NON_POLITICAL China Coronavirus THREAD

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repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,544
3,471
136
Michigan is 'Shelter in place" starting tonight. The Governor took several shots at the Federal Government too.

Massachusetts too. I’m debating going to grab a few gallons of paint and some other home project supplies. I certainly haven’t been working full days
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,526
27,832
136
Ford and GM entering the ventilator business should be interesting. "Introducing the 2020 Ford F-160 Ventimax 1.5L Flem-o-flux Deep Stroke Power Throb w/ SYNC." Cut to scene of patient hooked to ventilator in back of Ford truck climbing mountain of caskets.
 
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ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,689
2,811
126
Ford and GM entering the ventilator business should be interesting. "Introducing the 2020 Ford F-160 Ventimax 1.5L Flem-o-flux Deep Stroke Power Throb w/ SYNC." Cut to scene of patient hooked to ventilator in back of Ford truck climbing mountain of caskets.
I kind of agree with Elon Musk on building ventilator. Ford, GM, and Tesla can't build ventilators instantly. It will take them weeks to get ready and ramp up production. By the time we get the needed ventilators from Ford, GM and Tesla, we might not need them anymore. We'll be late to the game and end up with tens of thousands of extra ventilators we don't need and have paid for. I guess we'll just keep them somewhere and save it for the next crisis.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,135
2,445
126
I kind of agree with Elon Musk on building ventilator. Ford, GM, and Tesla can't build ventilators instantly. It will take them weeks to get ready and ramp up production. By the time we get the needed ventilators from Ford, GM and Tesla, we might not need them anymore. We'll be late to the game and end up with tens of thousands of extra ventilators we don't need and have paid for. I guess we'll just keep them somewhere and save it for the next crisis.

I am curious who's going to build the best ventilator, though. Tesla might have an advantage, considering that Elon can bring in some SpaceX engineers who have been building spacecraft life support systems for a living.

They'll definitely get more press coverage than Ford or GM will in the tech press, anyway.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,577
4,659
136
I kind of agree with Elon Musk on building ventilator. Ford, GM, and Tesla can't build ventilators instantly. It will take them weeks to get ready and ramp up production. By the time we get the needed ventilators from Ford, GM and Tesla, we might not need them anymore. We'll be late to the game and end up with tens of thousands of extra ventilators we don't need and have paid for. I guess we'll just keep them somewhere and save it for the next crisis.


Exactly; if only we had done that before.
 
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purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,931
5,802
126
Maryland governor announced tonight at 5pm as have a shelter in place ordered. Glad I ran out this morning to get my new door at Home Depot that I ordered a month ago and finally came in, and hit up the grocery store so I shouldn't have to go out for at least a week now.
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
856
126
Started this with an already-sputtering bottle of Purell Advanced hand sanitizer but finally got to the same point with one of my generic Kroger bottles that I bought for the outbreak.

If you're like me then you are annoyed by the large amount of hand sanitizer left behind when a bottle sputters and stops dispensing. I used a bit of my 99.9% isopropyl (PUREtronics Electronics Cleaning Grade) to loosen it up and liquefy enough pour it into a near-full bottle where mixing it makes it gel again. I realized that this slightly increases the potency as well, so you might want to add a bit in to stretch your bottles too.

Since then I redistributed the remaining sanitizer back into the empty bottles so I can have them in more places (door, kitchen, living room, each car, etc), which removed the need to ever add alcohol (for now), but I still figured I'd share for anyone else trying to make use of the remnants.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,841
8,307
136
I get that from time to time on their videos, mostly.

It's that story, yes: as i said in a previous post, if IOC and Japan think they'll have Olympics this year, they're deluding themselves.

Actually, there's a risk it won't be held next year either, depending on how grave the economic consequences of dealing with this virus actually become.
Yes, and I'd say how dire the epidemiological situation is next year as well. I mean 1 1/2 years from now, who knows if this will actually be in the rear view mirror? We may still have the bogeyman sitting in the back seat!

Saw this hashtag at Facebook just now (I hardly ever go there, but I was mentioned so had a look):

#StayTheFuckHome
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,841
8,307
136
Hol' up hol' up...

Essential business: landscapers
Non-essential business: barber shops

Anyone else see the contradiction? I can do without the excessive noise for the next month or two.
The one positive thing I noticed with 9/11 was the absence of any aircraft. It was eerily quiet.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,841
8,307
136


"“Everyone needs to act as if they have the virus right now. So, test or no test, we need you to understand you could be spreading it to someone else. Or you could be getting it from someone else. Stay at home,” he said."

#StayTheFuckHome
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
856
126
The one positive thing I noticed with 9/11 was the absence of any aircraft. It was eerily quiet.
Well I, for one, don't consider that a positive thing at all. I live near the busiest airport in the world, so I definitely noticed.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,526
27,832
136
With reduced traffic and smog we could see the sunrise on the desert ranges northwest of Tucson from our living room window for the first time in fifteen years.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,841
8,307
136
I am curious who's going to build the best ventilator, though. Tesla might have an advantage, considering that Elon can bring in some SpaceX engineers who have been building spacecraft life support systems for a living.

