No Mantle on Xbox One

[smackababy]

Oh look another thread people don't understand what Mantle or an API is...

 

[0___________0]

Mantle was developed based on the Xbox One's API's, not the other way around. Anand did a full article about it and an update in the 280X review. Maybe read it:



http://www.anandtech.com/show/7400/the-radeon-r9-280x-review-feat-asus-xfx/2

Ryan Smith's unsubstantiated opinion is now a fact? Some of the stuff he said isn't even accurate. I addressed that article in the mantle thread and predicted AMD's API wouldn't be on either of the next gen consoles and that it has nothing to do with the API's on the consoles.

MS develops their own graphics API, D3D, Mantle was not a base, it was never on the XB1, AMD never designed the API used for it. And yes, the XB1 has DX, no it isn't the same as what we have on the PC, yes the feature sets are almost identical. It's completely irrelevant that they aren't the same, the collection of API's available on the XB1 are still called DX. No one has said it's exactly the same as what's on a PC, doesn't matter that the functions you're calling behave differently, it's still DX cuz that's what MS named it.

All of this "low level" marketing hype being thrown around is relative. No one is writing machine code for 90% of their engine. People act like there's some magic involved, you aren't writing nothing but asm. The existence of the API means you aren't writing "to the metal", the API is managing stuff for you, it's doing the communication with the hardware, albeit efficiently on the consoles. Both the PS4 and XB1 have drivers for their graphics API's, no coding to the metal. The real difference is primarily that on a PC you have all kinds of crap, user mode and kernel mode drivers, costly changes for the CPU to switch, a massive HAL, obese drivers, D3D doesn't permit you do everything you'd like to, etc. The consoles do offer lower level access, but inefficiency and whatnot along with D3D maintaining strict compatibility is the limiting factor on the PC.

Mantle just like the proprietery API's is able to bypass the abstraction layer and do work directly in the GPU.

It's no crime to conclude that AMD will have a HAL; because they're aren't to keep selling the same GCN 1.0 GPU's for the next 100 years. When they release new GPU's, they need the HAL to preserve compatibility. That's why it's there in the first place, so that you can write and forget. If AMD changes their architecture without a HAL there's going to be problems.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Sounds more like dismantled to me.

 

[SimianR]

Uhh this "announcement" or discovery is pretty silly. Did anyone think PS4/XB1 would "support" mantle? Why would they need to? They already have their own API's. If anything, Mantle is probably fairly similar to the XB1 API and AMD is using Mantle as an easy way to easily port console games to the PC and get similar performance gains.

 

[5150Joker]

They want to be the slower console it seems. Once the ps4 starts to fully utilize Mantle we will see them immediately change their minds. It wont be that long before they say "its compatible now". PS4 will be getting smooth frame rates while Xbox1 chugs and stutters in battle scenes. Mantle allows for better core threading and the rest with the graphics card. DirectX in most cases slows down fps performance when multi-threading mode is enabled. Shooting themselves in the foot locking themselves out. Xbox1 will be almost twice as slow as the PS4 if they don't change their mind.

PS4 will be faster because it has a much better GPU, not because of an API.

 

[wasabiman123]

Mantle is transposing how developers interact with hardware for consoles (both are using GCN) to PC, I can't believe people don't get this is something both consoles are employing. It's not a buzzword, it just means they're using less software abstraction...

 

[desprado]

PS4 will be faster because it has a much better GPU, not because of an API.

Yup.Same thing which Fanboy dont understad.

 

[Vesku]

"Other graphics APIs such as OpenGL and AMD’s Mantle are not available on Xbox One. "

Hmmm, Microsoft APIs will be the only way to code for the Xbox One? Shocking!

Microsoft's reputation for controlling the core tools used to develop for their software remains intact, it seems.

 

[Imouto]

Looks like Microsoft is making bad decisions nonstop lately.

Mantle announcement by Sony in 3, 2, 1...

 

[desprado]

Looks like Microsoft is making bad decisions nonstop lately.

Mantle announcement by Sony in 3, 2, 1...

no they wont because it just developed for PC

 

[ShintaiDK]

And all the attacks I got from the fanboys when i said no Mantle for the Xbox One.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Xbox One uses "regular" DX11.2.

Its simply an overhyped statement on how bad DX11.2 is. Just like the Mantle hype that is now coming down hard.

 

[sniffin]

Xbox One uses "regular" DX11.2.

Makes no sense that they would "regular" DX11.2. Just like how the 360's directx wasn't really directx as we know it. If they did that the PS4 would roll over it with a more specialized API.

 

[tulx]

Xbox One uses "regular" DX11.2.

Its simply an overhyped statement on how bad DX11.2 is. Just like the Mantle hype that is now coming down hard.

I think you don't get the point of Mantle - Xbox One doesn't need mantle, nor does the PS4. They already have very low level APIs, basically "coding to the metal" - the Mantle is there to bring these advantages to the GCN architecture, which is used in both consoles, on the PC.
All next-gen console games will be coded for GCN exclusively and Mantle will allow GCN GPUs in PCs take advantage of this.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Makes no sense that they would "regular" DX11.2. Just like how the 360's directx wasn't really directx as we know it. If they did that the PS4 would roll over it with a more specialized API.

Xbox360 used something in between DX9 and DX10 due to the hardware and such of the time. Xbox One uses 11.2.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I think you don't get the point of Mantle - Xbox One doesn't need mantle, nor does the PS4. They already have very low level APIs, basically "coding to the metal" - the Mantle is there to bring these advantages to the GCN architecture, which is used in both consoles, on the PC.
All next-gen console games will be coded for GCN exclusively and Mantle will allow GCN GPUs in PCs take advantage of this.

