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railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
Actually I think Microsoft has been doing pretty well with the Xbox, especially in the 2nd half of 2016. Xbox actually has a higher attach rate than the PS4 does:
http://www.gamepur.com/news/22092-xbox-one-has-better-software-attach-rate-rather-ps4-ubisoft.html

Not to mention the extremely successful Xbox Live service.

Microsoft is far more in line with Sony than Nintendo in sales...

This article uses some funny logic - users spend more on Xbox version of games versus PS4 versions? That isn't how you calculate attach rate. Hell, I'd argue PS4 versions possibly, and most likely, cost less.

This quote makes me thing the author has an agenda:
PS4 fans are more willing to buy the console and let it in the dust rather than Xbox One's, and this could mean more casual gamers have Sony's console in the living room rather than Microsoft's.



Sources? I didn't think that Microsoft released their digital sale #s.

Want a couple?

https://www.google.com/webhp?source...espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=console software sales down

It's no secret software revenues have been going down for all console. 20-30% declines YoY? Sure the PS4 has a few home run quarters, but it doesn't offset the rest of the year or other consoles.

MSFT finally broke their hardware sales losing streak but only to the lose a month they've historically always won - November/Black Friday.

I own all the consoles (I'm a collector, love em) but I'm seeing a strong shift from once only console buyers to PC. Mostly because of longevity and backwards compatibility. Owners of the Bioshock Trilogy for console didn't get an HD/Remaster for free. Nor did owners of Dead Island or even Skyrim.

PC is starting to take a bigger bite out of console software sales and it's showing. Hell, MSFT/Sony are finally responding to Steam with their own huge more frequent digital sales. To which I say kudos! (Yet I still opt to buy all my 3rd party titles for PC, and that list continues to grow with each year/generation - even the once console stalwart Japanese devs are doing day1 PC releases for some major franchises.)
 

MrTeal

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2003
3,587
1,748
136
If you have a few home run quarters, how much of the rest of the year is left to be bad?
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
If you have a few home run quarters, how much of the rest of the year is left to be bad?

I meant since launch, so 3 years, 12 quarters, and most of the good ones were year end ones. More "YoY declines" than "YoY increases" for Console Generation 8. But, hardware sales are breaking records! (Well only Sony, MSFT might finishing this generation well behind X360, and closer to Original Xbox if Scorpio gets counted as a new console/hardware.)
 

Mercennarius

Senior member
Oct 28, 2015
466
84
91
I meant since launch, so 3 years, 12 quarters, and most of the good ones were year end ones. More "YoY declines" than "YoY increases" for Console Generation 8. But, hardware sales are breaking records! (Well only Sony, MSFT might finishing this generation well behind X360, and closer to Original Xbox if Scorpio gets counted as a new console/hardware.)

If you count Scorpio as a new console you should count the PS4 Pro as a new console as well..they are both of the same idea (both backwards compatible and come in the mid part of the consoles life cycles). Microsoft also states that Scorpio is not a new generation.

Also the XBox One has had a faster adoption rate than the 360 did so if it lives as long as the 360 did it is on pace to out sell it. Microsoft was estimated to surpass 30 million sales of the Xbox One by the end of this year. The 360 sold 84 Million over the course of 10 years.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
If you count Scorpio as a new console you should count the PS4 Pro as a new console as well..they are both of the same idea (both backwards compatible and come in the mid part of the consoles life cycles). Microsoft also states that Scorpio is not a new generation.

With the PS4 Pro only 3 years out of PS4, I'd think of it as a new revision. Scorpio is going to be possibly 4, with current estimated release schedule, if not longer. So if MSFT/Sony continue to do "refreshes" of their hardware say every 3-4 years are we still in Generation 8? PS5 in 2018 to fight Scorpio (because frankly Scorpio is going to be a HUGE jump in performance versus Pro was to PS4), does it still count as Generation 8 for Scorpio but Generation 9 for PS5? We're getting into murky waters now. I mean with Wii U being basically a faster Wii with a new screen is it still a generation 7 console? Hell, Wii was an OC'ed Gamecube, so is it technically generation 6? Is Switch ushering in Generation 9?

