No murder conviction in Mexican immigrant's death

[imported_six]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Well in terms of who is most likely to get the death penalty or whatever I guess that's true, but as to who is guilty of murder it doesn't matter. In this case I'm sure what they were doing counted as felony assault and battery or whatever, and if you are committing a felony and someone dies while you are doing it, instant felony murder. It doesn't matter if you are robbing a bank and someone has a heart attack.

You're right in that sense.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Wheezer

yes and we all know how reliable eyewitness testimony can be. :roll:

thats why they don't take cases to court unless there is more....people have notoriously bad memories.

which is why he was found guilty of assault....did people see him hit the guy?...yes.

was it the final strike?...yes

were any of these witnesses medical personnel that checked the victim immediately afterwards and can concretely say beyond a reasonable doubt that he delivered the killing blow?...no they were not.

sorry but final blow =! killing blow

And like I was saying, it doesn't actually matter who delivered the killing blow.

 

[Double Trouble]

Funny how people jump to all sorts of conclusions without knowing the actual details / facts in the case. First, we don't know who started the fight, and why. Prosecutors allege that the group "baited" the teen into a fight using racial epitaphs. If someone hurls an insult at someone else, and the other person responds with physical violence, then the person being attacked (the one hurling the insult) is certainly entitled to use any force needed to defend themselves. I wasn't there, but as a jury member I'd have a hard time convicting someone of murder for beating someone that attacked them first. Insults do not give someone the right to physically attack someone else.

Also, in typical CNN fashion, the victim is referred to as an "undocumented Mexican immigrant" instead of the more accurate term "illegal immigrant". That tells me right there that the author is biased against the defendants in the case.

 

[brandonbull]

Originally posted by: Double Trouble
Funny how people jump to all sorts of conclusions without knowing the actual details / facts in the case. First, we don't know who started the fight, and why. Prosecutors allege that the group "baited" the teen into a fight using racial epitaphs. If someone hurls an insult at someone else, and the other person responds with physical violence, then the person being attacked (the one hurling the insult) is certainly entitled to use any force needed to defend themselves. I wasn't there, but as a jury member I'd have a hard time convicting someone of murder for beating someone that attacked them first. Insults do not give someone the right to physically attack someone else.

Also, in typical CNN fashion, the victim is referred to as an "undocumented Mexican immigrant" instead of the more accurate term "illegal immigrant". That tells me right there that the author is biased against the defendants in the case.

We all know that America is full of racists whiteys. Non whites do not start fights or commit racial crimes. The evil white people make up crimes just to be able to lock up those darkies. And how dare those white kids be judged by a jury of their peers? They couldn't find a dozen of "undocumented" immigrants to convict them of felony murder? Since it was some white people involved with some poor "undocumented" immigrant, we all know that it was a case of ethnic intimidation and they are guilty.

Must have been the same racist court system that let those kids from Duke off. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good race crime conviction.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: Phokus
I'm sure the republicans in this forum are crying about the miscarriage of justice here.

What's it like to go through life angry all the time? I hope it fills some need in you, because to me, it seems like a miserable way to wake up and go to sleep every night.

But, hey, if it works for you, that's good. I hope the man gets his foot off your neck someday.

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: brandonbull

Originally posted by: Double Trouble
Funny how people jump to all sorts of conclusions without knowing the actual details / facts in the case. First, we don't know who started the fight, and why. Prosecutors allege that the group "baited" the teen into a fight using racial epitaphs. If someone hurls an insult at someone else, and the other person responds with physical violence, then the person being attacked (the one hurling the insult) is certainly entitled to use any force needed to defend themselves. I wasn't there, but as a jury member I'd have a hard time convicting someone of murder for beating someone that attacked them first. Insults do not give someone the right to physically attack someone else.

Also, in typical CNN fashion, the victim is referred to as an "undocumented Mexican immigrant" instead of the more accurate term "illegal immigrant". That tells me right there that the author is biased against the defendants in the case.

