No Mantle on Xbox One

[OatisCampbell]

http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/appbuilder/archive/2013/10/14/raising-the-bar-with-direct3d.aspx

Other graphics APIs such as OpenGL and AMD’s Mantle are not available on Xbox One.

Errr...OK. Well hopefully AMD springs for some development like 3DFX used to back in the day and gets us some MANTLE versions of shooters beyond BF4.

PS4 should have no such protectionism going on.

 

[Stuka87]

Wait, so are they saying there is no way to code to the metal on XBox one? If thats the case, thats really going to limit performance. AAA console games never use high level API's. They need every ounce of performance they can get.

Unless of course they blog is only pointed towards indie developers.

 

[bystander36]

Wait, so are they saying there is no way to code to the metal on XBox one? If thats the case, thats really going to limit performance. AAA console games never use high level API's. They need every ounce of performance they can get.

Unless of course they blog is only pointed towards indie developers.

By the sound of what was written, it appears the Direct3D version on Xbox One is much closer to the metal than it is on Windows.

Since XBox One has a single configuration, they should be able to cut down on a lot of overhead that the Windows version has, which has to account for tons of different hardware. While the code is the same, the XBox One's code is missing a layer that exists on Windows machines, that handles all the different types of hardware out there.

Frankly, I think this is great news, because if Xbox One is using the same API, even if it is missing hidden layers that exist on Windows, ports should be much easier to port to Windows.

The idea of having 3 different API's being used on Xbox One, Windows AMD GCN and Windows everyone else, is very unappealing. This will lead to much lower quality ports.

 

[blackened23]

XB1 is not using directX. It can support it through wrappers to assist developers with porting and what not but the API tools given to developers is very similar to DX11 in terms of functionality, but it is not DirectX. The xbox 360 is similar in this respect. The XB360 was mistakenly thought to use DX9, but that is not the case. It is using a direct to metal proprietary API that is extremely similar to DX9 in terms of features. But it is not DX9. Although, again, you can use wrappers to assist with porting DX9 titles (although, ports are generally the OTHER way around - console to PC, not vice versa).

Furthermore, I don't know why anyone thought XB1 would use Mantle. AMD is positioning mantle for the engines that support multiple platforms such as Frostbite 3 (all 2014 EA games will be using it), CryEngine, UE4, among others. They only need to get it into game engines, from what i've read the XB1 and PS4 have never had a need for Mantle because both systems already have well developed proprietary APIs that are for direct hardware access. They are NOT DirectX, though, although they are similar to DX11 in terms of features. If AMD can get Mantle into the games that power 85%+ of games (nearly ALL multiplatform games license the engine) then AMD's job is done. They don't need to talk to 10 billion developers as was the case with 3dfx in the old days. They're just pushing it into multiplatform engines, XB1 and PS4 APIs have nothing to do with that at all.

 

[bystander36]

Are you sure it is not the same Direct3D on Windows as the article claims? I don't doubt there will be differences, but the article linked made it sound as if it was pretty darn close to the same.

For over 15 years, Direct3D has served as an essential ingredient to deliver cutting-edge 3D graphics in games. During this time, Direct3D has dramatically evolved as a result of deep investments we’ve made in development across our device platforms (Windows, Xbox, and Windows Phone) and continued partnership with industry-leading GPU hardware vendors and game developers. We are very excited that with the launch of Xbox One, we can now bring the latest generation of Direct3D 11 to console. The Xbox One graphics API is “Direct3D 11.x” and the Xbox One hardware provides a superset of Direct3D 11.2 functionality. Other graphics APIs such as OpenGL and AMD’s Mantle are not available on Xbox One.
Developers creating content for the Xbox One are able to use the same programing constructs across Windows and Xbox, and benefit from all the improvements that have been introduced on Windows. With Xbox One we have also made significant enhancements to the implementation of Direct3D 11, especially in the area of runtime overhead. The result is a very streamlined, “close to metal” level of runtime performance. In conjunction with the third generation PIX performance tool for Xbox One, developers can use Direct3D 11 to unlock the full performance potential of the console.