Also the XBox One has had a faster adoption rate than the 360 did so if it lives as long as the 360 did it is on pace to out sell it. Microsoft was estimated to surpass 30 million sales of the Xbox One by the end of this year. The 360 sold 84 Million over the course of 10 years.

Xbox1 is barely outpacing Xbox360. And with Scorpio/PS4 Pro outside of possibly "name" these consoles won't be around for another 3 years. Both will have replacements out, mostly like with MSFT first putting Scorpio as a new console regardless what they are saying now.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
I think what people are missing is that Switch isn't a console. It's a dockable handheld.
People here aren't huge handheld gamers. Despite the switch cons from a hardware perspective, it's faster than a wii u which graphics was not an issue for that console.

Art direction of Nintendo means they don't need as expensive hardware (unless they do stupid things).

So with that said, it's price to me. $250 I'll be excited but I won't instant buy. I may try to use a coupon, Visa checkout deal, or just wait til smash Bros since that's the only game I plan on playing
$300+ meh....
$200 I'll buy first, worry about games later
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
I think what people are missing is that Switch isn't a console. It's a dockable handheld.

Nope, this isn't aligned with Nintendo's own marketing message. That's the entire point of the discussion and why Nintendo marketing is failing hard because they are positioning the Switch primarily as a home console that happens to be portable. That means we are expecting $50-60 home console game prices and therefore all comparisons to XB1/Scorpio/PS4 Slim/Pro in the home console space are applicable. If the consumer has little to no intention using the Switch as a handheld outside his/her dwelling, it suddenly becomes a 1Ghz CPU + 0.157-0.393 TFlops $250-300 home console based on the latest existing information.

"While the Nintendo Switch is designed for play both in the home and on the go, Nintendo wants to be clear that it’s a home system first.

“Nintendo Switch is a home gaming system first and foremost,” the company told Polygon when asked if the system was going to impact the sale of the 3DS portable systems. “We have made no announcement regarding the future of Nintendo 3DS."
https://www.google.ca/amp/www.polyg...0/13347910/nintendo-switch-home-gaming-system

You can continue to cite only PS4 and their success. On the other side Nintendo and Microsoft - they aren't doing so well, you know the other 2/3 of the console market.

But thanks for supporting my point.

You've already been shown above that XB1's attach rates are at least as good as PS4's, if not better. Despite your insinuation that current consoles are dust collectors, hardware and software wise, the XB1+PS4 generation are shaping up to be one of the strongest/most popular generation of consoles yet.

The top 4 reasons consumers chose PS4 are all factors missing in the Switch:
http://time.com/3723953/console-buyers/

Nintendo has made no progress in any of these areas which means consumers who wanted XB1/PS4 will continue to want them in 2017-2020.

Unlike Sony and MS who have a vast gaming library of 1st and 3rd party titles and support their consoles for years even after they launch a new console, Nintendo forgets about its old consoles immediately. The last 12-18 months of Wii and Wii U's life-cycle, Nintendo couldn't care less about supporting those consoles. As a result, the true life-cycle of a new Nintendo console is really 3.5-4 years max (much less for the Wii U), instead of 6-8 years for the competitors. As a result, why should consumers buy a new Nintendo console when it's better to just buy it close to EOL in 2020-2021 when Nintendo has released every exclusive for it?

Unlike MS or Sony's 1st-3rd parties who continued pumping out games from 2005-2015 for PS3/360, the Switch risks being abandoned by most developers in the last 2 of 5 years of its life-cycle because: (1) N64, GameCube, Wii and Wii U suffered the same fate, (2) its hardware will be so outdated that it'll be too hard to do proper ports of 2020-2021 PS4/XB1/PC games, (3) nearly everyone will be gearing up for the 9th gen consoles.

