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Mercennarius

Senior member
Oct 28, 2015
466
84
91
Unless Nintendo does something dramatic soon, they are going to be completely irrelevant as a home console alternative.
For many gamers Nintendo has been irrelevant as a home console maker for the last few generations...each one getting worse than the one before it...The last time Nintendo genuinely competed with Microsoft/Sony on a hardware level was in the early 2000s with the Gamecube. Since then every new Nintendo has been far to weak to really compete with Microsoft or Sony.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
It will really boil down to what games Nintendo brings to the party. My PS4/Xbox1 are huge dust magnets right now. Their 1st party line up has been decent, but too spread apart to keep them in the limelight in my household. PC covers 90% of the games I play, and with CO-OP functions on some, even covers what my consoles would have normally covered.

Other night for Thanksgiving, had the family playing Mario/Luigi Wii U. I never actually realized Luigi Mode was more of a sudden death mode with some quirks that had us all laughing at our stupid deaths and suicide runs.

Looking at the market, PS4/XB1 are facing some of their worst software sales in history. Hardware numbers might be up, but time to face it - PC is eating their lunch. I'm not saying PC is outselling console software, but when something like the famous Halo series doesn't even make a dent - woof.

Devs/Publishers are starting to feel the pinch of these AAA-budgets. Meanwhile Steam is getting littered by games a dime a dozen. The market is really weird lately. Haha.

Mario Go launches, makes millions on day 1, is slammed for not meeting expectations. What are these investors/analyst expecting?

80M+ PS4/XB1 owners and statistics disagree with you. Sales may not be as healthy as in 2015 but they are still strong in relative terms. In just 3.5 years the PS4's software sales are almost at 370 million copies!

"Sony also noted that software sales across physical and digital are over 369.6 million copies sold."
https://www.google.ca/amp/venturebe...r-the-brands-strongest-black-friday-ever/amp/

That's an attach rate of 7.39 games per console, approaching SNES's lifetime. We are roughly just 1/2 way into PS4's life-cycle, without highly anticipated games like Yooka-Laylee, For Honor, Resident Evil 7, Death Stranding, Detroit Become Human, FF7 Remake, Cyberfunk 2077, Mass Effect Andromeda, Ghost Recon Wildlands, Horizon Zero Dawn, Uncharted 4: Lost Legacy, Tekken 7, Prey, LOUS2, GT Sport, RDR2, Days Gone, Nier: Automata, GTA VI having launched yet. There are many more to come. Not 1 of these titles is scheduled to release on the Switch!
http://www.gamesradar.com/new-games-2017/

and
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/feature/game/30-most-anticipated-games-of-2017-3625293/

At the end of the console generation 3DS only had an attach rate of 3.52, GameBoy - 4.22, GameBoy Advance - 4.63, Wii U - 5.01, DS - 6.12, N64 - 6.83, SNES - 7.72, NES - 8.08, Wii - 8.84, GameCube - 9.59.
http://m.ca.ign.com/articles/2014/01/29/these-are-nintendos-lifetime-hardware-and-software-numbers

After only 3.5 years, PS4 is already approaching the attach rate of SNES. This is impressive since a lot of the major PS4 exclusives haven't even released yet.

Only 3% of all PC gamers buy dGPUs priced at $449 or above and only 15% purchase at $349 and above according to Jon Peddie Research. The vast majority of Steam users have PCs that are slower than a PS4 Slim. Making statements that PS4/XB1 are dust collectors coming from a PC user with 780Ti/980Ti/1080 level of hardware is not a reflection of the types of consumers Nintendo is going after who tend to buy consoles.

Using the logic you've outlined, ANY Nintendo console released in the last 20+ years was appealing to you. My friends who own consoles don't cross-shop consoles and PCs. They compare consoles and Nintendo is doing little to correct the mistakes it made with the Wii and Wii U to bring these gamers back.

> Switch is weak, overpriced, and will require extra $ above base to get a well-rounded package with a pro controller and storage. Due to anemic hardware specs for a home console, it appears to be not significantly improved over the Wii U to support next gen's AAA multi-plats. The wrong launch timing means major AAA games that were in development in 2014-2016 and scheduled to launch in 2017-2018 will likely skip the Switch. It will be too costly to port a lot of these titles back to the Switch since the port won't be easy and the 1st-2nd year user install base on the Switch will be too small. By the time the Switch has a decent install base, it'll be extremely close to the launch of PS5/XB2 that most likely will be backwards compatible with PS4/XB1 gaming libraries -- a death sentence for the Switch towards the 2nd half of its life-cycle in 2020-2022.

