No intake fan okay?

nthydro

Junior Member
Dec 26, 2013
14
0
0
I'm looking at the Bitfenix Pandora case as an option for my next build. It only has 1 top exhaust fan (120mm). There is room in the front for 2x 120mm intake fans but I plan to use that space for a 240mm radiator for water cooling. Would it be okay to have no real intake fans and the single exhaust fan up top? Thanks!
 

Greenlepricon

Senior member
Aug 1, 2012
468
0
0
Uhhhhhh, are you saying you dont plan on using fans with your radiator?

I think he's saying it will serve as an exhaust and not an intake.

Intake fans are not exactly necessary, but I've never tried a build without them other than my htpc, which uses much less power than the average desktop. The vents on the bottom or back of your case should allow air to get sucked in due to the negative pressure. I can't say how badly the turbulence will be however. It might cause some of your temperatures to go up more than you like, depending on the rest of your hardware and what you have the cooler hooked up to.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,101
1,719
126
You mean a radiator with fan exhaust to case exterior. [Don't you, Green?]

I believe that any water-cooled system is better as a hybrid system which uses airflow to cool components without waterblocks. And I believe that fans favored for high static pressure for radiator application can be substituted with fans of less static pressure if the case pressurizes intake air. There may be drawbacks with this, but it depends on the sheer amount of CFM flowing through the case. If opportunities for higher CFM are less, pressurization could be less optimal. With hybrid use of both waterblocks and mobo-ducting, more likely better.

If total CFM are higher, then introducing case intake through a radiator may have negligible effect on other component cooling. Much less CFM, warmer case interior.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,495
12,367
136
The only problem with not running an intake is that you lose control of how air enters your case. You also lose some opportunities to direct airflow over motherboard components/RAM/whatever.

If that exhaust fan is good enough to move some serious air, you may not have any trouble. But if that thing isn't pulling air like a champ (and probably making a ton of noise), you could have a little trouble.
 
Last edited:

nthydro

Junior Member
Dec 26, 2013
14
0
0
Thanks for the answers guys.

Sorry for not being too clear. I'm not too familiar with water cooling works so I might be off...but if I mount the radiator in front as an intake, it would intake fresh air but blow hot air into the case right? What I meant was would it be okay if there were no other intake fans to pull in cool air?
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,495
12,367
136
Water cooling is really the same as using any old heatsink. It just adds an additional step when transferring heat from the source (your CPU/GPU/whatever) to the dissipative surface (your radiator). The water is useful due to its high heat capacity.

But.

When it comes to your radiator, you're moving heat from metal to air, and air has a poor heat capacity compared to water. You really have to push a large volume of air past the fins of your rad to remove any considerable amount of heat. Given a constant heat flux (that is, constant rate of heat moving through the cooling system and being removed from the radiator surface) and a high velocity for the air moving through your rad, it's quite probable that the temperature of the air leaving the rad won't be that much higher than ambient. If the air leaving your rad is really hot, then it's a good sign that your heating system is being pushed to or beyond its limits.

The problem with using the rad fans as intakes is not the temperature of the air entering the system, but the fact that you're moving heat into the system. If you have a bunch of other components, like screaming hot VRMs, trying to move their heat into the air filling the interior of the case, then pushing a bunch of extra heat into that system makes it fundamentally more difficult for those heatsinks to do their jobs. You could be blowing air 5C or 15C above ambient into your case, but that doesn't really matter if the +5C air is high flow and the +15C air is low flow. If the quantities of heat are the same, both scenarios ultimately present you with the same problem unless you're removing heat from the case at least as quickly as you are introducing it via the rad.

If your case is a windtunnel moving hundreds of actual cfms (not just estimated cfms on paper), then the rad blowing into the case won't hurt you much. You might even be able to pull it off with no exhaust fan if the rad fans are sufficiently aggressive. Still, there are plenty of good reasons not to do this. Deliberately blowing heat into your system just makes things harder. It is my understanding that most externally-mounted rads are meant to operate independently of the case airflow system, meaning you wouldn't use your rad as an intake or exhaust element. Also, lots of people with water cooling want to avoid the kind of noise that you'd be encouraging by running more-powerful radiator fans to accommodate any airflow setup featuring the rad as an intake element. Sure, some nutjob like me would put 40-50 dBa fans on a rad no matter what the circumstances or the number of fans, but that doesn't mean you have to do it.
 

monkeydelmagico

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2011
3,961
145
106
What GPU and CPU for this build? Closed loop AIO or custom water?

Nice looking case BTW. It's good that you are asking questions because smaller form factor builds can turn into noisy hot boxes easily.
 

Zardnok

Senior member
Sep 21, 2004
670
0
76
Thanks for the answers guys.

Sorry for not being too clear. I'm not too familiar with water cooling works so I might be off...but if I mount the radiator in front as an intake, it would intake fresh air but blow hot air into the case right? What I meant was would it be okay if there were no other intake fans to pull in cool air?
My thoughts are that you should use the two front fans on the radiator as intake fans and the single 120 in back for an exhaust. This would create a positive pressure inside the case and reduce dust build up. It would be pulling cooler external air across your radiator and maximizing your cooling efficiency.

If you ran both of your radiator fans as exhaust, they would be pulling warm air from inside the case and pushing through your radiators causing a reduction in cooling efficiency. It would also be the ultimate in negative pressure with air sucking in through every crack and hole. This would create some noisy turbulence and create massive dust build up inside your case and on your radiator. As your radiator fins become clogged, your cooling efficiency would really tank.

Again, my advice is two front as intake pushing cool external air across radiator with one exhaust to create positive pressure and minimize dust.
 

nthydro

Junior Member
Dec 26, 2013
14
0
0
Water cooling is really the same as using any old heatsink. It just adds an additional step when transferring heat from the source (your CPU/GPU/whatever) to the dissipative surface (your radiator). The water is useful due to its high heat capacity.

But.

When it comes to your radiator, you're moving heat from metal to air, and air has a poor heat capacity compared to water. You really have to push a large volume of air past the fins of your rad to remove any considerable amount of heat. Given a constant heat flux (that is, constant rate of heat moving through the cooling system and being removed from the radiator surface) and a high velocity for the air moving through your rad, it's quite probable that the temperature of the air leaving the rad won't be that much higher than ambient. If the air leaving your rad is really hot, then it's a good sign that your heating system is being pushed to or beyond its limits.

The problem with using the rad fans as intakes is not the temperature of the air entering the system, but the fact that you're moving heat into the system. If you have a bunch of other components, like screaming hot VRMs, trying to move their heat into the air filling the interior of the case, then pushing a bunch of extra heat into that system makes it fundamentally more difficult for those heatsinks to do their jobs. You could be blowing air 5C or 15C above ambient into your case, but that doesn't really matter if the +5C air is high flow and the +15C air is low flow. If the quantities of heat are the same, both scenarios ultimately present you with the same problem unless you're removing heat from the case at least as quickly as you are introducing it via the rad.

If your case is a windtunnel moving hundreds of actual cfms (not just estimated cfms on paper), then the rad blowing into the case won't hurt you much. You might even be able to pull it off with no exhaust fan if the rad fans are sufficiently aggressive. Still, there are plenty of good reasons not to do this. Deliberately blowing heat into your system just makes things harder. It is my understanding that most externally-mounted rads are meant to operate independently of the case airflow system, meaning you wouldn't use your rad as an intake or exhaust element. Also, lots of people with water cooling want to avoid the kind of noise that you'd be encouraging by running more-powerful radiator fans to accommodate any airflow setup featuring the rad as an intake element. Sure, some nutjob like me would put 40-50 dBa fans on a rad no matter what the circumstances or the number of fans, but that doesn't mean you have to do it.

Thanks for the thorough response and informative response, but I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting. Are you advising me to mount the radiator externally as in outside of the case? I'm looking to get an AIO CLC like Enermax Liqtech 240, Kraken X61 or Swiftech H220.
 

nthydro

Junior Member
Dec 26, 2013
14
0
0
What GPU and CPU for this build? Closed loop AIO or custom water?

Nice looking case BTW. It's good that you are asking questions because smaller form factor builds can turn into noisy hot boxes easily.

Most likely going to get i5-4690K and GTX 970. I'm going for a closed loop system since I have no experience with water cooling.

Heat is definitely a concern for me. I've only done full size atx builds so this is my first time doing a micro-atx build. I can imagine it getting too crammed inside and having temp issues. Should I just look for a different case with more ventilation / fans?
 

nthydro

Junior Member
Dec 26, 2013
14
0
0
My thoughts are that you should use the two front fans on the radiator as intake fans and the single 120 in back for an exhaust. This would create a positive pressure inside the case and reduce dust build up. It would be pulling cooler external air across your radiator and maximizing your cooling efficiency.

If you ran both of your radiator fans as exhaust, they would be pulling warm air from inside the case and pushing through your radiators causing a reduction in cooling efficiency. It would also be the ultimate in negative pressure with air sucking in through every crack and hole. This would create some noisy turbulence and create massive dust build up inside your case and on your radiator. As your radiator fins become clogged, your cooling efficiency would really tank.

Again, my advice is two front as intake pushing cool external air across radiator with one exhaust to create positive pressure and minimize dust.

Thanks for the help.

I think your suggestion seems like the best option with this particular case. Very interesting what you said about positive pressure being better. I know some people say negative pressure is better. It's a bit confusing for me haha. But you're right about having the radiator fans intake air for maximum performance. I guess it's a matter of prioritizing cpu cooling vs overall system cooling? Now that I look at it, the case design doesn't seem to have much in terms of ventilation for air. I'm not sure where the air is going to intake in the front since there's no visible vents or mesh there.

Would it be better to just get a different case with more options for CLC? What is the ideal configuration for an AIO CLC? Rear or top mounted? I'm assuming exhaust would be the only options if its rear or top mounted. My other option for a case is the Aerocool Cube. Which has more options:

Front - 120mm x1 or 140mm x1 or 200mm x1
Top - 120mm x2 or 140mm x2 (Optional)
Rear - 120mm x1 or 140mm x1

Would this case be a lot better for cooling?
 
Last edited:

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,495
12,367
136
Thanks for the thorough response and informative response, but I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting. Are you advising me to mount the radiator externally as in outside of the case? I'm looking to get an AIO CLC like Enermax Liqtech 240, Kraken X61 or Swiftech H220.

I was actually suggesting an external mount, though reconsidering the products you mentioned, maybe that would not be technically feasible. If you can get the rad on the case exterior, more power to you.

I agree that using the rad as exhaust could be a poor decision, unless you are comfortable cleaning your rad + fans frequently.

Given your listed components, you may not have a lot of trouble with hot VRMs, but I still recommend a strong exhaust fan to compensate for blowing air into the case. You will be putting your motherboard heatsinks, RAM heatspreaders, and (to a lesser extent) your video card cooling solution behind the 8-ball, by a little bit. Positive pressure is okay for dust control, but it's still going to get in there. And it will get on your rad.
 

monkeydelmagico

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2011
3,961
145
106
4690k under a 240mm AIO isn't going to dump alot of heat into the case even with the radiator on the front. Do you run distributed computing, alot of benchmarks for long periods of time, or other CPU intensive processes?
 

Greenlepricon

Senior member
Aug 1, 2012
468
0
0
As far as closed loop coolers go, I've actually had pretty good success with some of the 120mm rads, assuming that you're not going to hook one up to the gpu as well. A larger rad will almost always result in lower temps, but honestly if you aren't going for massive overclocks it probably won't matter too much. The main arguments for CLCs are if you don't have space for the heatsink and/or need to vent the air straight out of your case. Or you could just do it for fun as many people have done, myself included. If none of these apply to you, air cooling can be easier, cheaper, and about as effective. If you're just doing it for the hell of it, it may be worth looking up some smaller radiators and seeing how those work for you.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,495
12,367
136
4690k under a 240mm AIO isn't going to dump alot of heat into the case even with the radiator on the front. Do you run distributed computing, alot of benchmarks for long periods of time, or other CPU intensive processes?

It depends on how far he overclocks it, and how much extra voltage he applies in the process. Worst-case scenario(Prime95 28.5, or some other AVX2 workload) will probably be 100-150W of heat entering the case, depending on voltage.
 

lenjack

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,706
7
81
Try it both ways. For some time, I had an intake fan. On a whim, I removed it. Result...same temps,,, and quiter. ymmv.
 
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