No.

 

[SiliconWars]

Why are people still getting this wrong? Mantle was designed for PC's, not consoles. Consoles already have their own "to the metal" API so Mantle would be superflous.

The link to consoles is that games developed on consoles will be much easier to port to GCN using Mantle. Think about the wait we have for GTA V on the PC compared to consoles - in future cases there is no reason why it would be available on PC at the same time (on AMD cards). This in itself is a near death blow for Nvidia - if AMD can convince devs to port games to GCN at the same time as the console versions launch then Nvidia is all but finished.

 

[3DVagabond]

I think you don't get the point of Mantle - Xbox One doesn't need mantle, nor does the PS4. They already have very low level APIs, basically "coding to the metal" - the Mantle is there to bring these advantages to the GCN architecture, which is used in both consoles, on the PC.
All next-gen console games will be coded for GCN exclusively and Mantle will allow GCN GPUs in PCs take advantage of this.

This^

Mantle isn't for consoles to use. It's for PC's.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Some people are still in denial that AMD APUs are powering both Xbone and PS4.

It is obvious that Mantle, something AMD announced for the PC and not the consoles, isn't available for the consoles.

What Mantle is, is a way for developers utilizing the same programming to metal they use in consoles because that is the same metal powering AMD PC GPUs.

Of course some people probably believe that somehow AMD GCN GPUs in the consoles don't utilize the same calls and functions the PC GCN GPUs do.

There is nothing to do but wait until everything is officially announced because some people only see it when it hits them.

 

[sontin]

Why are people still getting this wrong? Mantle was designed for PC's, not consoles. Consoles already have their own "to the metal" API so Mantle would be superflous.

The link to consoles is that games developed on consoles will be much easier to port to GCN using Mantle. Think about the wait we have for GTA V on the PC compared to consoles - in future cases there is no reason why it would be available on PC at the same time (on AMD cards). This in itself is a near death blow for Nvidia - if AMD can convince devs to port games to GCN at the same time as the console versions launch then Nvidia is all but finished.

Lolwut?! :\
The reason why GTA 5 comes out on the pc much later is a political decision made by Rockstar.
Batman:AO, Call of Duty:Ghost, BF4 (without Mantle), Watch Dogs... will be launched at the same time.

And here is a statement from AMD about Mantle and consoles:

“What Mantle creates for the PC is a development environment that’s *similar* to the consoles, [...] The console connection is made [...]

http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/am..._exclusive_to_pc_not_present_on_xbox_one.html

 

[3DVagabond]

Some people are still in denial that AMD APUs are powering both Xbone and PS4.

It is obvious that Mantle, something AMD announced for the PC and not the consoles, isn't available for the consoles.

What Mantle is, is a way for developers utilizing the same programming to metal they use in consoles because that is the same metal powering AMD PC GPUs.

Of course some people probably believe that somehow AMD GCN GPUs in the consoles don't utilize the same calls and functions the PC GCN GPUs do.

There is nothing to do but wait until everything is officially announced because some people only see it when it hits them.

If it's bad now, wait until it actually hits on PC.

 

[SiliconWars]

Lolwut?! :\
The reason why GTA 5 comes out on the pc much later is a political decision made by Rockstar.
Batman:AO, Call of Duty:Ghost, BF4 (without Mantle), Watch Dogs... will be launched at the same time.

So two games that Nvidia has a hand in (or is it 3?) and BF4 which is a PC game first and foremost.

What about all the games that are console first and PC later? The reason for that is nearly always time to market. With Mantle, AMD is giving devs the tool to get their console games ported to PC much faster.

 

[ShintaiDK]

So two games that Nvidia has a hand in (or is it 3?) and BF4 which is a PC game first and foremost.

What about all the games that are console first and PC later? The reason for that is nearly always time to market. With Mantle, AMD is giving devs the tool to get their console games ported to PC much faster.

Port it to what, a 10% minority? LOL....

 

[NTMBK]

Even if it's not the exact same API, I'd expect it to be damn close to the XBone "low level" API. They're both targeting the same GCN architecture. And an algorithm written to map well to GCN on the console low level API will still map well to GCN on Mantle, even if there are minor changes required in the porting.

The main problem will probably be memory management- I'm not sure how elegantly they'll be able to handle that on the dGPUs.

 

[sandorski]

Copy/Paste from a similar thread, so mostly Offtopic, but the first point pertains to this thread


Speculation is fun and I can't bite my tongue anymore...so here are my speculations about Mantle..yay

1) Offtopic from this thread, but part of another recent thread re: Mantle on XBox1 - Microsoft itself won't be supporting Mantle, but it will be supported by AMD. Only exception would be if MS decided to forbid it being used, which seems unlikely IMO.

2) Performance - Unknown, but likely very significant for some particular tasks. Possibly no difference for other tasks.

3) Implementation/Usage - I suspect it will be used more and more as the XBox 1 and PS4 get longer in the tooth and as games get more graphically demanding. Given the expected disadvantages of the XBox1, I suspect it will be utilized earlier on the XBox1 than on PS4.

4) Frostbite, BF4, and AMD - AMD may have Paid $ to have it showcased. However, I suspect the real motivation involved just needing a partner to co-develop it. A way to work through the Bugs and/or have direct feedback from those who will be Coding/Implementing it.

Time will tell what it is, what affect it has, who uses it, etc.