The only core difference between the Switch and Wii U, is that the Switch can operate as a fully autonomous portable. Otherwise, this console shares most of the major criticisms that were leveled at the Wii and Wii U.

Due to the use of SDHC/XC cards, publishers will struggle to remain more attractive in terms of game sale prices compared to PS4/XB1 games since the manufacturing costs of 32-128GB flash cards don't drop that fast. To save $ on smaller cartridge sizes, and to account for the anemic TMU and memory bandwidth specs, developers will try to use lower resolution textures (which they'll claim isn't major compromise in the 540-720p undocked mode). The console will continue to struggle to be a proper home console replacement. I am thinking Nintendo simply doesn't care at this point -- they are just going after their loyal 3DS/New 3DS and Wii/Wii U customers and hoping this combined group and new generation of kids will be enough to get them 30-40M sales over 5 years.
 
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Mercennarius

Senior member
Oct 28, 2015
466
84
91
While Microsoft and Sony are moving towards 4K in their consoles, Nintendo's next gen system looks as if it will still struggle to achieve 1080P...
 

HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,726
1,342
136
SNES had more advanced graphics and audio(though this was really too different to be called plain superior)

I think you can say "superior" in terms of graphics and sound effects, but merely "different" (albeit more "advanced," as in requiring more hardware resources) in terms of music reproduction.

There's an interesting dynamic where the SNES has aged better visually, but in terms of music it's the other way around. The reason being that the SNES' larger colour palette was not as much as an advantage when analog video output just smudged everything together anyway. Now that we have cleaner video output, the smaller palette of the Genesis is much more noticeable.

On the other hand, SNES music hasn't aged very well. The sound output was always kind of muffled, which doesn't help anything, but in general SNES games sound like slightly below average MIDI. They're trying to ape real instruments, and doing a generally good job of it for the time, but it doesn't hold a candle up to modern standards. The Genesis' synthesizer on the other hand, still sounds like a synth. It's not a style of music that has been obsoleted several times over. The only thing really holding it back from modern standards is that its synthesis was never really geared toward percussion. For an example of great sounding Genesis music that stands up to modern standards far better than anything from a SNES:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn1-0ElaYhI&list=PL0E86AA386BD11845

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfCw4tx5AME

Looks like my entire post went completely over your head; and you ignored all the major points. The best looking SNES and GameCube games looked as good or better than Genesis and PS2 games.

I'm not sure about that for the SNES and Genesis. The best looking SNES games might look a bit better in stills because of the larger palette (although digital stills aren't indicative of how those games were experienced in the day with analog noise) but in motion Sonic 3 looks just as bit as good as anything the SNES has to offer. A fair number of the best looking Genesis games are like that, while the SNES for the most part lacked the CPU power needed to have a ton of fast action on the screen. Multi platform games almost always looked better on the SNES though.
 
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Headfoot

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2008
4,444
641
126
I think you can say "superior" in terms of graphics and sound effects, but merely "different" (albeit more "advanced," as in requiring more hardware resources) in terms of music reproduction.

There's an interesting dynamic where the SNES has aged better visually, but in terms of music it's the other way around. The reason being that the SNES' larger colour palette was not as much as an advantage when analog video output just smudged everything together anyway. Now that we have cleaner video output, the smaller palette of the Genesis is much more noticeable.

On the other hand, SNES music hasn't aged very well. The sound output was always kind of muffled, which doesn't help anything, but in general SNES games sound like slightly below average MIDI. They're trying to ape real instruments, and doing a generally good job of it for the time, but it doesn't hold a candle up to modern standards. The Genesis' synthesizer on the other hand, still sounds like a synth. It's not a style of music that has been obsoleted several times over. The only thing really holding it back from modern standards is that its synthesis was never really geared toward percussion. For an example of great sounding Genesis music that stands up to modern standards far better than anything from a SNES:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn1-0ElaYhI&list=PL0E86AA386BD11845

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfCw4tx5AME



I'm not sure about that for the SNES and Genesis. The best looking SNES games might look a bit better in stills because of the larger palette (although digital stills aren't indicative of how those games were experienced in the day with analog noise) but in motion Sonic 3 looks just as bit as good as anything the SNES has to offer. A fair number of the best looking Genesis games are like that, while the SNES for the most part lacked the CPU power needed to have a ton of fast action on the screen. Multi platform games almost always looked better on the SNES though.