 

[blackened23]

It is a highly modified proprietary API using DX11.x features as a baseline, but is tailored to the XB1's hardware specifically. Yes, i'm sure of this. The same nonsense came up prior to xbox 360s release with regard to DX9. Xbox 360 does not use DX9 as it's API. It is similar and has the same baseline features, but is 100% not the same - it is tailored to the hardware of the 360 just as XB1's proprietary API tools are tailored to its hardware and that hardware alone.

 

[Sohaltang]

Sony should offer full mantle support and crush Xbone. PS4 is already more powerful, and the would just widen the gap. not sure why MS would turn away free performance.

 

[blackened23]

Why would they need Mantle? Both systems HAVE direct to metal APIs. They do not need Mantle and never have, they're both using proprietary APIs (which are based on and similar to DX11.x, but NOT the same) that offer direct hardware access.

 

[exar333]

Consoles do not need mantle...they already have proprietary APIs (as multiple people also stated above).

Should I also create a new thread that says 'Xbox 360 will not support Mantle' as well? This is ridiculous.

 

[exar333]

Why would they need Mantle? Both systems HAVE direct to metal APIs. They do not need Mantle and never have, they're both using proprietary APIs (which are based on and similar to DX11.x, but NOT the same) that offer direct hardware access.

This.

Look's like OP has an axe to grind against MS...

 

[OCGuy]

There goes the master plan.

By the way DX improves COD4 drastically in the beta by freeing up resources (much like Mantle is supposed to do), there is no reason for Mantle on Xbox.

The fact that some people thought Microsoft would let someone attempt to take marketshare away from DirectX, using their own gaming platform, is fairly laughable.

 

[Kenmitch]

Sony should offer full mantle support and crush Xbone. PS4 is already more powerful, and the would just widen the gap. not sure why MS would turn away free performance.

It doesn't sound like MS is turning away free performance to me. Mantle is just giving GCN and the PC the benefits of a low level API like the consoles have always had.

 

[OCGuy]

Consoles do not need mantle...they already have proprietary APIs (as multiple people also stated above).

Should I also create a new thread that says 'Xbox 360 will not support Mantle' as well? This is ridiculous.

Go look through the Mantle thread(s). People were announcing the death of NVidia due to Mantle being the new standard across all gaming platforms.


Something tells me this announcement will not get as much attention as the jump-the-gun "mantle" announcement, which is still just vaporware.

 

[OCGuy]

XB1 is not using directX. It can support it through wrappers to assist developers with porting and what not but the API tools given to developers is very similar to DX11 in terms of functionality, but it is not DirectX. The xbox 360 is similar in this respect. The XB360 was mistakenly thought to use DX9, but that is not the case. It is using a direct to metal proprietary API that is extremely similar to DX9 in terms of features. But it is not DX9. Although, again, you can use wrappers to assist with porting DX9 titles (although, ports are generally the OTHER way around - console to PC, not vice versa).

"At this year’s Build Developers Conference, Microsoft unveiled its latest version of DirectX, demonstrated the new "Tiled Resources" technique, and made the announcement that the update will be exclusive to Windows 8.1 and the Xbox One.

DirectX 11.2 also promises to deliver a large number of other improvements such as more responsive improvements through reduced delay for applications run on top of an API, pre-compiling of HLSL shaders, GPU overlay support and frame buffer scaling"

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/DirectX-11.2-Tiled-Resources-Xbox,23322.html

 

[Teizo]

"At this year’s Build Developers Conference, Microsoft unveiled its latest version of DirectX, demonstrated the new "Tiled Resources" technique, and made the announcement that the update will be exclusive to Windows 8.1 and the Xbox One.[/url]

Nice try on their part to try to twist people's arms into switching to W8.

Pathetic. As much as I try to like W8, I just can't get around the GUI which for me is a major part of the desktop user experience. Even with Start8, I just don't care for the fact their is no proper Aero/Glass scheme and I don't care for having a tablet interface on top of the desktop. I know you can bypass it, but as much potential as W8 has...MS screwed up trying to be to 'Apple' like with Metro for me.

OK, sorry for the side track...but I do think it is pathetic MS is doing something like this so it can try to force a W8 market share increase.

 

[Subyman]

Mantle was developed based on the Xbox One's API's, not the other way around. Anand did a full article about it and an update in the 280X review. Maybe read it:

Based on what we know thus far, we believe Mantle is the fundamentals of the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC.