We all know that America is full of racists whiteys. Non whites do not start fights or commit racial crimes. The evil white people make up crimes just to be able to lock up those darkies. And how dare those white kids be judged by a jury of their peers? They couldn't find a dozen of "undocumented" immigrants to convict them of felony murder? Since it was some white people involved with some poor "undocumented" immigrant, we all know that it was a case of ethnic intimidation and they are guilty.

Must have been the same racist court system that let those kids from Duke off. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good race crime conviction.

:roll:

If you beat someone to death, it's murder. These white boys weren't charged with murder. The problem may not be a racist jury (it probably is, but let's pretend), but there is a problem here.

 

[Double Trouble]

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: brandonbull

Originally posted by: Double Trouble
Funny how people jump to all sorts of conclusions without knowing the actual details / facts in the case. First, we don't know who started the fight, and why. Prosecutors allege that the group "baited" the teen into a fight using racial epitaphs. If someone hurls an insult at someone else, and the other person responds with physical violence, then the person being attacked (the one hurling the insult) is certainly entitled to use any force needed to defend themselves. I wasn't there, but as a jury member I'd have a hard time convicting someone of murder for beating someone that attacked them first. Insults do not give someone the right to physically attack someone else.

Also, in typical CNN fashion, the victim is referred to as an "undocumented Mexican immigrant" instead of the more accurate term "illegal immigrant". That tells me right there that the author is biased against the defendants in the case.

We all know that America is full of racists whiteys. Non whites do not start fights or commit racial crimes. The evil white people make up crimes just to be able to lock up those darkies. And how dare those white kids be judged by a jury of their peers? They couldn't find a dozen of "undocumented" immigrants to convict them of felony murder? Since it was some white people involved with some poor "undocumented" immigrant, we all know that it was a case of ethnic intimidation and they are guilty.

Must have been the same racist court system that let those kids from Duke off. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good race crime conviction.

:roll:

If you beat someone to death, it's murder. These white boys weren't charged with murder. The problem may not be a racist jury (it probably is, but let's pretend), but there is a problem here.

They were not charged with murder because a murder charge would require the prosecution to prove that they intended to kill him. In this case, that would be virtually impossible, especially since the victim is said to have started the fight. By your logic, the circumstances don't matter though -- they are white, the victim was not, so they must be guilty. :roll:

 

[n yusef]

Originally posted by: Double Trouble

Originally posted by: n yusef

Originally posted by: brandonbull

Originally posted by: Double Trouble
Funny how people jump to all sorts of conclusions without knowing the actual details / facts in the case. First, we don't know who started the fight, and why. Prosecutors allege that the group "baited" the teen into a fight using racial epitaphs. If someone hurls an insult at someone else, and the other person responds with physical violence, then the person being attacked (the one hurling the insult) is certainly entitled to use any force needed to defend themselves. I wasn't there, but as a jury member I'd have a hard time convicting someone of murder for beating someone that attacked them first. Insults do not give someone the right to physically attack someone else.

Also, in typical CNN fashion, the victim is referred to as an "undocumented Mexican immigrant" instead of the more accurate term "illegal immigrant". That tells me right there that the author is biased against the defendants in the case.

We all know that America is full of racists whiteys. Non whites do not start fights or commit racial crimes. The evil white people make up crimes just to be able to lock up those darkies. And how dare those white kids be judged by a jury of their peers? They couldn't find a dozen of "undocumented" immigrants to convict them of felony murder? Since it was some white people involved with some poor "undocumented" immigrant, we all know that it was a case of ethnic intimidation and they are guilty.

Must have been the same racist court system that let those kids from Duke off. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good race crime conviction.

:roll:

If you beat someone to death, it's murder. These white boys weren't charged with murder. The problem may not be a racist jury (it probably is, but let's pretend), but there is a problem here.

