No Politics Here: Earth just had a near-miss with a 'city killer' asteroid

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CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
856
126
Well ICBMs basically go into space.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty#Key_points

Not stationed in space, orbiting the Earth, or stationed on the moon.

ICBMs go up and down. Also, it's fair to say that no one gives a flip about the treaties when it comes to the point where they are firing ICBMs at each other. A nation might be accused of manufacturing a crises to excuse a violation if they use it in such a manner, especially since the expectations for success are so low.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,539
13,109
136
LOL! You'd have to know what city it was going to impact or explode over. That's essentially impossible to predict, so we're right back to the reality of this not being "in time" for anything.

Tell us: What city was this "city killer" going to hit and what did we do to avert that? Without that, how would knowing sooner or later have changed anything at all?

Get real. Even if you could track it well enough to know where it would impact you can't possibly know that it won't break up and impact multiple other places or flatten another city with the shockwave of it exploding in the atmosphere at some unpredictable part of it's predicted path.
I dont have the imagination to contemplate that we CANT pinpoint where its going to hit. We are detecting gravity waves from events galaxies away... Aight, I may be wrong, cause I havent looked into it for the mere reason stated.
Also... if its breaking up.. I mean then it wouldnt be a city killer anymore would it?
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,539
13,109
136
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty#Key_points

Not stationed in space, orbiting the Earth, or stationed on the moon.

ICBMs go up and down. Also, it's fair to say that no one gives a flip about the treaties when it comes to the point where they are firing ICBMs at each other. A nation might be accused of manufacturing a crises to excuse a violation if they use it in such a manner, especially since the expectations for success are so low.
What?
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,539
13,109
136
LOL! You'd have to know what city it was going to impact or explode over. That's essentially impossible to predict, so we're right back to the reality of this not being "in time" for anything.

Tell us: What city was this "city killer" going to hit and what did we do to avert that? Without that, how would knowing sooner or later have changed anything at all?

Get real. Even if you could track it well enough to know where it would impact you can't possibly know that it won't break up and impact multiple other places or flatten another city with the shockwave of it exploding in the atmosphere at some unpredictable part of it's predicted path.
Here read this : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_impact_prediction
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,127
5,657
126
Do you people comprehend English? Expand the nested quotes and try again.

The article headline posted by dank69 says that we "barely noticed in time" -- incorrectly implying that we noticed with just enough time to take action; also implying that our action averted disaster somehow.

Evacuations are something that can be done with sufficient warning.
 
Reactions: cytg111

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,127
5,657
126
LOL! You'd have to know what city it was going to impact or explode over. That's essentially impossible to predict, so we're right back to the reality of this not being "in time" for anything.

Tell us: What city was this "city killer" going to hit and what did we do to avert that? Without that, how would knowing sooner or later have changed anything at all?

Get real. Even if you could track it well enough to know where it would impact you can't possibly know that it won't break up and impact multiple other places or flatten another city with the shockwave of it exploding in the atmosphere at some unpredictable part of it's predicted path.

We could easily know where it would hit.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,843
13,774
146
@Ichinisan
@JSt0rm
@CZroe
@Hayabusa Rider
@pcgeek11

Whoa there fellas. There’s a lot to unpack here. But before we go off designing fleets of AI powered, non nuclear satellites to protect the Eastern seaboard maybe understanding exactly what the risks are, how they are currently dealt with and what could be done today.


First some fun facts about the asteroid in the article. The articles say the asteroid was moving at 54000mph relative to Earth with an impact energy potential 30 times that of the A bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

That gives an impact energy of 1.9x10^15joules or 450 KT of TNT.

Using the standard kinetic energy equation of KE = (1/2)(M)(Velocity ^2) gives us a mass of about 6400 metric tons.

So this is equivalent in destructive potential to a modern H bomb. During the 50’s and 60’s many larger bombs than 450KT were detonated above ground or underwater. 2019OK is only deadly if it hits populated areas.

For comparison the Tunguska Event was around 10MT or 4.2X10^16 joules.

The Chicxulub Asteroid that killed the dinosaurs was over 10 miles in diameter and hit with an impact energy of 120,000,000 megatons of TNT or 5X10^23 joules. Equivalent to 260,000,000 2019OK asteroid impacts.

MITIGATION
Now did we detect it in time to do something? Doing something doesn’t have to mean deflecting it. With about two days knowledge of a populated impact you could evacuate most of the populace. (As an example 2-3 million people evacuated south east Houston and Galveston county in 48 hours before Hurricane Rita.)

