly appearance. Games like Splatoon are dripping with kid-friendly graphics but at the core it is a damn good tactical shooter (if you get a good team of course).

I could be wrong, and Nintendo is dying to get more of the core/older audience. The biggest complaint the Wii U had from the circle of gamers I know was the price and weak 1st party catalog (Mario Wii U was an obvious re-touch of Mario Wii). We still haven't seen a proper Metroid/Zelda on the console. Two of Nintendo's biggest franchises.

To think Pokemon/Brawl/Kart 8, 3 titles were enough to change Nintendo's profits drought. And those games aren't exactly graphical masterpieces.
 
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