They'll definitely get more press coverage than Ford or GM will in the tech press, anyway.
My neighbor, whose wife is buying my groceries, manages (with others, I believe) a large machine shop that does some work for Musk (SpaceX or Tesla, don't remember). I think he's gonna be busy if Tesla gets into making ventilators.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
8,388
126
Massachusetts too. I’m debating going to grab a few gallons of paint and some other home project supplies. I certainly haven’t been working full days
i'm told that home depot was really busy the other day, and it's running at reduced staff. long checkout lines.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,907
12,376
126
www.anyf.ca
Didn't work out so well for Hong Kong:


Yeah I think it's going to help but as soon as everything gets back to normal we'll just see more cases. Really a tough spot to figure out the right balance. Personally I think we should go with this social distancing thing for a month or two, then slowly ease back to normal life and open stuff but keep restricting out of town travel (that's kinda hard to enforce but it can at least be a huge recommendation). Then slowly allow that but only within the same province, then within the country. I say restrict international for at least a year if more and that is easier to enforce. Other than essential stuff like product shipments etc, which even now are not restricted. That kinda has to keep going.

Thing is, for this to work every country needs to be onboard as well. Not easy to do. And even then, it only takes 1 case to slip through and we're back to square one.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Wow, reading this thread you'd think the sky was falling. People need to calm the F down and understand that our reaction is far worse than what this virus is capable of. The only reason why NY is the epicenter is because it's very aggressively testing people. If it wasn't testing, it wouldn't be the epicenter because no one would know. Anyway, it's all overblown and I'm glad that even doctors, scientists and now policymakers and the President are starting to realize what this overreaction is doing to our economy. IMHO, leaders will start to relax this overreaction and things will start to get back to normal because, otherwise, our civilization will be crippled. For those that have congenital or age-induced diseases, it's a bad time for you. For the rest of you who let yourselves go weight or health-wise, this should be a wake-up call. If you make it, eat right. Exercise and live a better life. If you don't, you did it to yourself. It's time the President call in the dogs at the state level and let this Chinese virus take its natural course. Otherwise, it'll be good money chasing after bad. Not worth it, IMHO..

link

By
Jon Hilsenrath and
Stephanie Armour
March 23, 2020 9:29 am ET

The nation’s costly fight against the coronavirus pandemic is stirring debate inside the Trump administration and beyond about how much economic loss the country can bear to save an unknowable number of lives infected by the disease.
Millions of jobs were lost within days and millions more are projected to vanish as whole industries grind to a halt, streets empty and people hunker down at home to limit the spread of disease. Trillions of dollars are projected to be lost in economic output; trillions have been wiped out in stock market value; and trillions in government debt will be accumulated in the months ahead to help support households and businesses struggling to pay bills.
“WE CANNOT LET THE CURE BE WORSE THAN THE PROBLEM ITSELF,” President Trump said in a tweet Monday morning. He went on to suggest he might dial back a federal push for the nation to practice social distancing for 15 days. “AT THE END OF THE 15 DAY PERIOD, WE WILL MAKE A DECISION AS TO WHICH WAY WE WANT TO GO!”
Former Goldman Sachs chief executive Lloyd Blankfein made similar comments on Twitter. “Extreme measures to flatten the virus ‘curve’ is sensible-for a time-to stretch out the strain on health infrastructure. But crushing the economy, jobs and morale is also a health issue-and beyond,” he said.

The stakes have rarely been higher for the nation: The risk of death to millions, and the cost of millions of jobs and potential bankruptcies if businesses and households can’t earn cash flow to pay their bills.
Private-sector economists project the toll of the crisis will include 5 million lost jobs and $1.5 trillion in lost economic output. U.S. stocks have already lost $12 trillion in value since mid-February, and globally losses have shredded $26 trillion from investor portfolios. Meanwhile an economic support package is being forged in Congress which economists estimate will double the federal budget deficit to near $2 trillion this year and possibly next too.
At the same time, a widely cited study by Imperial College London warns the U.S. faces 2.2 million deaths from the virus if it does nothing to stop its spread.
Lawrence Summers, a Harvard economics professor and former U.S. Treasury Secretary, said much of this economic toll would be hitting the U.S. even without government-mandated restrictions. Fears of contagion would likely be driving people on their own to avoid restaurants, airplanes and ballparks, even without government mandates, such as mandates in New York and California that people stay home.
“A large part of the dislocation is caused by the coronavirus and not by the policy response caused by the coronavirus,” Mr. Summers said. “I don’t think we need to turn this into a dollars-versus-lives thing at this stage.” He said the best choice was likely addressing the health risk, treating the economic damage, and then working to prevent future pandemics.
Vice President Mike Pence, who is coordinating the coronavirus task force, has been working the phones and probing leading epidemiologists and physicians about how to craft a long-term national strategy, according to two people familiar with the discussions. His questions have echoed that of a growing number of Americans: When—and how—will this end?

