No such thing as a "perfect" temperature

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
I started a new thread with this because I think the points raised in it are significant enough to warrant that. And unlike my ?Coldest Easter in years thread? this one is based on a strong scientific foundation.
In short this article shows that much of the Global Warming hysteria is misplaced or based on incomplete scientific evidence.

A few points he raises:
1. Models predict that doubling the CO2 in the air will raise temps 1.5 to 4.5 degrees. We have already seen a 75% increase in CO2, but the temps has only risen .6 degrees less than half the bottom point in these models. Perhaps the models are wrong?
2. There was a warming trend between 1050 and 1300. No one can explain why it happened. But we know for sure it wasn?t caused by automobiles and green house gasses. Perhaps what we are seeing now is just another long term trend similar to that one.
3. El Nino and the Hurricane cycle show that weather patterns play out naturally over many years. With El Nino the temp of the water becomes hotter and colder all by itself with no man made interference; perhaps what we are seeing is an example of this on a global size.

In the Easter thread I made a statement very similar to this one and was ridiculed for it, I feel vindicated now.
?but also that our warming forecasts for the year 2040 are somehow more reliable than the weatherman's forecast for next week.?
Link
Judging from the media in recent months, the debate over global warming is now over. There has been a net warming of the earth over the last century and a half, and our greenhouse gas emissions are contributing at some level. Both of these statements are almost certainly true. What of it? Recently many people have said that the earth is facing a crisis requiring urgent action. This statement has nothing to do with science. There is no compelling evidence that the warming trend we've seen will amount to anything close to catastrophe. What most commentators?and many scientists?seem to miss is that the only thing we can say with certainly about climate is that it changes. The earth is always warming or cooling by as much as a few tenths of a degree a year; periods of constant average temperatures are rare. Looking back on the earth's climate history, it's apparent that there's no such thing as an optimal temperature?a climate at which everything is just right. The current alarm rests on the false assumption not only that we live in a perfect world, temperaturewise, but also that our warming forecasts for the year 2040 are somehow more reliable than the weatherman's forecast for next week.

A warmer climate could prove to be more beneficial than the one we have now. Much of the alarm over climate change is based on ignorance of what is normal for weather and climate. There is no evidence, for instance, that extreme weather events are increasing in any systematic way, according to scientists at the U.S. National Hurricane Center, the World Meteorological Organization and the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (which released the second part of this year's report earlier this month). Indeed, meteorological theory holds that, outside the tropics, weather in a warming world should be less variable, which might be a good thing.

In many other respects, the ill effects of warming are overblown. Sea levels, for example, have been increasing since the end of the last ice age. When you look at recent centuries in perspective, ignoring short-term fluctuations, the rate of sea-level rise has been relatively uniform (less than a couple of millimeters a year). There's even some evidence that the rate was higher in the first half of the twentieth century than in the second half. Overall, the risk of sea-level rise from global warming is less at almost any given location than that from other causes, such as tectonic motions of the earth's surface.

Many of the most alarming studies rely on long-range predictions using inherently untrustworthy climate models, similar to those that cannot accurately forecast the weather a week from now. Interpretations of these studies rarely consider that the impact of carbon on temperature goes down?not up?the more carbon accumulates in the atmosphere. Even if emissions were the sole cause of the recent temperature rise?a dubious proposition?future increases wouldn't be as steep as the climb in emissions.

Indeed, one overlooked mystery is why temperatures are not already higher. Various models predict that a doubling of CO2 in the atmosphere will raise the world's average temperature by as little as 1.5 degrees Celsius or as much as 4.5 degrees. The important thing about doubled CO2 (or any other greenhouse gas) is its "forcing"?its contribution to warming. At present, the greenhouse forcing is already about three-quarters of what one would get from a doubling of CO2. But average temperatures rose only about 0.6 degrees since the beginning of the industrial era, and the change hasn't been uniform?warming has largely occurred during the periods from 1919 to 1940 and from 1976 to 1998, with cooling in between. Researchers have been unable to explain this discrepancy.