By being based on the Xbox One’s low level API, Mantle isn’t just a new low level API for AMD GCN cards, whose success is defined by whether AMD can get developers to create games specifically for it, but Mantle becomes the bridge for porting over Xbox One games to the PC. Nothing like this has ever been done before, so quite how it will play out as a porting API is still up in the air, but it’s the kind of unexpected development that could have significant ramifications for multiplatform games in the future.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7400/the-radeon-r9-280x-review-feat-asus-xfx/2

 

[OCGuy]

Mantle was developed based on the Xbox One's API's, not the other way around. Anand did a full article about it and an update in the 280X review. Maybe read it:



http://www.anandtech.com/show/7400/the-radeon-r9-280x-review-feat-asus-xfx/2

That article has all sorts of problems with it now that it is known that most developers will just stick with the plan, unless AMD partners with them to develop for Mantle.

 

[OatisCampbell]

Consoles do not need mantle...they already have proprietary APIs (as multiple people also stated above).

Should I also create a new thread that says 'Xbox 360 will not support Mantle' as well? This is ridiculous.

Could swear I've seen posts here that said MANTLE was how devs were going to get high end performance out of the low end parts in PS4/XBox1.

I'll likely get a 290X to replace my 7970 sooner or later, was hoping for a lot of MANTLE games and sort of annoyed MS is doing this.

 

[Bateluer]

http://www.pcper.com/news/Graphics-Cards/Microsoft-Confirms-AMD-Mantle-Not-Compatible-Xbox-One

http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/appbuilder/archive/2013/10/14/raising-the-bar-with-direct3d.aspx

We are very excited that with the launch of Xbox One, we can now bring the latest generation of Direct3D 11 to console. The Xbox One graphics API is “Direct3D 11.x” and the Xbox One hardware provides a superset of Direct3D 11.2 functionality. Other graphics APIs such as OpenGL and AMD’s Mantle are not available on Xbox One.

Makes one wonder what Microsoft was thinking with the Xbox One. First, the DRM issues at announcement and the mind bogglingly bad PR response. Then the mandatory always on Kinect. Then, the underpowered hardware specs, DDR3 memory and low end GPU. Then the annoucements that Ryse, BF4, and Watch Dogs were not going to be running at 1080p, rather 900p. And 30fps instead of 60.

This thing kinda looks like the Titanic, going full throttle into the iceberg.

 

[ocre]

Could swear I've seen posts here that said MANTLE was how devs were going to get high end performance out of the low end parts in PS4/XBox1.

I'll likely get a 290X to replace my 7970 sooner or later, was hoping for a lot of MANTLE games and sort of annoyed MS is doing this.

So far it seems more like marketing hype.

But the 290x does sound awesome!

 

[VulgarDisplay]

Not available and not compatible are completely different things. It works on GCN GPU's. No one knows the details of how the consoles are connected to Mantle yet. I'm sure Microsoft and Sony don't know the full story either. We just have to wait and see what is coming in the future.

 

[Conker10k]

They want to be the slower console it seems. Once the ps4 starts to fully utilize Mantle we will see them immediately change their minds. It wont be that long before they say "its compatible now". PS4 will be getting smooth frame rates while Xbox1 chugs and stutters in battle scenes. Mantle allows for better core threading and the rest with the graphics card. DirectX in most cases slows down fps performance when multi-threading mode is enabled. Shooting themselves in the foot locking themselves out. Xbox1 will be almost twice as slow as the PS4 if they don't change their mind.

 

[VulgarDisplay]

I don't see how this changes anything. Mantle just like the proprietary API's in use on the Xbone and PS4 are designed to leverage the DX11.x features that are compatible with the GCN gpu's in the consoles. Mantle just like the proprietery API's is able to bypass the abstraction layer and do work directly in the GPU. It doesn't seem impossible to me that a developer working direct to metal on the xbone would not be able to expect similar results performing the programming they did on the xbone as on the PC. This console generation is something completely different than what has come before in how similar to a regular gaming PC it is.

 

[xAlias]

This news

 

[tviceman]

Sounds more like dismantled to me.