Is Nintendo going to allow gamers to carry over the virtual console games they purchased during the Wii/Wii U eras?

Nintendo needs to turn marketing up to 11 to kids and teens and advertise the Switch as gaming on the go in grade school, high school, in the car, while camping, on vacation/beach, etc.

Nintendo needs to ensure supply meets initial demand. PS4 sold 1 million units during the opening weekend iirc. Nintendo can't afford another NES Classic inventory failure which harms their reputation.
 
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Reactions: Ancalagon44

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
“Nintendo Switch is a home gaming system first and foremost,” the company told Polygon when asked if the system was going to impact the sale of the 3DS portable systems.
You think an average consumer cares about that snippet in a Polygon interview?
Wait til actual marketing comes out and it comes out in the real world.
Xbox One was planned to use the Azure cloud server to boost its computing power until Gamers freaked out at having to always be connected.

Either way, I don't care about an interview, I care about whether I can game on the go, but also be able to game on a big screen at home. I can do this? It's priced at ~$250, it's more fun than I'd get out of an RX480 -.-
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
You've already been shown above that XB1's attach rates are at least as good as PS4's, if not better.

You should try reading that article before making any claims based on it. Hint: it's bad.

Despite your insinuation that current consoles are dust collectors

Here we go again, Russian taken someone's personal opinion and stretching it to a generalization. Why even bother debating/discussing something with someone who thinks you saying "my consoles are dust collectors" some how implies everyone beyond me feels the same. EDIT: Actually thinking about it, the article you probably didn't read to counter me actually states PS4 users let their consoles collect dust. Haha. So yet again you are supporting me point. Thanks

I mean, did you not see November's NPD?

  • Hardware November 2016: $723.8 million (down 35 percent) November 2015: $1.12 billion
  • Console software November 2016: $955.2 million (down 18 percent) November 2015: $1.17 billion
  • PC software November 2016: $27.5 million (down 28 percent) November 2015: $38.1 million [Steam numbers not accounted for.]
  • Accessories November 2016: $259.8 million (down 6 percent) November 2015: $277.1 million
I won't be surprised if December shows a decline also. If the quarter overall shows a decline. Just a continuing trend.
 
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Bacon1

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2016
3,430
1,018
91
  • PC software November 2016: $27.5 million (down 28 percent) November 2015: $38.1 million [Steam numbers not accounted for.]

Odd you didn't bold the 28% reduction in PC software sales which is more than the reduction percent wise, let alone total value (27mil vs 955mil for console).

Microsoft doesn't release their numbers just like steam doesn't (officially, people try to use steamspy / steamdb for estimates).

NDP aren't official numbers, they are estimations.

You are also ignoring the why for why the sales decreased. The big titles like BF1 launched in October not November like Battlefront last year.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
Odd you didn't bold the 28% reduction in PC software sales which is more than the reduction percent wise, let alone total value (27mil vs 955mil for console).

Why is that odd? My comment was about console sales numbers. PC sales have declined in NPD numbers for years due to digital transactions which they don't cover. It be more of an anomaly if PC sales increased.

Microsoft doesn't release their numbers just like steam doesn't (officially, people try to use steamspy / steamdb for estimates).

NPD is tracking digital sales for some publishers. Unless digital sales can cover the spread Halo 5 sold less than Halo 4, which sold less than Halo Reach. AAA titles have seen a significant decrease in sales on consoles. 1st party titles specifically.

NDP aren't official numbers, they are estimations.

You're point? Are you trying to invalidate NPD numbers?
 

Bacon1

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2016
3,430
1,018
91
You're point? Are you trying to invalidate NPD numbers?

You are acting like they are official sale numbers. Like you admitted, they don't track digital sales which is what I asked from you above, and you failed to provide them and instead linked to a bunch of random websites talking about NDP's numbers all trying to give their own estimates.

Want a couple?
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
You are acting like they are official sale numbers. Like you admitted, they don't track digital sales which is what I asked from you above, and you failed to provide them and instead linked to a bunch of random websites talking about NDP's numbers all trying to give their own estimates.

