No Child Left Behind is retarded . . .

[BaliBabyDoc]

CNN

When it comes time to take the standardized tests that the federal government uses to measure public schools, many of Harper's students at White Mountain Middle School merely pick answers at random, not realizing the potentially severe consequences for their school.

A child I examined last week was a beautiful little blue-eyed blonde with a thousand watt smile . . . and a one-word vocabulary.

"There have been low expectations for some of these children all along," he said. "And that's not because of mental abilities, but because of poor instruction received in the early grades. We need to challenge schools that these children can achieve. Sure, they will need an intensive program, but they can be brought up to grade level."
For more seriously disabled children, he said, a proposed change to the law would let 1 percent of all children in a district skip the grade-level exams and instead take a test tailored to their abilities. If they scored well on that alternative, it could be counted in their school's favor.

Depending on the study, mental retardation has a prevalence of 1-3%. By definition your IQ has to be less than 70 . . . but a kid with a 72 isn't likely to do very well on a standardized test. IQ isn't quite normally distributed but if 1-3% of the population has an IQ<70, a multiple of that will have an IQ of 70-80.

The take home is that every child can learn and every child/family SHOULD expect schools/teachers/politicians to do everything possible to help every child achieve . . . but this legislation is a pile of poo. In fact, one of Jim Jefford's rationales for leaving the GOP was the poor funding for Special Education.

 

[alchemize]

And the democrats solution to the low quality of education in our country is...

*drum roll*

Spend more money!

*note: for the record, I don't support either position. Home schooling and education competition, through vouchers, are my position.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

I wonder how 'Ol swimmer will take the news that you and who ever wrote that article don't like it.

IMO - "Special Education" should not be tested using the mainstream testing and should not be included in the results.

CkG

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
I wonder how 'Ol swimmer will take the news that you and who ever wrote that article don't like it.

IMO - "Special Education" should not be tested using the mainstream testing and should not be included in the results.

CkG

I agree ! In fact here in California unfortunately kids with server disabilities ( not just learning disabilities ) like autism are forced to take the same exit high school exam as general ed students with no help in order to receive a high school diploma. This is just plain absurd IMHO !

 

[Vadatajs]

First, get the retards (IQ <= 90) out of the regular classes. These kids hold up the real students.

Second competition is no panacea.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
I wonder how 'Ol swimmer will take the news that you and who ever wrote that article don't like it.

IMO - "Special Education" should not be tested using the mainstream testing and should not be included in the results.

CkG

I agree ! In fact here in California unfortunately kids with server disabilities ( not just learning disabilities ) like autism are forced to take the same exit high school exam as general ed students with no help in order to receive a high school diploma. This is just plain absurd IMHO !

Actually we don't agree then Anyone who wishes to EARN a High School Diploma should have to show a certain level of knowledge(ie Exit Exam). Those who do not have the required knowledge do not EARN one and must take action necessary to acquire the knowledge. Now as for the subject of mental retardation and handicaps - there are ways to handle that. My wife's sister is Down Syndrome - She stayed in the school system until she was 20 and "graduated" with her "class" but did not receive a diploma. She received a certificate of Attendance since she only has the mentality of a sixth grader.
The grey area comes with "learning disabilities" that are not really a "retardation". IMO we need stronger teachers in that area of schooling. Teachers who can help a child through the learning struggle and teach them not only the subject matter, but also how to learn. But again - there has to be a level of learning achieved in order to EARN a diploma. With out that level distinction a HS Diploma is worthless.

But as I said - those with severe disabilities(not in mainstream courses) should not be subject to the same testing and therefore they wouldn't be included in the scoring. However - this precludes them from receiving a HS diploma.

CkG

 

[SuperTool]

I think multiple choice tests should be banned.
The reasoning is far more important than the answer. US schools stress final result more than the reasoning skills. Being able to derive the final answer is more important than being able to memorize the answer.
Also, calculators should be banned in high school. There is nothing interesting in drawing a graph of a complicated function with a graphing calculator. If you were to draw it by hand, you would learn about limits, derivatives, roots, trigonometry, etc.

