Even if it's not the exact same API, I'd expect it to be damn close to the XBone "low level" API. They're both targeting the same GCN architecture. And an algorithm written to map well to GCN on the console low level API will still map well to GCN on Mantle, even if there are minor changes required in the porting.
The main problem will probably be memory management- I'm not sure how elegantly they'll be able to handle that on the dGPUs.
Copy/Paste from a similar thread, so mostly Offtopic, but the first point pertains to this thread
Speculation is fun and I can't bite my tongue anymore...so here are my speculations about Mantle..yay
1) Offtopic from this thread, but part of another recent thread re: Mantle on XBox1 - Microsoft itself won't be supporting Mantle, but it will be supported by AMD. Only exception would be if MS decided to forbid it being used, which seems unlikely IMO.
Mantle exist to leverage the consoles optimization.
Consoles are already optimized for AMD.
Ergo there is no need for Mantle in the consoles and that is the reason Mantle was announced for the PC.
Hmm, could be. Makes sense too, has this been explicitly stated by AMD or conjectured by someone?
When a fan asked AMD about this whole thing, AMD confirmed that Mantle is not in consoles, and will be an exclusive API for the PC:
“What Mantle creates for the PC is a development environment that’s *similar* to the consoles, which already offer low-level APIs, close-to-metal programming, easier development and more (vs. the complicated PC environment). By creating a more console-like developer environment, Mantle: improves time to market; reduces development costs; and allows for considerably more efficient rendering, improving performance for gamers. The console connection is made because next-gen uses Radeon, so much of the programming they’re doing for the consoles are already well-suited to a modern Radeon architecture on the desktop; that continuum is what allows Mantle to exist.”
MS also didn't say Mantle isn't the low level API of Xbone.
Other graphics APIs such as OpenGL and AMDs Mantle are not available on Xbox One.
Only misinformed people (slides available at the announcement were clear) and trolls said Mantle was in the consoles.
What was said by everyone else is that Mantle is the low level API of the consoles.
When a fan asked AMD about this whole thing, AMD confirmed that Mantle is not in consoles, and will be an exclusive API for the PC:
“What Mantle creates for the PC is a development environment that’s *similar* to the consoles, which already offer low-level APIs, close-to-metal programming, easier development and more (vs. the complicated PC environment). By creating a more console-like developer environment, Mantle: improves time to market; reduces development costs; and allows for considerably more efficient rendering, improving performance for gamers. The console connection is made because next-gen uses Radeon, so much of the programming they’re doing for the consoles are already well-suited to a modern Radeon architecture on the desktop; that continuum is what allows Mantle to exist.”
So there you have it everyone. No Mantle on consoles. Not a bad thing as the architecture of a console allows developers to ‘code to the metal’ even by using DX11.x, something that is obviously not possible on the PC.
Again, MS said Mantle isn't available on the Xbone but AMD never claimed it was.
MS didn't say Mantle isn't the low level calls/API that allows close to the metal access on the Xbone and didn't say calls using the Mantle API aren't compatible with Xbone (because they are since GCN is GCN, be it in the consoles or the PC, so if a call work on the Xbone it works on the PC).
Please just stop embarassing yourself and read about the following topics before posting more:
1) What is game engine
2) Game engine rendering backends
3) Graphics framework
4) Driver if applicable for platform
5) GPU hardware architecture.
Just spewing random selection of things(GCN, Mantle, Frostbite etc) from these topics makes no sense...
What I still do not get with Mantle is the fact that close to metal programming is made possible in consoles due to a fixed hardware profile.
In the PCs, even just inside AMDs own lineup we're going to see many variants of the same technology, to me it seems like the benefits of this design have to be inherently limited, if AMD want to change their GPU architecture in future they'll have to make all sorts of changes to mantle to keep it compatible.
Mantle to my knowledge was never even announced for the consoles, and I can't see any reason why they'd use it, whatever propitiatory APIs they have are almost certainly as least, if not more efficient.
http://vr-zone.com/articles/gliding-obscurity-consoles-mantles-crust/60434.html
VR Zone's on the subject.
Well, this is sad. If Xbox 1 doesn't use it, PS4 won't on games that are on both. (and that's why my son won't see big differences on PS4 over Xbox 1 either- they'll code to common level of performance, not PS4 and Xbox 1 level graphics)
As consoles won't use MANTLE, PC games will be like PhysX for adoption.
I'm OK with that if AMD keeps up their end of the bargain and does the work/spends the money to get it in a few games a year.
I game on a 25X16 Dell 3007 and a 7970. If MANTLE can get me 25X16 4X MSAA in some next gen games a GTX780 can't, that would be a definite hot button for me.
Finally, in an unexpected move, Microsoft also used the blog to quickly address the subject of AMDs Mantle API, specifically saying that the Xbox One doesnt support it nor OpenGL. The fact that Mantle isnt supported comes as no surprise Xbox One already has its own low level constructs versus the still in development Mantle but we werent expecting Microsoft to comment on the matter since they arent involved in the development of Mantle. Though this unfortunately doesnt shed any further light on the big question of just what Mantle adopts from the low-level programming constructs in Direct3D 11.x.
Picking up from where we left off with Microsoft's blog post on the state of Direct3D, AMD has released their own short statement through Twitter expanding on Microsoft's blog post with respect to Mantle. Essentially reiterating their design goals for Mantle, AMD laid out why Mantle isnt in the console (it already has a low level API) and how they intend for Mantle to bridge the gap with console code. Strictly speaking there isnt any new information here regarding Mantle, but it does serve to provide a short and simple description of Mantle straight from AMD.