It's sad that when data that the industry uses to monitor it's health in the biggest market is invalided because someone doesn't like it.

And where did I said they don't track digital sales? Unless you interpreted me saying they don't have Steam data as they don't have ANY digital data.

But before you ask for a source, here are a couple
https://www.google.com/webhp?source...=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=NPD+tracks+digital+sales
 

Bacon1

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2016
3,430
1,018
91
Let me help you out there:

NPD is introducing a Digital Games Tracking Service that works at the point of sale in digital storefronts to track sales in the United States, broken out by SKU, the same as if the product was sold physically in a store. GamesIndustry.biz says NPD's digital measuring efforts have the support of Electronic Arts, Activision, Ubisoft, Capcom, Take-Two Interactive, Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment, Square Enix and Deep Silver. Notably, Bethesda Softworks and Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo's publishing divisions are not involved.
 

Ranulf

Platinum Member
Jul 18, 2001
2,411
1,312
136
As a result, why should consumers buy a new Nintendo console when it's Bette to just buy it close to EOL in 2020-2021 when Nintendo has released every exclusive for it?

Hell, you may not be able to buy discs for those games by the EOL of the Nintendo console. Its cheaper to buy them digitally. I gave up looking for retail disc versions of a couple of games. I'll buy them digitally if they end up at $20 or less. Of course, trusting that you can bring those games to the new console... yeah right. Hope you have them backed up on multiple drives for safekeeping.
 

antihelten

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,764
274
126
It's sad that when data that the industry uses to monitor it's health in the biggest market is invalided because someone doesn't like it.

The industry (as in Sony and Microsoft), doesn't use NPD number, since they have their own internal numbers that are far more accurate (it's quite easy for Sony and Microsoft to keep track of retail sales, since most games pay a per unit royalty fee, and digital sales are of course even easier to track).
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Nintendo Switch Straightforward Code Port For Multiplatform Games May Be Impossible If Leaked Specs Are Real – Rumor

On the Beyond 3D forums, former Ubisoft senior rendering lead and co-founder of Second Order LTD Sebastian Aaltonen shared more insight on how porting multiplatform games to the Switch may be complicated, if the leaked specs are the real ones.

"Around 50% of modern game engine frame time goes to running compute shaders (lighting, post processing, AA, AO, reflections, etc). Maxwell’s tiled rasterizer has zero impact on compute shaders. 25.6 GB/s is pretty low as everybody knows that 68 GB/s of Xbox One isn’t that great either. ESRAM is needed to reach good performance. But I am talking about the POV of down porting current gen games to Switch. Switch certainly fares well against last gen consoles, and Maxwell’s tiled rasterizer would certainly help older pixel + vertex shader based renderers. Too bad last gen consoles already got their last big AAA releases year ago. Easy ports between Xbox 360 and Switch are not available anymore. Xbox One is a significantly faster hardware. Straightforward code port is not possible. Content also needs to be simplified."

https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/nintendo-switch-speculation-discussion.59709/page-58#post-1959110

 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
NPD is tracking digital sales for some publishers. Unless digital sales can cover the spread Halo 5 sold less than Halo 4, which sold less than Halo Reach. AAA titles have seen a significant decrease in sales on consoles. 1st party titles specifically.

You went on a tangent on how PS4/XB1 are dust collectors in your household. When provided with great hardware sales, per console game attach rates and exclusive titles those consoles have had in the last 3 years, you went off citing total industry software sales for consoles using NDP, which we know doesn't track digital sales well.

Report: Worldwide Digital Game Sales Increase 13% in November to $6.7 Billion - News
The console market saw the biggest increase as sales grew 35 percent.
http://www.vgchartz.com/article/266...-sales-increase-13-in-november-to-67-billion/

The fact that some big titles like Halo 5, Watch Dogs 2, Deus Ex Mankind Divided and Infinite Warfare or Gears of War 4, etc. didn't meet expectations is irrelevant to what's being discussed. It's not the fault of MS/Sony that those games' sales flopped or that we didn't have Assassin's Creed game this year that usually sells well.

