Non-lethal weaponry

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pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,804
46
91
Regular guns, but use M4s chambered in 5.45x39 or some other cartridge not affiliated with US forces. That's how actual "black ops" are run. You don't carry non-lethal weaponry when your enemies are certainly carrying lethal weaponry. What's worse, the media realizing that someone killed someone important, along with a bunch of their guards, or a couple dead US commandos in a foreign country?


just use a gun not affiliated with the operator's home country. Like use an AK, Makarov, etc. Also make sure you use ammo from that country or another one as well, so use russian made ammo, not US ammo.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,518
223
106
If you had to execute a black ops task, and there was a reasonable risk of confrontation but leaving bodies behind was absolutely intolerable, what non-lethal weapon would be your number one choice for temporarily disabling hostiles?

I'm thinking rubber bullets would be the best choice, because I've heard that tasers can actually kill people. But then again, a taser would be more stealthy. I don't know if they have rubber bullets for sidearms.

Brilliant - take rubber bullets to what will inevitably become a gunfight! That'll result in an "absolutely intolerable" occurrence of a body being left behind - yours.

BTW, neither will temporarily disable anyone unless you plan on sticking around and babysitting.
 

janas19

Platinum Member
Nov 10, 2011
2,313
1
0
Regular guns, but use M4s chambered in 5.45x39 or some other cartridge not affiliated with US forces. That's how actual "black ops" are run. You don't carry non-lethal weaponry when your enemies are certainly carrying lethal weaponry. What's worse, the media realizing that someone killed someone important, along with a bunch of their guards, or a couple dead US commandos in a foreign country?

Ok, thats probably how it generally runs in special forces, but I guess I meant "black ops" more in terms of CIA. For example, if there had to be a CIA team posing as the enemy to create a political reason to go to war, but at the same time keeping casualties to an absolute minimum. For example, a "Body of Proof" type cover-up. Say a team of CIA agents poses as the Iranian special commandos Quds and infiltrates a target in Israel in order to steal classified documents and create a provovation for war. It sounds ridiculous but its actually very plausible. Obviously, the agents want to get the documents but they actually dont want to kill people. So thats why Im wondering what non-lethal weapon they would select for this type of mission.





Taser, or tranquilizers as suggested.

Or just hire ninjas to put the people into a vehicle and transport them alive. Because they're ninjas, they'll never actually be seen during this process. The people will just suddenly find themselves in the back of a big van and have no clue what just happened.

Ever since I saw American Ninja on G4 I've thought the Army should create a specially trained ninja unit. Seriously
 

Vic Vega

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2010
4,535
3
0
That's the whole point you asshat. If you're running black ops in a foreign nation with high-level targets, and the press gets word of a diplpmat killing the publicity could ruin the whole operation, blow peoples covers, basically make everything go south.

If it was a snatch-and-grab type operation, I'm thinking rock salt slugs in a 12 gauge shotgun would be good. But if you had to do some espionage you wouldn't want to be carrying a shotgun around, so it has to be a sidearm.

I can see you've thought this through Mr. Call of Duty.
 

jlee

Lifer
Sep 12, 2001
48,518
223
106
janas19 said:
Ok, thats probably how it generally runs in special forces, but I guess I meant "black ops" more in terms of CIA. For example, if there had to be a CIA team posing as the enemy to create a political reason to go to war, but at the same time keeping casualties to an absolute minimum. For example, a "Body of Proof" type cover-up. Say a team of CIA agents poses as the Iranian special commandos Quds and infiltrates a target in Israel in order to steal classified documents and create a provovation for war. It sounds ridiculous but its actually very plausible. Obviously, the agents want to get the documents but they actually dont want to kill people. So thats why Im wondering what non-lethal weapon they would select for this type of mission.
Pay off someone to hand them over, and then start a rumor that they were stolen.
 

BladeVenom

Lifer
Jun 2, 2005
13,365
16
0
The problem with sleeping gas is getting the dose right. Too much and you could easily kill your seriously injure your target.

Like the Russians did a few years back, when they accidentally killed 129 of the hostages they were trying to rescue.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Ok, thats probably how it generally runs in special forces, but I guess I meant "black ops" more in terms of CIA. For example, if there had to be a CIA team posing as the enemy to create a political reason to go to war, but at the same time keeping casualties to an absolute minimum. For example, a "Body of Proof" type cover-up. Say a team of CIA agents poses as the Iranian special commandos Quds and infiltrates a target in Israel in order to steal classified documents and create a provovation for war. It sounds ridiculous but its actually very plausible. Obviously, the agents want to get the documents but they actually dont want to kill people. So thats why Im wondering what non-lethal weapon they would select for this type of mission.

Without getting into what I consider the utter implausibility of your scenario, did you consider that hitting someone with a non-lethal weapon is going to leave just as much evidence as a body? Except now the body might be able to remember vital details leading up to being incapacitated.
 

janas19

Platinum Member
Nov 10, 2011
2,313
1
0
Without getting into what I consider the utter implausibility of your scenario, did you consider that hitting someone with a non-lethal weapon is going to leave just as much evidence as a body? Except now the body might be able to remember vital details leading up to being incapacitated.

Well, trying to run a mission like Operation Eagle Claw also seems implausible, but they did that too didn't they?
 

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,017
62
91
As a certified instructor for OC pepper spray and the collapsible baton, and with plenty of experience with less lethal shotgun rounds and tazers... I'll keep my answer to myself.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,236
12,563
136
Non-lethal weapons? ROFL! Not if it's my ass on the line.

There may be times when you need to avoid killing, but in those cases, it's best to just avoid detection...and quietly kill anyone you have to. (don't forget to carefully hide the bodies)
Firing a gun of any kind, rifle, shotgun, handgun is going to attract attention...and just because YOU used non-lethal rounds, doesn't mean your adversaries are going to do so.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
No. I don't even know what that is.

You referenced the audacity of an entirely failed operation, Operation Eagle Claw.

If anything, you should look at the Osama Bin Laden raid. It violated the sovereignty of a nuclear armed nation with which are relations are already precarious. Yet still, we used real guns, left bodies AND a helicopter behind.
 

janas19

Platinum Member
Nov 10, 2011
2,313
1
0
You referenced the audacity of an entirely failed operation, Operation Eagle Claw.

If anything, you should look at the Osama Bin Laden raid. It violated the sovereignty of a nuclear armed nation with which are relations are already precarious. Yet still, we used real guns, left bodies AND a helicopter behind.

Ok ok, alright I'm not trying to get into an argument. I just wanted to figure out the non-lethal problem and they helped me out a lot. That's all.
 

Broheim

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2011
4,587
2
81
there's no such thing as non-lethal weapons, unless of course you're talking about toy guns, there's only lethal and less-lethal weapons.

it's called less-lethal because any weapon designed to incapacitate can also potentially kill, either by blunt force trauma or by causing and/or aggrevating a wide variety of medical conditions.
 
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