Modelers claim to have simulated the warming and cooling that occurred before 1976 by choosing among various guesses as to what effect poorly observed volcanoes and unmeasured output from the sun have had. These factors, they claim, don't explain the warming of about 0.4 degrees C between 1976 and 1998. Climate modelers assume the cause must be greenhouse-gas emissions because they have no other explanation. This is a poor substitute for evidence, and simulation hardly constitutes explanation. Ten years ago climate modelers also couldn't account for the warming that occurred from about 1050 to 1300. They tried to expunge the medieval warm period from the observational record?an effort that is now generally discredited. The models have also severely underestimated short-term variability El Niño and the Intraseasonal Oscillation. Such phenomena illustrate the ability of the complex and turbulent climate system to vary significantly with no external cause whatever, and to do so over many years, even centuries.

Is there any point in pretending that CO2 increases will be catastrophic? Or could they be modest and on balance beneficial? India has warmed during the second half of the 20th century, and agricultural output has increased greatly. Infectious diseases like malaria are a matter not so much of temperature as poverty and public-health policies (like eliminating DDT). Exposure to cold is generally found to be both more dangerous and less comfortable.

Moreover, actions taken thus far to reduce emissions have already had negative consequences without improving our ability to adapt to climate change. An emphasis on ethanol, for instance, has led to angry protests against corn-price increases in Mexico, and forest clearing and habitat destruction in Southeast Asia. Carbon caps are likely to lead to increased prices, as well as corruption associated with permit trading. (Enron was a leading lobbyist for Kyoto because it had hoped to capitalize on emissions trading.) The alleged solutions have more potential for catastrophe than the putative problem. The conclusion of the late climate scientist Roger Revelle?Al Gore's supposed mentor?is worth pondering: the evidence for global warming thus far doesn't warrant any action unless it is justifiable on grounds that have nothing to do with climate.

Lindzen is the Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Meteorology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. His research has always been funded exclusively by the U.S. government. He receives no funding from any energy companies.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I started a new thread with this because I think the points raised in it are significant enough to warrant that. And unlike my ?Coldest Easter in years thread? this one is based on a strong scientific foundation.
In short this article shows that much of the Global Warming hysteria is misplaced or based on incomplete scientific evidence.

A few points he raises:

2. There was a warming trend between 1050 and 1300.

No one can explain why it happened.

But we know for sure it wasn?t caused by automobiles and green house gasses.

Never heard of Volcanos such as Pompeii or Krakatoa???

Pompeii

Try doing at least a little research yourself before such spewage.

You're hot air is worse than the volcanos of the past.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
His research has always been funded exclusively by the U.S. government. He receives no funding from any energy companies.

LIE! Giant lie! This guy is so far up the arse of the energy companies, it isn't even funny...

"For the most part the industry has relied on a small band of skeptics?Dr. Richard S. Lindzen, Dr. Pat Michaels, Dr. Robert Balling, Dr. Sherwood Idso, and Dr. S. Fred Singer, among others?who have proven extraordinarily adept at draining the issue of all sense of crisis. Through their frequent pronouncements in the press and on radio and television, they have helped to create the illusion that the question is hopelessly mired in unknowns. Most damaging has been their influence on decision makers; their contrarian views have allowed conservative Republicans such as Representative Dana Rohrabacher (R., Calif.) to dismiss legitimate research concerns as "liberal claptrap" and have provided the basis for the recent round of budget cuts to those government science programs designed to monitor the health of the planet.

Last May, Minnesota held hearings in St. Paul to determine the environmental cost of coal burning by state power plants. Three of the skeptics?Lindzen, Michaels, and Balling?were hired as expert witnesses to testify on behalf of Western Fuels Association, a $400 million consortium of coal suppliers and coal-fired utilities."

I thought I recognized the name.... someone on this forum tried to use a Mr. Ball's report to "disprove" global warming. Try again.

"Lindzen, for his part, charges oil and coal interests $2,500 a day for his consulting services"

Link to Harper's Magazine Transcript
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Hey PJ!