Cant believe you didn't link the original Sonic soundtrack, classic!
 

dogen1

Senior member
Oct 14, 2014
739
40
91
Looks like my entire post went completely over your head; and you ignored all the major points. The best looking SNES and GameCube games looked as good or better than Genesis and PS2 games.

I'm mostly talking about nintendo cheaping out on the SNES CPU(or maybe it was because they planned on backwards compatibility.) The 68k in the genesis blew the 5A22 out of the water. Just look at all the multiplatform games(and exclusives even) that have tons of slowdown on SNES and none on Genesis. The genesis was able to pull off sprite scaling and rotation, even decent 3D in software without any coprocessors.

Very, very few games on SNES are able to throw as much stuff around on screen as the better stuff on genesis.

I think you can say "superior" in terms of graphics and sound effects, but merely "different" (albeit more "advanced," as in requiring more hardware resources) in terms of music reproduction.

Yes, superior graphics hardware(albeit less flexible in some areas like sprite sizes), and sound effects(not always though). Sound production was totally different. I like to analogize it to early 3D graphics vs 2D graphics. I think it was a bit premature.
 
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24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
39
86
Nintendo needs to die as a hardware company. Switch would have been much better as a Nvidia project from top to bottom with zero input from Nintendo. Nintendo should have shut up and just been the "first party developer" for Nintendo Shield.

Much sad.

What we have is a substandard form factor for a handheld, just so that Nintendo could cheap out on the SoC, Screen, Controller, etc.

Nintendo Switch is 75-100 USD Max worth of hardware that they are flogging for 300+ USD because Nintendo hates future viability with a passion.
 
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Byte

Platinum Member
Mar 8, 2000
2,877
6
81
Nintendo needs to die as a hardware company. Switch would have been much better as a Nvidia project from top to bottom with zero input from Nintendo. Nintendo should have shut up and just been the "first party developer" for Nintendo Shield.

Much sad.

What we have is a substandard form factor for a handheld, just so that Nintendo could cheap out on the SoC, Screen, Controller, etc.

Nintendo Switch is 75-100 USD Max worth of hardware that they are flogging for 300+ USD because Nintendo hates future viability with a passion.

Someone at nvidia must hire 24601 and make this ASAP! Maybe they'll even call it Shield!
 
Reactions: Headfoot and Phynaz

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
I feel like gaming is trolling me. What is happening....
Seriously....
Can someone explalin this to me easily? What does this mean? Is this slower or faster than a Wii U?
Can it play games? Like real games?
Will Vulklan/OpenGL really make this thing perform?

What's going on.... please....

I'll probably buy it though if the battery life is right and price is right. I'm not overpaying for old tech.
This should be a $200 device tops... instead it will cost so much I'll seriously consider just getting a PS4 Pro.

But I'll get it since I need a handheld =D
 

24601

Golden Member
Jun 10, 2007
1,683
39
86
Someone at nvidia must hire 24601 and make this ASAP! Maybe they'll even call it Shield!
Pretty sure Nvidia's involvement in the decision process is the only reason Nintendo didn't just go with something ridiculous like a Tegra 4.

Nintendo is the problem, as it always is with decisions that have to do with Nintendo hardware.

As many people have stated already, the fact that Nintendo Switch is even using something as high end as a Tegra X1 is the highest one can feasibly imagine Nintendo to be using in a handheld in 2017, given the hardware that they chose for the DS or the 3DS when they came out.

If the decision was solely Nvidia's however, the SoC in the Switch would obviously be at minimum the Tegra "Parker" given the time-frame of release of the Switch.

The use of 1020mhz clocked A57s means that it is unlikely that there will be straight ports from the PS4 Pro and/or the Microsoft Scorpio, as those have/will have at minimum a 5-6 2.1 ghz Jaguar cores on 1 island of 4 cores and 1 island of 1-2 cores.

With minimum porting, the optimal cpu to have on the switch would be something along the lines of 1.6ghz A57 so as to be able to run completely unoptimized (in terms of CPU) ports from PS4 at the same frame rates with simply reduced graphical fidelity.

The way the Nintendo speced out the switch's CPU means that any ports from PS4(Pro) or Xbox One or Scorpio will have to be reoptimized in terms of CPU usage (which means refactoring core logic of the game). That is something that companies simply do not tend to do for many ports.