Some are panning, and even defying, lockdowns as draconian. Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis refused to close beaches for spring break. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce urged Mr. Trump to declare a wide range of business as essential to get the nation through the pandemic, including banks, hardware stores, plumbers, dry cleaners, taxis and laundromats, among others.
Even among scientists who study pandemics, some are starting to wonder about the cost of fighting the disease. Michael Osterholm, a University of Minnesota disease specialist, stunned some in the science community when he suggested letting people at low risk of serious disease continue working to keep the economy going.
“This is not like a Minneapolis blizzard that blows through,” he told The Wall Street Journal. “It’s like a Minneapolis winter that lasts for months.”

The White House based much of its decision to urge social distancing—limiting people to small gatherings, shutting businesses and schools and ensuring people keep 6 feet apart—on the Imperial College London report this month that estimated 2.2 million deaths would occur without it, in addition to isolation of infected people and quarantines of their family members.
Neil Ferguson, the epidemiologist who worked on the report, now is infected with coronavirus.
Countries facing the same dilemma are responding in different ways. Italy gradually locked down parts of the country and now has closed all but essential services and ordered people to stay home except for work or health necessities. The U.K. government had avoided the strict measures taken elsewhere until Friday, when it ordered all bars, pubs, restaurants, cafes, gyms and theaters to close. India on Sunday tested a nationwide one-day voluntary shutdown, in which people were asked to stay in their homes and most businesses were shut.
In the U.S., health experts have urged continued shutdowns until the country builds the ability for massive testing to identify and quarantine infected individuals. But the country is so far behind in its testing ability, with shortages of critical chemicals and supplies looming, that it remains unclear whether it could take months or even a year to implement the testing strategies that enabled Singapore and South Korea to contain cases while keeping major swaths of their economies running.
Economists say the brewing debate about the economic cost of fighting the coronavirus is a little like the global debate about climate change. In both cases scientists predict widespread human loss without action, but the action requires economic sacrifice.
The critical difference between the climate debate and coronavirus is that the climate debate has already played out glacially for years. The consequences of the problem and policy responses are predicted to occur gradually in coming decades. With the coronavirus, these trade-offs are being made in just a few weeks, with the human loss and economic toll happening all at once.
“It is the same thing with climate change, but on a totally different time scale,” said James Hammitt, a professor of economics and decision-making at Harvard’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health.
One corner of economics has developed tools that researchers say can help get at the scale of what the nation confronts. These “value of statistical life” measures estimate what people are willing to pay to reduce the probability of dying.

Economists derive the numbers from surveys and through inferences from individual work choices, for instance by looking at how much added compensation people demand for doing high-risk jobs like logging, deep-sea fishing or roofing.
Value-of-statistical-life measures are routinely used by the federal government to calculate the costs and benefits of a wide range of health and environmental regulations, which also come with trade-offs between public safety and economic cost.
W. Kip Viscusi, a Vanderbilt University economics and law professor and leader in these valuations, estimates the value of a statistical life at around $10 million. The number means a U.S. community of 100,000 people would on average pay $100 per person to reduce the risk that one person in the community would randomly be killed by some threat. The community is essentially paying $10 million to reduce the risk that one among it will die.
Even under normal circumstances, such measures are complicated by many factors. For example, should the life of a child be given the same value as the life of an octogenarian? How do you account for age differences for a disease that affects the elderly most? Is a life in Laos worth as much as in the U.S.? Most people would say a life in either country is of equal value, but the calculations are based on how much a person would pay to reduce the risk of death, and because incomes are lower in Laos than in the U.S., the statistical value of life there is lower too.
In this case, the unknowns are especially large, notes Joseph Aldy, a Harvard professor and former adviser to President Barack Obama. The mortality rate of the virus itself is unknown. Because testing has been especially sparse in the U.S., nobody knows how widespread it is in the population, or how aggressively it transfers from one person to another.
“It is hard to even assess probabilities,” he said.
Mr. Viscusi noted another conundrum. Economic dislocation causes its own health problems.
“Mortality rates rise after periods of unemployment and income loss,” he said. “Even if health is your only concern and financial costs are not considered, adopting prevention efforts that limit the adverse effects on income is important.”
The U.S. should be willing to bear substantial costs to overcome this virus, because it is something that can cascade out of control, said Mr. Hammitt at Harvard.
How much cost?
“I don’t know,” he said.

—Gwynn Guilford and Josh Mitchell contributed to this article.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
One other thing, for solitary people like me, going into an empty office is a lifesaver. Luckily, it's just a train or Citibike-ride away. I love my family and all but there is no way I'd want to be cooped up with anyone for hours and days on end. I've done nothing to deserve such a punishment. Not sure how my wife feels but my productivity and sanity are on another level. Unfortunately, I'm now the errand boy and places like Trader Joe's have a line that stretches around the block and regular supermarkets are running low periodically.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,841
8,307
136
Exactly; if only we had done that before.
Yeah, really... we have military probably trillions worth. We should have a couple million ventilators at the ready. But only have less than 200,000 right now. A single fighter jet can cost $100,000,000 to manufacture. How many ventilators could we have made for that sum?
 
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