:music:
What you gon' do with all that junk?
All that junk inside your trunk?:music:

You really have to be kidding. I mean really.
 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
1,788
0
0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
His research has always been funded exclusively by the U.S. government. He receives no funding from any energy companies.

LIE! Giant lie! This guy is so far up the arse of the energy companies, it isn't even funny...

"For the most part the industry has relied on a small band of skeptics?Dr. Richard S. Lindzen, Dr. Pat Michaels, Dr. Robert Balling, Dr. Sherwood Idso, and Dr. S. Fred Singer, among others?who have proven extraordinarily adept at draining the issue of all sense of crisis. Through their frequent pronouncements in the press and on radio and television, they have helped to create the illusion that the question is hopelessly mired in unknowns. Most damaging has been their influence on decision makers; their contrarian views have allowed conservative Republicans such as Representative Dana Rohrabacher (R., Calif.) to dismiss legitimate research concerns as "liberal claptrap" and have provided the basis for the recent round of budget cuts to those government science programs designed to monitor the health of the planet.

Last May, Minnesota held hearings in St. Paul to determine the environmental cost of coal burning by state power plants. Three of the skeptics?Lindzen, Michaels, and Balling?were hired as expert witnesses to testify on behalf of Western Fuels Association, a $400 million consortium of coal suppliers and coal-fired utilities."

I thought I recognized the name.... someone on this forum tried to use a Mr. Ball's report to "disprove" global warming. Try again.

"Lindzen, for his part, charges oil and coal interests $2,500 a day for his consulting services"

Link to Harper's Magazine Transcript

Where does it say that the energy company funded his research? It says they hired him as a witness in a hearing.

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I started a new thread with this because I think the points raised in it are significant enough to warrant that. And unlike my ?Coldest Easter in years thread? this one is based on a strong scientific foundation.
In short this article shows that much of the Global Warming hysteria is misplaced or based on incomplete scientific evidence.

A few points he raises:

2. There was a warming trend between 1050 and 1300.

No one can explain why it happened.

But we know for sure it wasn?t caused by automobiles and green house gasses.

Never heard of Volcanos such as Pompeii or Krakatoa???

Pompeii

Try doing at least a little research yourself before such spewage.

You're hot air is worse than the volcanos of the past.

Neither of which occurred anytime near the timeframe he just stated...

Maybe you should read your own links next time, Ace.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
His research has always been funded exclusively by the U.S. government. He receives no funding from any energy companies.

LIE! Giant lie! This guy is so far up the arse of the energy companies, it isn't even funny...

"For the most part the industry has relied on a small band of skeptics?Dr. Richard S. Lindzen, Dr. Pat Michaels, Dr. Robert Balling, Dr. Sherwood Idso, and Dr. S. Fred Singer, among others?who have proven extraordinarily adept at draining the issue of all sense of crisis. Through their frequent pronouncements in the press and on radio and television, they have helped to create the illusion that the question is hopelessly mired in unknowns. Most damaging has been their influence on decision makers; their contrarian views have allowed conservative Republicans such as Representative Dana Rohrabacher (R., Calif.) to dismiss legitimate research concerns as "liberal claptrap" and have provided the basis for the recent round of budget cuts to those government science programs designed to monitor the health of the planet.

Last May, Minnesota held hearings in St. Paul to determine the environmental cost of coal burning by state power plants. Three of the skeptics?Lindzen, Michaels, and Balling?were hired as expert witnesses to testify on behalf of Western Fuels Association, a $400 million consortium of coal suppliers and coal-fired utilities."

I thought I recognized the name.... someone on this forum tried to use a Mr. Ball's report to "disprove" global warming. Try again.