Note, a 1020mhz A57 is most definitely more powerful than a 1.6ghz Jaguar core. The point here isn't that ports >>can't<< be done, the point is that ports >>won't<< be done if they require any effort whatsoever.
 
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dark zero

Platinum Member
Jun 2, 2015
2,655
138
106
I feel like gaming is trolling me. What is happening....
Seriously....
Can someone explalin this to me easily? What does this mean? Is this slower or faster than a Wii U?
Can it play games? Like real games?
Will Vulklan/OpenGL really make this thing perform?

What's going on.... please....

I'll probably buy it though if the battery life is right and price is right. I'm not overpaying for old tech.
This should be a $200 device tops... instead it will cost so much I'll seriously consider just getting a PS4 Pro.

But I'll get it since I need a handheld =D
At least is faster than the iPhone 7, however is slower than even the Xbox One.

And it could run easily all the games of PS4 if isn't for the phatetic ARM A57 cores on it.
 

dogen1

Senior member
Oct 14, 2014
739
40
91
Note, a 1020mhz A57 is most definitely more powerful than a 1.6ghz Jaguar core. The point here isn't that ports >>can't<< be done, the point is that ports >>won't<< be done if they require any effort whatsoever.

Where are you getting that? The only benches I've seen suggest that isn't close to being true.

Btw, ports will be done if a lot of people buy switches. Effort or not.
 

MarkizSchnitzel

Senior member
Nov 10, 2013
424
49
91
At the end of the console generation 3DS only had an attach rate of 3.52, GameBoy - 4.22, GameBoy Advance - 4.63, Wii U - 5.01, DS - 6.12, N64 - 6.83, SNES - 7.72, NES - 8.08, Wii - 8.84, GameCube - 9.59

Is this comparison meaningful in any way?
How was availability of games 20-30 years ago?
Could you impulse buy online?
Could you buy digital?
Weren't the prices higher, 80-120CHF in the 90's.

Not saying PS4 is not a big success, but I think a proper context is important.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Thanks for backing up my point.

Hardware is up, software is done.

You suggested hardware sales are excellent and software sales are very poor. This isn't true whatsoever when it comes to PS4. You are using the fact the the top 3-4 best selling games of 2016 didn't sell as well as 3-4 best selling games of 2015 to draw an incorrect correlation with PS4's software sales.

"On the software side, the PS4’s attach rate — the number of games sold per console — is growing. In May, when Sony announced sales of 40 million PS4 consoles, the company said it had sold 270.9 million copies of PS4 games at retail and digitally, for an attach rate of 6.77 games per system. As of yesterday, software sales totaled 369.6 million copies, bringing the attach rate up to 7.39."
https://www.google.ca/amp/www.polyg...7/13868506/ps4-sales-50-million-playstation-4

Nintendo continues to make mistakes on otherwise amazing products with mismanaged supply of the NES Classic to always online DRM of Super Mario Run:
http://www.polygon.com/2016/12/16/13982004/nintendo-problems

Is this comparison meaningful in any way?
How was availability of games 20-30 years ago?
Could you impulse buy online?
Could you buy digital?
Weren't the prices higher, 80-120CHF in the 90's.

Not saying PS4 is not a big success, but I think a proper context is important.

That's fair but the discussion was in regard to "poor or tanking software sales for current gen consoles." I proved that this assertion was false with data. The attach rates for PS4 are growing, and will continue to grow as a barrage of highly anticipated AAA games will be added to its already extensive library. This is just to illustrate the point that gamers continue finding PS4 very attractive in both hardware and software sales in 2016. I would have found XB1 data too but MS doesn't disclose info that detailed iirc.

Unlike the Dreamcast that launched with an innovative controller, online gaming, cutting edge graphics, the Switch is launching with none of those innovations, is likely overpriced and underpowered, and will release right around the peak of the growth stage of PS4/XB1. If anything, 2017 is going to be an even stronger year for MS and Sony.

The May 2015 NV Shield Android TV cost $199 with a controller.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9289/the-nvidia-shield-android-tv-review

Given NV's insanely high profit margins, and nearly 2 year time lapse (parts get way cheaper over time), for Nintendo to be selling the Switch at $249 with worse specs without a pro controller is more of a confirmation they are continuing to go with a strategy of making $ on the hardware. They should price the console at $199 base and $249 with the Pro controller and an SD card/game bundle.