With 2019OK we only had about a days notice so if it was to hit a populated area it was marginal if an evacuation would have been successful. (One should note that 70% of the Earth is uninhabited and hits on populated but rural areas probably could be evacuated in less than one day)

For deflection missions you must have years in advance. To avoid the Earth the asteroid must be deflected by between 0 and the radius of the Earth. For example if your asteroid is on a dead center collision and you’ve got 10 years to adjust its velocity you need to change its speed by about 20 mm/s to miss Earth radially. If it’s a tangential hit maybe only 1-2mm/s or less is required.

Each asteroid requires different delta V changes and vector calculations based on its trajectory and time to intercept. Because of the absolutely massive differences in delta V required to intercept asteroids from different point in the sky it’s a waste to try and have some sort of AI interceptors already in orbit. You will never be in the right orbit with the right amount of propellant to intercept the object appropriately.

Early detection is the key. 90% of large asteroids have been catalogued with emphasis on detection years or decades before impact so deflection efforts can be undertaken. Current efforts are underway to detect objects like 2019Ok that are 10m and larger days to weeks in advance so evacuations could occur. Anything smaller isn’t really a threat.

The number of objects detected steadily goes up each year.



For any asteroid detected years away the two simplest ways to change its trajectory is by impact or gravitational tug.

An impactor like the 2005 Deep impact mission where we slammed a 100KG copper mass into a comet at 10.2 kps equivalent to 4.8 tonnes of TNT would be enough to move an asteroid much larger than 2019OK over a 10 year period.

Gravitational tugs are another way. Simply put a large probe in orbit around the asteroid and they form a gravitationally bound system. Slowly change the probes orbit and the orbit of the asteroid changes as well. Over time it changes enough to miss earth. We already basically do this with probes like Hayabusa 2 and Osiris-rex.

Most of the easy objects have been found. The ones still out there are some combination of:
  • Small
  • Low Albedo (dark)
  • Highly Elliptical Orbit
  • Hyperbolic Orbit (think large fast comets with long periods from way outside the orbits of any planets)
  • Approaches Earth from the direction of the Sun

What we really need to be safe is more and better ground and space telescopes to perform sky surveys and find the remaining dangerous objects. Even then the odds of something more dangerous than the Chelyabinsk meteor hitting in our lifetime is very very small.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,273
8,198
136
How do we judge how many objects there could be out there that we haven't yet spotted?

I find it hard to grasp how one even calculates probabilities for this sort of thing.
 

Ichinisan

Lifer
Oct 9, 2002
28,298
1,234
136
MITIGATION
... Each asteroid requires different delta V changes and vector calculations based on its trajectory and time to intercept. Because of the absolutely massive differences in delta V required to intercept asteroids from different point in the sky it’s a waste to try and have some sort of AI interceptors already in orbit. You will never be in the right orbit with the right amount of propellant to intercept the object appropriately.
Yeah. I wasn't suggesting that the hypothetical AI detector / interceptors would be in Earth orbit. They'd have to be scattered throughout much of the solar system to be effective.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Early detection is the key naturally. Even a planet killer may have its course altered by painting it given enough lead time.
 
Feb 4, 2009
34,703
15,951
136
Best idea I heard from the previously mentioned what if show was be good a detecting them as early as possible the use rockets to land on the asteroid then burn another rocket to nudge it to go faster, slower or a different direction.
That is technically possible now.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,843
13,774
146
Yeah. I wasn't suggesting that the hypothetical AI detector / interceptors would be in Earth orbit. They'd have to be scattered throughout much of the solar system to be effective.

Even then it doesn’t work . The delta V requirements for a probe to intercept any given asteroid makes it virtually impossible to intercept if the probe wasn’t on the correct trajectory in the first place. They simply can’t carry enough propellant. Even ion propulsion only makes it fractionally better.

As an example of what I mean even if we had known that the shuttle Columbia had a hole in its wing and it was at the same altitude and velocity as the ISS it could never have reached the ISS and docked. It’s orbit was at a 39 degree inclination while the ISS is at 51.6 degrees. To make that plane change would have basically required another external tank and set of SRBs worth of propellant.

So to make your idea work we either need millions or billions of probes or we need Sci-Fi like propulsion systems.

The best way to be prepared is to fly a small constellation of telescopes to perform the sky surveys necessary to find all the dangerous objects.

Then on the ground have a few impactor or gravity tractor probes in storage while paying SpaceX to have a falcon heavy available to launch on short turn around.
 
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