"Lindzen, for his part, charges oil and coal interests $2,500 a day for his consulting services"

Link to Harper's Magazine Transcript

pwn3d


:laugh:
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
http://www.medialens.org/alerts/07/0313pure_propaganda_the.php
Journalist Ross Gelbspan noted that in May 1995, Richard Lindzen and Patrick Michaels were hired as expert witnesses to testify on behalf of Western Fuels Association, a $400 million consortium of coal suppliers and coal-fired utilities. Gelbspan said of Lindzen:
?I don't know very many supporters of Mr Lindzen who are not in the pay of the fossil fuel lobby. Dr Lindzen himself, his research is publicly funded, but Dr Lindzen makes, as he told me, $2,500 a day consulting with fossil fuel interests, and that includes his consulting with OPEC, his consulting with the Australian coal industry, his consulting with the US coal industry and so forth. That's not to say Dr Lindzen doesn't believe what he says, but it is to say that he stands in very sharp distinction to really just about virtually all of the climate scientists around the world.? (Tony Jones, ?Journalist puts global warming sceptics under the spotlight,? Australian Broadcasting Corporation, March 7, 2005; www.abc.net.au/lateline/ content/2005/s1318067.htm)

http://www.cspinet.org/integrity/watch/200702051.html
Richard Lindzen, who has ties to ExxonMobil-funded groups including the Annapolis Center for Science-Based Public Policy, Cato Institute, Tech Central Station and Marshall Institute

http://homepage.mac.com/herinst/envcrisis/greenhouse/scientists.html
Other scientists involved in the campaign to discredit greenhouse emission reduction targets include Dr Richard Lindzen, Dr Robert Balling, and Dr S. Fred Singer. Lindzen, who was also featured in the New Scientist article and in the Australian Institution of Engineers' Engineering World as an independent scientist is a consultant to the fossil fuel industry, charging $2500 a day for his services.

Robet Balling is also heavily funded by fossil fuel interests. Balling is reported in The Arizona Republic as saying that he had "received more like $700,000 over the past five years" from coal and oil interests in Great Britain, Germany and the US in the previous six years. A report by Ozone Action also details how Balling received research money from the Kuwait Government. His book, The Heated Debate, was commissioned by the Pacific Research Institute for Public Policy, a think tank opposed to environmental regulation. Balling was also on the advisory council for the Information Council on the Environment and the Greening Earth Society contributes to the World Climate Report.

Fred Singer is executive director of the think tank, the Science and Environmental Policy Project (SEPP). This project was originally set up in 1990 with the help of the Washington Institute for Values in Public Policy (funded by the Rev Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church) which provided it with free office space. (SEPP is no longer affiliated with Moon and receives its funding from various foundations.)


Some real winners there.

:roll:
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
His research has always been funded exclusively by the U.S. government. He receives no funding from any energy companies.

LIE! Giant lie! This guy is so far up the arse of the energy companies, it isn't even funny...

"For the most part the industry has relied on a small band of skeptics?Dr. Richard S. Lindzen, Dr. Pat Michaels, Dr. Robert Balling, Dr. Sherwood Idso, and Dr. S. Fred Singer, among others?who have proven extraordinarily adept at draining the issue of all sense of crisis. Through their frequent pronouncements in the press and on radio and television, they have helped to create the illusion that the question is hopelessly mired in unknowns. Most damaging has been their influence on decision makers; their contrarian views have allowed conservative Republicans such as Representative Dana Rohrabacher (R., Calif.) to dismiss legitimate research concerns as "liberal claptrap" and have provided the basis for the recent round of budget cuts to those government science programs designed to monitor the health of the planet.

Last May, Minnesota held hearings in St. Paul to determine the environmental cost of coal burning by state power plants. Three of the skeptics?Lindzen, Michaels, and Balling?were hired as expert witnesses to testify on behalf of Western Fuels Association, a $400 million consortium of coal suppliers and coal-fired utilities."

I thought I recognized the name.... someone on this forum tried to use a Mr. Ball's report to "disprove" global warming. Try again.

"Lindzen, for his part, charges oil and coal interests $2,500 a day for his consulting services"

Link to Harper's Magazine Transcript

Where does it say that the energy company funded his research? It says they hired him as a witness in a hearing.