Also, Nintendo needs to completely shift momentum to advertise the Switch as a 3DS replacement with HDTV out. When looking at this console strictly as a handheld with bonus TV out features, most of the hardware criticisms are forgiven. But then of course there are no concrete rumours that Nintendo was even working on a real home console.

Plain and simple it looks like Nintendo is just out of the traditional home console space. They seem to be betting on the fact that existing 3DS customers and a new generation of young kids who want a portable are going to generate most of the sales for them. It still boggles my mind Nintendo would ignore what is a 120-150M userbase of home console users like that.

On top of 50M PS4s, Sony is going to get another 10M console sales from December 7->March 31st, and Nintendo is going to do nothing to provide any competition in this space. It simply blows my mind that the company with arguably the most unique 1st party games cannot come up with a $350-400 traditional home console that has 3rd party and indie games of PS4. They simply gave up but refuse to acknowledge that lower sales of GameCube and N64 were related to their own stupid design mistakes, and not because the demand for a traditional Nintendo home console is low.

The worst part is, the more Nintendo stays uncompetitive in the traditional home console space, the more their reputation of abandoning the home console will be cemented. At that point, the loyalty of Sony/MS home console users over 3-4 generations will become waaaay too strong. Nintendo would need to sell the most powerful and the most game packed 2022 home console just to lure these gamers back. They don't seem to care.
 
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crisium

Platinum Member
Aug 19, 2001
2,643
615
136
I don't think Nvidia necessarily leaves them out of the competition, RS, they just need to 1) get vastly more creative in the dock and 2)open their wallets if it persuades Nvidia.

1) I'm no engineer, but I have to imagine there's a way that when the portable docks, the docking station somehow adds more available wattage and most importantly a better cooling system. Maybe it enables extra cooling already built into the Switch that's otherwise dormant. Maybe the Switch has a heat pipe that connects to a much more robust heatsink and fan in the dock. Maybe it's like those gaming laptops that already exist with liquid cooling on the end for docking (probably Nintendo wouldn't go that far).

Somewhere out there, there must be a solution for the dock to really make things interesting. Turning the improbable into the possible is what motivates well paid and highly skilled engineers. It's a challenge for Nintendo.

2) I already covered how MS and Sony both got ATi/AMD to use state of the art GPUs in their consoles - with features that didn't exist on desktop. Nintendo is a conservative company that has a war chest that it fears losing. So they were not willing to pay Nvidia to get a Pascal SOC, instead opting for what already exists.

I envision, in a world where Nintendo is willing/able to write a bigger check, the Switch may contain a custom 512 Shader Pascal running at 1GHz... when docked. Faster than Xbone. When portable it would have whatever combination of Pascal is similar to 256 Shader 20nm Maxwell at 307Mhz power consumption. They could outright disable 1/2 of the shaders and do a similar 256 shader at ~400MHz or whatever is the same wattage as currently.

This would leave a bigger gap between the portable and docked modes, but Sony already set the standard for 2 modes for all games, and MS will follow suit next year with a much bigger gap than Sony (MS moving from 896 shaders to a rumoured 3072 for Scorpio).

As long as a larger chip can properly downlock and be disabled to lower wattage drastically, if they can develop proper cooling they could have a full GP107 or even GP106 equivalent in the console that is only fully enabled when docked and heavily neutered while portable.

Or, just order what Nvidia already has even though its slow because you don't have to pay R&D and see no consequences in falling further behind the competition in TFLOPs.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
You suggested hardware sales are excellent and software sales are very poor. You are using the fact the the top 3-4 best selling games of 2016 didn't sell as we'll a single the top 3-4 best selling games of 2015 to draw an incorrect correlation with PS4's software sales.

You can continue to cite only PS4 and their success. On the other side Nintendo and Microsoft - they aren't doing so well, you know the other 2/3 of the console market.

But thanks for supporting my point.
 

Mercennarius

Senior member
Oct 28, 2015
466
84
91
You can continue to cite only PS4 and their success. On the other side Nintendo and Microsoft - they aren't doing so well, you know the other 2/3 of the console market.

But thanks for supporting my point.

Actually I think Microsoft has been doing pretty well with the Xbox, especially in the 2nd half of 2016. Xbox actually has a higher attach rate than the PS4 does:
http://www.gamepur.com/news/22092-xbox-one-has-better-software-attach-rate-rather-ps4-ubisoft.html

Not to mention the extremely successful Xbox Live service.

Microsoft is far more in line with Sony than Nintendo in sales...
 
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