Mantle is NOT in consoles. What Mantle creates for the PC is a development environment that's *similar* to the consoles, which already offer low-level APIs, close-to-metal programming, easier development and more (vs. the complicated PC environment). By creating a more console-like developer environment, Mantle: improves time to market; reduces development costs; and allows for considerably more efficient rendering, improving performance for gamers. The console connection is made because next-gen uses Radeon, so much of the programming they're doing for the consoles are already well-suited to a modern Radeon architecture on the desktop; that continuum is what allows Mantle to exist. ^RH
Of course the big question remains unanswered: just how similar Mantle is to the Xbox One's low level API constructs? AMD has laid out a strong case for why it's important to make the porting of code from the console as easy as possible, and in the process left a number of hints indicating that Mantle should be very similar, including committing to supporting Direct3D's High Level Shader Language (HLSL) within Mantle. We should have a better and more complete picture of the full API next month when AMD's 2013 Developer Summit convenes.
Concerning the fixed hardware profile.
If you notice there is a mantle driver that will have to handle with the differences.
Second, these days architectures aren't that different. AMD used VLIW from 2006 to 2012. NVIDIA architecture is based on the CUDA cores since G80.
Mantle was never announced in the consoles because Mantle is a ripp-off or a close derivative or the what the consoles use. Consoles use something not named Mantle, not created and owned by AMD but that it is very similar to it at the low level metal access.
Propitiatory API or not, that API was created to interface with AMD GCN. MS and Sony didn't create it without heavy involvement of AMD.
Feel free to actually point at the inaccuracies and go into detail instead of general statements that say nothing.
Hard for me to word without touching "personal attack" stuff and still explaining where (i think you could be) you are wrong in believing that Mantle API is somehow enabling magic compatibility with GCN architecture in a cross platform way. (the API call works everywhere part of it)...and didn't say calls using the Mantle API aren't compatible with Xbone (because they are since GCN is GCN, be it in the consoles or the PC, so if a call work on the Xbone it works on the PC).
It is not correct because "how AMD will design Mantle API" is completely different question from "how will AMD implement Mantle on GCN architecture".(because they are since GCN is GCN, be it in the consoles or the PC, so if a call work on the Xbone it works on the PC).
Ryan Smith's unsubstantiated opinion is now a fact? Some of the stuff he said isn't even accurate. I addressed that article in the mantle thread and predicted AMD's API wouldn't be on either of the next gen consoles and that it has nothing to do with the API's on the consoles.
MS develops their own graphics API, D3D, Mantle was not a base, it was never on the XB1, AMD never designed the API used for it. And yes, the XB1 has DX, no it isn't the same as what we have on the PC, yes the feature sets are almost identical. It's completely irrelevant that they aren't the same, the collection of API's available on the XB1 are still called DX. No one has said it's exactly the same as what's on a PC, doesn't matter that the functions you're calling behave differently, it's still DX cuz that's what MS named it.
Snip
For reference I didn't report you. I generally never report anyone.
Obviously we are talking about low level abstract language and at that level we are indeed caring about the architecture.
I'm not talking about magic compatibility between platforms. I'm talking about optimizations that ignore the high level APi and go straight to the metal or to the hardware driver.
Game developers do this for consoles. MS talk about this.Glide did this. NVAPI does this in BF3. It isn't magic or some top secret.
If indeed the low level constructs are similar if not the same, I don't see why my sentence isn't correct.
Game engines will have indeed to have a wrapper for Mantle.
What will account for differences in hardware will be the driver mantle.
more likely the Mantle library is just a wrapper for DX apisnip
I don't know what you are arguing here. You are pretty much agreeing with what Ryan said. He said Mantle was based off of the type of API's MS uses (not that MS or AMD worked hand in hand to make it happen) in the Xbox One allowing something similar for PCs. He never claimed MS's API's were based off Mantle, its the other way around. He speculates that the API's are similar enough to be easily ported from One to a PC.
This doesn't make sense, if you already have two API's there's nothing to port.He speculates that the API's are similar enough to be easily ported from One to a PC.
No, you don't understand what Ryan said. He never said it was "based off of" he said they were the same thing. He stated Mantle was a "port" of the API used on the XB1. A port is not something tangential or "similar" to. I'm going to paste in what Ryan said in his first article: "Based on what we know thus far, we believe Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC." Ryan said there would be two different API's on the XB1, Mantle and DX. He was convinced it was a "direct copy", he said AMD made their own API for the XB1 and someone have it on there; not this "AMD looked at everything MS did and then took it and made something akin to it on the PC" theory. Mantle is not based off of D3D, AMD created something unique.
This doesn't make sense, if you already have two API's there's nothing to port.
Nowhere in my post did I even allege Mantle has anything in common from a development standpoint with D3D, so I certainly didn't agree with Ryan either.
Mantle was not based off of anything used on a console. That's rubbish and there's no evidence to support it. Furthermore, D3D is proprietary software and AMD cannot take it and purpose it or modify it for their own benefit.
I'm also curious, and would enjoy an explanation, as to why everyone only every talks about Mantle coming from the XB1, and never has anything to do with the PS4. I already know why, it goes back to Ryan's article, and rests on a false assumption. There doesn't need to be two different API's on it, he thinks there's only a high level DX and that AMD has to provide something lower level. An ATi GPU was in the Xbox 360 as well, where is AMD's API for that? They didn't make one, because MS handles it at their discretion.
AMD has affirmed Mantle was designed from the ground up for PC. If it was truly made from a console they'd be talking about how easy it would be to implement it in your engine, because it's already there. It's not.