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I started a new thread with this because I think the points raised in it are significant enough to warrant that. And unlike my ?Coldest Easter in years thread? this one is based on a strong scientific foundation.
In short this article shows that much of the Global Warming hysteria is misplaced or based on incomplete scientific evidence.

A few points he raises:

2. There was a warming trend between 1050 and 1300.

No one can explain why it happened.

But we know for sure it wasn?t caused by automobiles and green house gasses.

Never heard of Volcanos such as Pompeii or Krakatoa???

Pompeii

Try doing at least a little research yourself before such spewage.

You're hot air is worse than the volcanos of the past.

Neither of which occurred anytime near the timeframe he just stated...

Maybe you should read your own links next time, Ace.

They happened "before" the time period he stated which corresponds to the "scientific" study showing when Co2 levels rose in correlation to the Volcanic activity.

The levels don't rise "overnight" right after the eruption.

Now if you want to pin the rise in Co2 to Mt St Helens and the other couple of Volcanos (Kilaua in Hawaii, near Mexico City and others on the ring of fire) that have been super active the last Century then make your case.
 

imported_Shivetya

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2005
2,978
1
0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
His research has always been funded exclusively by the U.S. government. He receives no funding from any energy companies.

LIE! Giant lie! This guy is so far up the arse of the energy companies, it isn't even funny...

I don't care who pays his bills. If the person is attacked and not their facts that says more to me than anything else.

In other words.... history is history, who reveals it isn't the issue, it instead is - why did that happen back then and what does it mean in reference to us today?

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Never heard of Volcanos such as Pompeii or Krakatoa???

Pompeii

Try doing at least a little research yourself before such spewage.

You're hot air is worse than the volcanos of the past.

I guess this means we can blame Global Warming all on Mount Saint Helens?


Oh, the Kilauea Volcano puts out 8500 tons of CO2 PER DAY.... go find out how much the average family does per year
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Dave... Pompeii???? What are you smoking?
Pompeii is a ruined Roman city near modern Naples in the Italian region of Campania, in the territory of the comune of Pompei. It was destroyed, and completely buried, during a catastrophic eruption of the volcano Mount Vesuvius on 24 August 79 AD.
Yea it happened before this period, 1000 years before.
BTW Volcanos cause cooling because they block out the suns energy.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Shivetya
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
His research has always been funded exclusively by the U.S. government. He receives no funding from any energy companies.

LIE! Giant lie! This guy is so far up the arse of the energy companies, it isn't even funny...

I don't care who pays his bills. If the person is attacked and not their facts that says more to me than anything else.

In other words.... history is history, who reveals it isn't the issue, it instead is - why did that happen back then and what does it mean in reference to us today?

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Never heard of Volcanos such as Pompeii or Krakatoa???

Pompeii

Try doing at least a little research yourself before such spewage.

You're hot air is worse than the volcanos of the past.

I guess this means we can blame Global Warming all on Mount Saint Helens?

Fine, prove it.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
I love the people rushing in with their cut and paste attacks on this guy and his funding.

Why don't any of you question the points he actually makes?

Instead of attacking the messenger why not post some evidence that shows what he is saying is wrong.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I love the people rushing in with their cut and paste attacks on this guy and his funding.

Why don't any of you question the points he actually makes?

Instead of attacking the messenger why not post some evidence that shows what he is saying is wrong.

Gee. How dare one question a man's motives? :roll:

But seriously, if believing this hack makes you feel better, then by-all-means, propogandize yourself.
 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
1,788
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
...

Some real winners there.

:roll:

Uh, yeah? Still don't see where the energy companies are paying him to say what they want. His publicly funded research draws a conclusion that is contrary to the mainstream opinion, and it's to the benefit of the energy companies to hire him as a consultant.

How much money has Al Gore made off of his viewpoint? How many people have paid him for his input?

They happened "before" the time period he stated which corresponds to the "scientific" study showing when Co2 levels rose in correlation to the Volcanic activity.

The levels don't rise "overnight" right after the eruption.