Most console gamers do not own a high-end PC nor do they buy 2-3 consoles in the same generation. Any gamer that buys nearly every Nintendo console will likely buy the Switch -- those sales are easy. Before we knew some key info about the Switch, many were wondering for 3-4 years how was Nintendo going to fix the major issues that plagued the Wii U? What was Nintendo going to do to bring back traditional home console gamers back? What was Nintendo going to do to get new gamers interested in PS4/XB1 to reconsider those consoles? How was Nintendo going to fix the lack of 3rd party support of the N64/GameCube/Wii/Wii U?

This new console appears to make all the same mistakes of the Wii U, except now it's a portable hybrid instead of just a home console. Nintendo just decided to compete in a different space than MS/Sony. In 2017-2019, new console buyers will have the choice between the most powerful upscaled/4K MS/Sony consoles, PS4 Slim with its exclusives and existing gaming library, 4K bluray of the XB1S with its exclusives and existing gaming library, and a portable Nintendo console that also can connect to the HDTV.

If specs don't matter, then why did 3rd parties and Nintendo abandon the Wii U so quickly? If specs don't matter, why is the Wii considered to be one of the worst modern consoles of all time?

The new generation of console gamers who grew up in the Internet age do pay more attention to what they are purchasing. With Digital Foundry, reddit, tech forums, Neo Gaf, negative perceptions can be magnified. Nintendo continues to assume that consumers don't pay attention or care when they see Big N abandoning their consoles so quickly compared to MS/Sony. 1-2 years before the Big N has a new console, they send the previous gen right into the graveyard. Sooner or later consumers will get fed up and just decide to buy a new Nintendo console 3-4 years after release when they get to see all the titles released on the console, instead of broken hyped promises.

2 biggest concerns I have are: (1) the longer Nintendo is out of the traditional home console space, the harder it will be to get back in and convert consumers who will no longer trust Big N, (2) the partnership with NV and Nintendo's renewed focus on mobile form factor will relegate Big N consoles into a perpetual cycle of underpowered/obsolete tech. With Sony seeing massive success of PS4 and trying to replicate this with PS5 and so on, and MS realizing their mistake of releasing an underpowered console, both of those companies seem to be treating consoles far more seriously than Big N is. Big N seems to be just happy picking up the rest of the market, selling hardware for profit, and moving on to the next console gen every 4-5 years.

Just like their $10 price for Super Mario Run and its annoying DRM, they seem to operate in their own reality nowadays. Instead of removing DRM, adding more content/levels to the game, they are just going to move onto something else it seems. It's this attitude and lack of commitment that's starting to hurt their brand image imo. As a result, the consumer is constantly asked to put their faith into a new Big N console based on promises Big N failed to meet in the last 3 console generations!
 
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beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,223
1,598
136
From Front Page:

6.2-inch 1280x720p LCD
2.5 to 6.5 Hours battery life
$299

$60 per game...

No info on SOC but sources expect it to be tegra x1 (eg. crap).

I really can't see what Nintendo is thinking here. This will fail even worse than Wii U, if that is even possible. Why would I buy that? I can just invest that money into a better smartphone and play games there. We also know that the 6.5 hours probably are for web surfing and not gaming. Zelda game should net you 3 hrs they say. So it doesn't even last medium long flight.

At that price I'm happily giving Sony/MS $200 more and get something usable.
 

dark zero

Platinum Member
Jun 2, 2015
2,655
138
106
The flagships will make sell some millions, but seems that that's it

The console is very underpowered. Even the iPhone 7 GPU. Is stronger and even now Adreno 540 would get near that performance.

Even more.. I fear that this console ends to be emulated in time record on phones.
 

Yakk

Golden Member
May 28, 2016
1,574
275
81
That is one expensive handheld. At that price I guess is not aimed at kids. Quite the change of strategy for Nintendo.
 
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