 

[Zebo]

Bali.

A child I examined last week was a beautiful little blue-eyed blonde with a thousand watt smile . . . and a one-word vocabulary.

I do. Is two words

 

[EXman]

First, get the retards (IQ <= 90) out of the regular classes. These kids hold up the real students.

Vadatajs = Insensitve A$$hat

You Moron if it wasn't for all the school systems being broke they wouldn't be there. And they shouldn't be there and they even do not want to be there but there is NOTHING else.

I think you've proven you Don't what the hell you are talking about. I thought Libs were PC? At least most of these kids although maybe not (or maybe) as smart as you have concern for others feelings. Something you have proven you do not. I pity you.

I'm so tempted to put you in my sig so peeps see what a turd you are but you'd love the attention I'm sure. :disgust:

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: EXman

First, get the retards (IQ <= 90) out of the regular classes. These kids hold up the real students.

Vadatajs = Insensitve A$$hat

You Moron if it wasn't for all the school systems being broke they wouldn't be there. And they shouldn't be there and they even do not want to be there but there is NOTHING else.

I think you've proven you Don't what the hell you are talking about. I thought Libs were PC?

I'm so tempted to put you in my sig so peeps see what a turd you are but you'd love the attention I'm sure. :disgust:

So you are against grouping kids with similar abilities together?

You think all classes should be taught at the speed of the slowest child in class?

 

[EXman]

Char can you read? read it again

if it wasn't for all the school systems being broke they wouldn't be there. And they shouldn't be there and they even do not want to be there but there is NOTHING else.

these kids need there own class but they fall through the cracks...

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

And the democrats solution to the low quality of education in our country is...Spend more money!
*note: for the record, I don't support either position. Home schooling and education competition, through vouchers, are my position.

The annual cost for early intensive behavioral intervention (EIBI) for autism is $60K. I'm currently a research fellow in pediatric neuropsychopharmacology so NIH pays my salary but if my position was private the market cost for my skillz is $120/hr. Do you have any idea what kind of training would be necessary for the "typical" school to effectively educate Special Needs children? The typical special ed teacher makes a salary roughly comparable to other teachers . . . take that salary and put a "1" in front . . . that's their potential fee-for-service earnings if they have skills.

In fact here in California unfortunately kids with server disabilities ( not just learning disabilities ) like autism are forced to take the same exit high school exam as general ed students with no help in order to receive a high school diploma. This is just plain absurd IMHO

Actually that label isn't very useful. The child I mentioned earlier has autism but her major problem is her severe MR (to date her scores are on the floor of most assessments). Anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3 of children with autism have MR but typically it is mild to moderate. For most of those kids, it's the autism NOT the MR that causes problems. For others (like the little girl I mentioned), it's the MR not the autism that's the greatest obstacle. A small minority of children with autism have savant skills while a significant portion have definitive above average skills in a particular domain. There's no way for most schools to navigate such issues without the expertise of child psychiatrist, child neurologists, developmental/behavioral pediatricians, and child psychologists.

I do. Is two words

Totally naughty . . . she's 5yrs 9mo . . . but she's going to be lethal in 20yrs. In the meantime, she needs AT LEAST 40K+ per year invested in her education. If she was 4 years younger I would say possibly TWICE that sum.

So you are against grouping kids with similar abilities together?

Due to the fluid nature of developing minds . . . it's almost impossible to maintain such a system of grouping. Invariably you misjudge a given child's aptitude b/c the majority of tools used by schools sux. Handicapping a child for several months by failing to nurture their talents may hamstring them for a year or more. State-of-the-art assessments require serious investment. Most school systems will go with "good enough" b/c that's all they can afford.

You think all classes should be taught at the speed of the slowest child in class?

There are various educational models that attempt to address this issue. Unfortunately, the typical public school cannot provide the flexibility necessary to maximally develop every child's talents. On the larger point, Leave No Child Behind may highlight the failings of select schools but in general will provide ZERO benefit in advancing the holistic changes needed in K-12.

 

[Mardeth]

I have an IQ of ~135 but I still consider myself retarded...

100 being average. Not sure if this was the same you have.

 

[KenGr]

Originally posted by: Vadatajs
First, get the retards (IQ <= 90) out of the regular classes. These kids hold up the real students.

Second competition is no panacea.

Children with IQ's between 70 and 90 are educable in normal classroom environments. Depending on the personality of the person, many of these people would not necessarily be percieved as subnormal in casual interaction. Appropriate education for these students makes the difference between someone who can function independently and someone who will need support their entire life.

I think that if you ask any teacher you will find that poorly behaved students are more of a problem than "slow" students.

 

[Jhhnn]

The term "MR" is a little vague for laymen, baby bali doc- flesh it out a little, OK?

 

[Martin]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
Also, calculators should be banned in high school. There is nothing interesting in drawing a graph of a complicated function with a graphing calculator. If you were to draw it by hand, you would learn about limits, derivatives, roots, trigonometry, etc.

You can say that again. I used a regular scientific calculator in HS and it still fscked me up badly. Once I got to university and found out that calculators were banned for all my math courses I had to relearn lots of stuff.


Thinking back, Newton's method for finding roots and differentials are the only things you really need a calculator for.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

And the democrats solution to the low quality of education in our country is...Spend more money!
*note: for the record, I don't support either position. Home schooling and education competition, through vouchers, are my position.

The annual cost for early intensive behavioral intervention (EIBI) for autism is $60K. I'm currently a research fellow in pediatric neuropsychopharmacology so NIH pays my salary but if my position was private the market cost for my skillz is $120/hr. Do you have any idea what kind of training would be necessary for the "typical" school to effectively educate Special Needs children? The typical special ed teacher makes a salary roughly comparable to other teachers . . . take that salary and put a "1" in front . . . that's their potential fee-for-service earnings if they have skills.

In fact here in California unfortunately kids with server disabilities ( not just learning disabilities ) like autism are forced to take the same exit high school exam as general ed students with no help in order to receive a high school diploma. This is just plain absurd IMHO

Actually that label isn't very useful. The child I mentioned earlier has autism but her major problem is her severe MR (to date her scores are on the floor of most assessments). Anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3 of children with autism have MR but typically it is mild to moderate. For most of those kids, it's the autism NOT the MR that causes problems. For others (like the little girl I mentioned), it's the MR not the autism that's the greatest obstacle. A small minority of children with autism have savant skills while a significant portion have definitive above average skills in a particular domain. There's no way for most schools to navigate such issues without the expertise of child psychiatrist, child neurologists, developmental/behavioral pediatricians, and child psychologists.

I do. Is two words

Totally naughty . . . she's 5yrs 9mo . . . but she's going to be lethal in 20yrs. In the meantime, she needs AT LEAST 40K+ per year invested in her education. If she was 4 years younger I would say possibly TWICE that sum.

So you are against grouping kids with similar abilities together?

Due to the fluid nature of developing minds . . . it's almost impossible to maintain such a system of grouping. Invariably you misjudge a given child's aptitude b/c the majority of tools used by schools sux. Handicapping a child for several months by failing to nurture their talents may hamstring them for a year or more. State-of-the-art assessments require serious investment. Most school systems will go with "good enough" b/c that's all they can afford.

You think all classes should be taught at the speed of the slowest child in class?

There are various educational models that attempt to address this issue. Unfortunately, the typical public school cannot provide the flexibility necessary to maximally develop every child's talents. On the larger point, Leave No Child Behind may highlight the failings of select schools but in general will provide ZERO benefit in advancing the holistic changes needed in K-12.

Heh, if you and people like you can stop being such elitist and do some free social work, we won't have the cost problem will we?

J/K, but seriously, there is really no quick cure for children with need for special care. There is the cost and there is the lack of people with the special skill. There is no way around it unless if we, 1) find out the cause for MR, autism and other problem and reduce the number of children with those problems, or 2) promote the programs that train people with specialized skills and produce more people to deal with those problem.

simple economy-supply and demand

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

There is the cost and there is the lack of people with the special skill. There is no way around it unless if we, 1) find out the cause for MR, autism and other problem and reduce the number of children with those problems, or 2) promote the programs that train people with specialized skills and produce more people to deal with those problem.

There's a lack of people with special skill b/c government's refuse to pay the costs to educate and compensate. Prevention is important but it takes A LOT of resources to get it done. Most of this groundwork starts with Schools of Public Health (maternal/child health, environmental science, health behaviors/health education) . . . don't look now . . . but these are often the low guys on the funding totem pole.

89% of all children with mental retardation have mild MR (IQ 55-69). They typically have JUST MR with no other problems. Unfortunately, this MR tends to be familial (80%) . . . as you can imagine it is problematic when the child has superior adaptive skills to the parent. Accordingly, it is easy to conceptualize why mild MR has a higher incidence amongst lower socioeconomic groups. Typically we can ascertain a cause in 1/2-2/3 of mild MR cases. In general, these kids are quite educable IF . . . and it's a big IF . . . a society dedicates sufficient resources to early identification and early intervention; in addition to resources focused on prevention (heavy metal exposure - EPA . . . oops they are being defunded) (nutrition - USDA/DHHS . . . oops they work for the farm lobby) (alcohol - FDA . . . oops they are beholden to commerce).

The relatively small number of children with severe MR are racially, economically, and geographically diverse. They also have multiple morbidities and are EXTREMELY expensive to support . . . for their lifetimes. Despite having identifiable etiologies in 2/3 of cases . . . they are not necessarily easier to prevent . . . with the notable exception of toxic exposures.

 

[EXman]

Bali you are very well spoken but your arguements lack passion and your sarcasm although right fails to encourage anyone to get off thier rears and write a congressman and/or administrator.

sorry this is close to my heart and I really feel that No positive government will EVER take place in the next couple decades.

What can I do Bali?

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

day late and dollar short Bush administration changes it's tune on exceptional children

Bali you are very well spoken but your arguements lack passion and your sarcasm although right fails to encourage anyone to get off thier rears and write a congressman and/or administrator.

If you think I'm sarcastic now you should have seen me when I was a kid. All of my compassion and concern is reserved for the children I treat. In fact I hate adults. I'm not looking for a career as a motivational lecturer. I could make $2K per day operating a Lasix machine (laser vision correction), half of that as private child psychiatrist, and then half again as a physician scientist, and then half again as academic development specialist, and then half again as a special ed teacher. To each his own.

sorry this is close to my heart and I really feel that No positive government will EVER take place in the next couple decades.

Our society can do whatever it feels must be done. Educating our youth is not important . . . at least it's not important that it be done well for everyone. No Child Left Behind is the best this administration has to offer . . . which is a shame. Then again the previous administration didn't put up much of a fight for significant education reform. Despite the retarded nature of Bush policy . . . at least he's put the issue on the agenda. If Bush loses some of the Dems may provide better leadership on education and if Bush wins . . . Hilary '04.

What can I do Bali?

I imagine every state in the union has special education outreach programs. There's always something you can do. It's just a matter of how much of yourself you want to commit to an endeavor.

 

[EXman]

No Child Left Behind is the best this administration has to offer . . . which is a shame.

from what I've seen education is a buzzword nothing more for ALL parties. They say "Education President" but nothing much happens.

 

[Gravity]

Education should be privatized. Otherwise the bureacracy will continue to consume these resources.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Education should be privatized. Otherwise the bureacracy will continue to consume these resources.

Have you ever heard of Edison? It appears to be a near total failure. In many cases, Edison is costing MORE than public management while delivering no substantive improvement in outcome.

from what I've seen education is a buzzword nothing more for ALL parties. They say "Education President" but nothing much happens.

I doubt anyone would want to be known as the "Non-education President" or in Bush's case the "Multiple degrees but otherwise Uneducated President".

 

[Medicated858]

Originally posted by: Vadatajs
First, get the retards (IQ <= 90) out of the regular classes. These kids hold up the real students.

Second competition is no panacea.

You're an idiot.