Now if you want to pin the rise in Co2 to Mt St Helens and the other couple of Volcanos (Kilaua in Hawaii, near Mexico City and others on the ring of fire) that have been super active the last Century then make your case.

So you are saying that there is over a 1000 year lag time between Pompeii and the warming trend?

I guess all our man-mad CO2 won't have an effect until about 2900 AD then, right?
 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
1,788
0
0
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I love the people rushing in with their cut and paste attacks on this guy and his funding.

Why don't any of you question the points he actually makes?

Instead of attacking the messenger why not post some evidence that shows what he is saying is wrong.

Gee. How dare one question a man's motives? :roll:

But seriously, if believing this hack makes you feel better, then by-all-means, propogandize yourself.

If we were to question Al Gore's motives, we'd be tarred and feathered, no?
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Can we stop posting these useless threads, can we limit them to every other day?
 

imported_Shivetya

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2005
2,978
1
0
Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Fine, prove it.
[/quote]

I asking you to prove yours by making fun of your assertion. Of course why should I expect you to actually try? Thinking doesn't hurt, try it


 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,251
8
0
Dave and Shivetya, Volcanos cause cooling!!!!!!
Link
The Year Without a Summer, also known as the Poverty Year or Eighteen hundred and froze to death, was 1816, in which severe summer climate abnormalities destroyed crops in Northern Europe, the American Northeast and eastern Canada[1][2].

The unusual climatic aberrations of 1816 had the greatest effect on the American northeast, the Canadian Maritimes, Newfoundland, and northern Europe. Typically, the late spring and summer of the northeastern U.S. are relatively stable: temperatures (average of both day and night) average about 68?77 °F (20?25 °C), and rarely fall below 41 °F (5 °C). Summer snow is an extreme rarity, though May flurries sometimes occur.

In May of 1816[4], however, frost killed off most of the crops that had been planted, and in June two large snowstorms in eastern Canada and New England resulted in many human deaths. Nearly a foot of snow was observed in Quebec City in early June. In July and August, lake and river ice were observed as far south as Pennsylvania. Rapid, dramatic temperature swings were common, with temperatures sometimes reverting from normal or above-normal summer temperatures as high as 95 °F (35 °C) to near-freezing within hours. Even though farmers south of New England did succeed in bringing some crops to maturity, maize (corn) and other grain prices rose dramatically. Oats, for example, rose from 12¢ a bushel the previous year to 92¢ a bushel.

It is now generally thought that the aberrations occurred because of the 5 April ? 15 April 1815 volcanic eruptions of Mount Tambora[5][6] on the island of Sumbawa in the Dutch East Indies (modern-day Indonesia) which ejected immense amounts of volcanic dust into the upper atmosphere.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I love the people rushing in with their cut and paste attacks on this guy and his funding.

Why don't any of you question the points he actually makes?

Instead of attacking the messenger why not post some evidence that shows what he is saying is wrong.

Gee. How dare one question a man's motives? :roll:

But seriously, if believing this hack makes you feel better, then by-all-means, propogandize yourself.

If we were to question Al Gore's motives, we'd be tarred and feathered, no?

It's fine to question them, but you need substance.

It's really hard to believe that Gore has orchestrated a 30 year scheme to make a few million dollars at the expense of his entire social class, when he is already a multi-millionaire.
 

imported_Shivetya

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2005
2,978
1
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
His research has always been funded exclusively by the U.S. government. He receives no funding from any energy companies.

I thought I recognized the name.... someone on this forum tried to use a Mr. Ball's report to "disprove" global warming. Try again.

"Lindzen, for his part, charges oil and coal interests $2,500 a day for his consulting services"

Link to Harper's Magazine Transcript

pwn3d


:laugh:


Actually the link cites itself as references, how silly is that? Oh, its not a link to the original so why trust it? Oh, because it agrees with what you think is true eh?

and the followup you posted has lots of no-reference assertions. (and some of the sites are the last place I would look for valid information one way or another)
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,690
2,148
126
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I love the people rushing in with their cut and paste attacks on this guy and his funding.