They were not charged with murder because a murder charge would require the prosecution to prove that they intended to kill him. In this case, that would be virtually impossible, especially since the victim is said to have started the fight. By your logic, the circumstances don't matter though -- they are white, the victim was not, so they must be guilty. :roll:

No. If someone dies during the commission of a felony, it is murder. These boys were charged with Felony Assault, so they should have been charged with murder as well.

 

[Sacrilege]

So who is responsible for this guy's death? Is he responsible for his own death?

Was the drunk posse of white teens shouting racial epithets merely defending themselves from the big bad violent illegal Mexican, when they bashed his brains out of his skull?

Maybe this brown Mexican was going to rape a white woman.... were the drunken teens protecting the community from an imminent attack? Remember, every 8 seconds an illegal Mexican commits a sexual assault. And many of their victims are not fellow illegal she-Mexicans, but white women.

CNN Link

What message does this verdict send? That racial minorities should settle in rural white towns at their own risk. And that is exactly the kind of message Republicans want it to send: illegal aliens, brown skinned people, and other undesirables are now put on notice by The Real Americans.

 

[Double Trouble]

Originally posted by: n yusef
No. If someone dies during the commission of a felony, it is murder. These boys were charged with Felony Assault, so they should have been charged with murder as well.

Riiiight... you are now a legal expert as well? :roll: Further, if the jury acquitted them of even the felony assault charges, what the heck makes you think they would be willing to convict them of murder? The prosecutor went with the charges he thought he thought he could get convictions on.

 

[Double Trouble]

Originally posted by: Sacrilege
So who is responsible for this guy's death? Is he responsible for his own death?

Was the drunk posse of white teens shouting racial epithets merely defending themselves from the big bad violent illegal Mexican, when they bashed his brains out of his skull?

Maybe this brown Mexican was going to rape a white woman.... were the drunken teens protecting the community from an imminent attack? Remember, every 8 seconds an illegal Mexican commits a sexual assault. And many of their victims are not fellow illegal she-Mexicans, but white women.

CNN Link

What message does this verdict send? That racial minorities should settle in rural white towns at their own risk. And that is exactly the kind of message Republicans want it to send: illegal aliens, brown skinned people, and other undesirables are now put on notice by The Real Americans.

Wow. Moron of the week alert. Somehow republicans are now responsible for the verdict of a jury? How do you know that jury wasn't 100% democrats? You don't, you're just spewing stupidity as usual. Show me where democrat / republican appears in the story at all other than in your pin-sized brain?

 

[brandonbull]

If I'm some where a several people start screwing with me, I'm looking for the quickest way away from them. Unless you are billy-badass, throwing the first punch when you are outnumbered is dumb.

 

[BoomerD]

From the backstory:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...grant_killing_students

"Prosecutors said the two white defendants attacked Luis Ramirez because of his race, while the defense cast the victim as a man with a short fuse who continued the fight even after the teens tried to walk away."



"The first day of testimony included the revelation that Ramirez was carrying on a sexual relationship with a 15-year-old girl. The girl's interaction with the teens started the argument that led to the fight in Shenandoah, a small town in eastern Pennsylvania coal country about 80 miles northwest of Philadelphia."

"Among the witnesses Monday was a 15-year-old girl who told jurors that she began dating Ramirez when she was barely 14. She said she had a sexual relationship with him and that he had proposed marriage to her a few days before the altercation.

The girl is the half-sister of Crystal Dillman, 25, who has two children with Ramirez and who has called herself Ramirez's fiancee."

"The fight began late on July 12 when the teens, all Shenandoah residents who played football at Shenandoah Valley High School, were walking home from a block party and spotted the teenage girl alone in a darkened park.

"Isn't it a little late for you to be out?" Scully asked the teen.

At that point, Fanelli said, Ramirez emerged from the shadows "and goes nuts." Ramirez "was not going to let these white teenage boys talk that way to his girlfriend" and told them, "I run this park. I own this block," Fanelli said.

Fanelli said Ramirez started the fight by punching Piekarsky, but Franz, the prosecutor, said Piekarsky "snapped" and began hitting Ramirez. Witnesses testified that Ramirez and the teens began running toward each other and fighting, but that it was unclear who threw the first punch.

Donchak entered the fray and wound up on top of Ramirez but let him up and yelled, "It's over!"

Ramirez and the teens went their separate ways. But then two of Ramirez's friends arrived, and he ran off after the teens and sucker-punched Scully in the head, Fanelli said. "


It sounds to me like the Mexican actually started the fight, then, after the white kids walked away, he got some friends and started it again.

While this may not be cause to be beaten to death, he is the one who kept the fight going. The most I'd have expected would have been involuntary manslaughter.

 

[Double Trouble]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
From the backstory:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...grant_killing_students

"Prosecutors said the two white defendants attacked Luis Ramirez because of his race, while the defense cast the victim as a man with a short fuse who continued the fight even after the teens tried to walk away."



"The first day of testimony included the revelation that Ramirez was carrying on a sexual relationship with a 15-year-old girl. The girl's interaction with the teens started the argument that led to the fight in Shenandoah, a small town in eastern Pennsylvania coal country about 80 miles northwest of Philadelphia."

"Among the witnesses Monday was a 15-year-old girl who told jurors that she began dating Ramirez when she was barely 14. She said she had a sexual relationship with him and that he had proposed marriage to her a few days before the altercation.

The girl is the half-sister of Crystal Dillman, 25, who has two children with Ramirez and who has called herself Ramirez's fiancee."

"The fight began late on July 12 when the teens, all Shenandoah residents who played football at Shenandoah Valley High School, were walking home from a block party and spotted the teenage girl alone in a darkened park.

"Isn't it a little late for you to be out?" Scully asked the teen.

At that point, Fanelli said, Ramirez emerged from the shadows "and goes nuts." Ramirez "was not going to let these white teenage boys talk that way to his girlfriend" and told them, "I run this park. I own this block," Fanelli said.

Fanelli said Ramirez started the fight by punching Piekarsky, but Franz, the prosecutor, said Piekarsky "snapped" and began hitting Ramirez. Witnesses testified that Ramirez and the teens began running toward each other and fighting, but that it was unclear who threw the first punch.

Donchak entered the fray and wound up on top of Ramirez but let him up and yelled, "It's over!"

Ramirez and the teens went their separate ways. But then two of Ramirez's friends arrived, and he ran off after the teens and sucker-punched Scully in the head, Fanelli said. "


It sounds to me like the Mexican actually started the fight, then, after the white kids walked away, he got some friends and started it again.

While this may not be cause to be beaten to death, he is the one who kept the fight going. The most I'd have expected would have been involuntary manslaughter.

Yep. And even then, all it would take would be 1 single racist jury member who would simply not convict a white guy of murder for killing a mexican guy (hello OJ jury!), and the defendants walk anyway. The prosecutor went with the charges he thought he could stick.

 

[babylon5]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
From the backstory:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...grant_killing_students

Seems like the real story is more complicated than some people want us to believe.

 

[Sacrilege]

Whether or not this illegal Mexican instigated the fight is up for debate. It appears that some here want to assume he did, because of underlying bias against Mexicans and innate support for the white teenagers. This is understandable.

The real effect is that this verdict will cool relations between illegal Mexicans and American citizens. Illegal Mexicans will be intimidated from moving into communities with white majorities. This is a victory for the anti-illegal-Mexican movement. It is unfortunate that a man, however hot headed he may have been, had to die in this unfortunate incident.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Sacrilege
Whether or not this illegal Mexican instigated the fight is up for debate. It appears that some here want to assume he did, because of underlying bias against Mexicans and innate support for the white teenagers. This is understandable.

The real effect is that this verdict will cool relations between illegal Mexicans and American citizens. Illegal Mexicans will be intimidated from moving into communities with white majorities. This is a victory for the anti-illegal-Mexican movement. It is unfortunate that a man, however hot headed he may have been, had to die in this unfortunate incident.

I for one, see the bolded part of your statement as a good thing. The illegals should ALL be deported...every fucking one. NO dammed "compassionate consideration" because they have children born here. Children born here of illegal parents should NOT become automatic citizens. Our economy will run just fine without the illegals. Yes, the agriculture industry needs the labor. Set up a "guest worker" program that requires them to return to their home nation annually.
If a farmer/rancher needs full time help, let him hire a citizen/legal immigrant.

 

[Andrew1990]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Sacrilege
Whether or not this illegal Mexican instigated the fight is up for debate. It appears that some here want to assume he did, because of underlying bias against Mexicans and innate support for the white teenagers. This is understandable.


I for one, see the bolded part of your statement as a good thing. The illegals should ALL be deported...every fucking one. NO dammed "compassionate consideration" because they have children born here. Children born here of illegal parents should NOT become automatic citizens. Our economy will run just fine without the illegals. Yes, the agriculture industry needs the labor. Set up a "guest worker" program that requires them to return to their home nation annually.
If a farmer/rancher needs full time help, let him hire a citizen/legal immigrant.

That wont happen because it doesnt include the share the wealth idea.

Really, if we ask them to leave and they dont, issue a shoot on sight order for the illegals. Doesnt matter if they are illegal mexicans or illegal Canadians. They need to leave.

 

[boomerang]

Edited for messed up quotes.

Like your sig Andrew1990!

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Sacrilege
Whether or not this illegal Mexican instigated the fight is up for debate. It appears that some here want to assume he did, because of underlying bias against Mexicans and innate support for the white teenagers. This is understandable.

The real effect is that this verdict will cool relations between illegal Mexicans and American citizens. Illegal Mexicans will be intimidated from moving into communities with white majorities. This is a victory for the anti-illegal-Mexican movement. It is unfortunate that a man, however hot headed he may have been, had to die in this unfortunate incident.

I for one, see the bolded part of your statement as a good thing. The illegals should ALL be deported...every fucking one. NO dammed "compassionate consideration" because they have children born here. Children born here of illegal parents should NOT become automatic citizens. Our economy will run just fine without the illegals. Yes, the agriculture industry needs the labor. Set up a "guest worker" program that requires them to return to their home nation annually.
If a farmer/rancher needs full time help, let him hire a citizen/legal immigrant.

We're in lockstep agreement on this issue.

 

[dbk]

Originally posted by: theflyingpig
I just saw this on Law & Order. Ripped from the headlines.

Same here... it was a great episode.


Spoiler:
The difference being that the victim was actually put into a coma.
After the jury found the defendants not guilty the mother of the illegal alien decided to pull the plug.
The episode ends with the prosecution making the decision to retry the defendants for murder.

 

[bozack]

looks like justice was served.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: dbk

Originally posted by: theflyingpig
I just saw this on Law & Order. Ripped from the headlines.

Same here... it was a great episode.


Spoiler:
The difference being that the victim was actually put into a coma.
After the jury found the defendants not guilty the mother of the illegal alien decided to pull the plug.
The episode ends with the prosecution making the decision to retry the defendants for murder.

Instead of pulling the plug the mother should have bought a gun and killed the defendants... if it were my son I just might do that

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: dahunan
Isn't the jury supposed to be made up of ones peers? All White Supremacists (over those illegals) is not that mans peers

Will these punks even have to pay the doctors bills?

America... fuck you... where we are still racist inbreds.. what the fuck you gonna do about it

Your racism is exhibit A. Ranting and raving about whites. Fuck you too.

The act of beating someone to death is murder, and those involved should be found guilty of murder. There is no need to bring race into this matter, except by racists.

:thumbsup:

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: Phokus
I'm sure the republicans in this forum are crying about the miscarriage of justice here.

Im sure your trolling ass is just mad that someone instead of yourself started a race-baiting thread.