Why don't any of you question the points he actually makes?

Instead of attacking the messenger why not post some evidence that shows what he is saying is wrong.

Gee. How dare one question a man's motives? :roll:

But seriously, if believing this hack makes you feel better, then by-all-means, propogandize yourself.

If we were to question Al Gore's motives, we'd be tarred and feathered, no?

It's fine to question them, but you need substance.

It's really hard to believe that Gore has orchestrated a 30 year scheme to make a few million dollars at the expense of his entire social class, when he is already a multi-millionaire.

Gore is an attention whore, just like any politician, spouting his global warming fear mongering keeps him in the spotlight. I'm sure he's also quite happy making a few mil in the process....

 

jrenz

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
1,788
0
0
Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie
Originally posted by: jrenz
Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I love the people rushing in with their cut and paste attacks on this guy and his funding.

Why don't any of you question the points he actually makes?

Instead of attacking the messenger why not post some evidence that shows what he is saying is wrong.

Gee. How dare one question a man's motives? :roll:

But seriously, if believing this hack makes you feel better, then by-all-means, propogandize yourself.

If we were to question Al Gore's motives, we'd be tarred and feathered, no?

It's fine to question them, but you need substance.

It's really hard to believe that Gore has orchestrated a 30 year scheme to make a few million dollars at the expense of his entire social class, when he is already a multi-millionaire.

Maybe he has a personal agenda, who knows. He's turned global warming into a religious cause, and dragged the media and politicians along with him. He's made a boat load off of his movie, and he owns a company that sells carbon credits, or something to that effect.

My point is that if the same standard of skepticism was applied to his motives as is being applied to *everyone* who speaks out about global warming, this would be a completely different debate.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
81
Originally posted by: jrenz
Maybe he has a personal agenda, who knows. He's turned global warming into a religious cause, and dragged the media and politicians along with him. He's made a boat load off of his movie, and he owns a company that sells carbon credits, or something to that effect.

My point is that if the same standard of skepticism was applied to his motives as is being applied to *everyone* who speaks out about global warming, this would be a completely different debate.
It's possible, but again, it's certainly not obvious. Gore doesn't need the money, and he has been talking this talk rather unprofitably for decades. It just seems like a remarkably elaborate scheme, considering he doesn't need the money.
 

blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
1,875
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
1. Models predict that doubling the CO2 in the air will raise temps 1.5 to 4.5 degrees. We have already seen a 75% increase in CO2, but the temps has only risen .6 degrees less than half the bottom point in these models. Perhaps the models are wrong?

Or there could be a lag time between rise in CO2 and rise in temperatures. Ultimately we don't know however its clearly not smart to just assume that they are wrong.

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
2. There was a warming trend between 1050 and 1300. No one can explain why it happened. But we know for sure it wasn?t caused by automobiles and green house gasses. Perhaps what we are seeing now is just another long term trend similar to that one.

We don't even know what causes the large warming cycles that have occured over the past hundreds of thousands of years. What we do know is that carbon dioxide concetrations and global temperature are strongly correlated, that current carbon dioxide temperatures are much higher than they should be (link), and that the earth is warming when it should be starting to cool.

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
3. El Nino and the Hurricane cycle show that weather patterns play out naturally over many years. With El Nino the temp of the water becomes hotter and colder all by itself with no man made interference; perhaps what we are seeing is an example of this on a global size.

The current data does not fit any cycle present in all of the data that has been collected.

The theory that humans are causing global warming is definately not a scientific fact however, given the current data, there are appears to be a significant probability that it is correct. Even if the probability was only 10% is it worth the risk to ignore it?
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I love the people rushing in with their cut and paste attacks on this guy and his funding.

Why don't any of you question the points he actually makes?

Instead of attacking the messenger why not post some evidence that shows what he is saying is wrong.
When you work for the biggest offender, your testimony on the subject is suspect. But it's interesting to note that you'll believe whatever crap some guy on Big Oil's payroll spews simply because it aligns with your anti-GW agenda.

How's that working out for you?
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |