North Korea & Nukes - Solution(s)?

[kingtas]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: kingtas
The point is we are not going to sell nukes to some mad men who will use them.

Prove it. We've armed many of the lunatic regime we now seek to oppose and/or overthrow. Maybe not nukes (as far as we know), but it's a matter of degree only. Furthermore, who says we aren't the madmen? Again, I think what we're at is an impass based on fundamental beliefs. *shrug*

Well, I for one would much rather see a conventional explosion in my back yard versus a nuclear explosion, politics aside.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

The line between internal affaris and foreign affairs is thin to the point of invisibility when you speak of WMDs. By your logic, NK could arm itself with nuclear ICBM and you won't be able to do sh!t about it - just step aside and see how they get the power the end your civilization at will. That doesn't hold water, no matter how you put it.
US has practiced the attitude of keeping its nose in its own affairs up until WWII, where it failed miserably. US is not the bubble you want to think it is. It's still on earth.

If America can be allowed nukes, other nations can be allowed the same nukes. That's my core point this entire time. We aren't special. We are the only nation to use nukes, we are the most recent nation to invade another (as far as I know). If ANYONE should be kept from keeping a powerful military based on current and past actions it's the United States. No, the US has NOT minded it's own affairs before WWII. Let's start with the eradication of the Indians (either a sovereign nation or group of sovereigns), then move on to Mexico, South and Central America, etc. America has, since day one, tried to be the world's bully (and largely succeeded).

All I want is equal treatment. Innocent until proven guilty, and held to the same standards. The US has no right to claim superiority in anything, except perhaps in claiming superiority.

Again you put your own nation (I assume you're an American) in the same moral level with Iran and NK. That's a good example of post-modern, universal justice endorsing sense.

Put aside Nukes for a moment; How about the F22? There's a ban on selling it to most of the world. Do you think that's justified, or should everyone be entitled to the same weapons?

My point is that this is not, and should not be a fair game. As an American you should put the wellbeing of America - your own people, family and life - before the wellbeing of others. Letting others obtain nukes does nothing to improve your chances of survival.

US offers one way of existance, the way of freedom (cheesy, err). There are alternatives, like the Chinese way or the NK way, or even the Iranian way. I feel that we should both be thankful to the American way that gave us the freedom we have and wish for it's survival over other ideologies, even if that takes unfair advantages (like WMD).

I'd expect the Chinese and NK sto do the same towards their own ideologies, and that's just fine.

 

[kingtas]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: kingtas
The point is we are not going to sell nukes to some mad men who will use them.

Not directly. We sure didnt have a problem giving NK what it needed to build them though, including reactors...what, only 12 years ago? And funded it through what....2002?

/chuckle

Heck, we've armed a lot of are current enemies. I said that about the middle east. But I still don't like the idea of countries who might not use them but will sell them to the highest bidder who will certainly love to use them on me.

 

[Ghostlaw]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: kingtas
The point is we are not going to sell nukes to some mad men who will use them.

Not directly. We sure didnt have a problem giving NK what it needed to build them though, including reactors...what, only 12 years ago? And funded it through what....2002?

/chuckle

The reactors we were building do not allow you to use them to make nuke weapons, that is why WE were giving them to N Korea, and were offering the same tech or Iraq and Iran I think. It is a safe way of helping them get more power without helping them get Nukes.

What happened to my name and post count? hmmmm

 

[ProfJohn]

It must be the electro magnetic pulse from the blast.

Or else a new Chinese secret weapon ala the laser thread.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
It must be the electro magnetic pulse from the blast.

Or else a new Chinese secret weapon ala the laser thread.

heh yeah. There is a thread about this in forum issues

 

[Hacp]

North Korea crits USA for 10k damage.

 

[Infohawk]

A) Recognize that we can't have nuclear policy that other countries are going to help up out with unless it is consistent. We can't just get mad about NK and Iran when Israel has about as many nukes as Great Britain. Only if we can develop a universal and fair nuclear policy do we have any chance of putting the genie back in the bottle.
B) Recognize that the nuclear genie is and has been out of the bottle for a while. Once countries like Pakistan and Israel have them, it doesn't make sense for other countries not to have them.
C) Develop anti-missile systems and nuclear warhead detection systems (for unconventional/terror plots)

The world has gone nuclear. We can try and work with everyone so it makes no sense for people to nuke each other (like a current state beteween France and Great Britain) or we should be prepared for nuclear war (and I think science can eventually give us a chance at protecting ourselves from icmbs).

 

[rchiu]

Solution(s)? Simple

1) invade NK and remove Kim by force and hope NK ppl throw roses and flower at you or bleed billions like in Iraq or
2) Keep calling Kim/NK names like Axis of Evil/Evil doer but do nothing to stop Kim from building nuclear weapon or sell it to the highest bidder or
3) Have China take the lead in the negotiation and let China do what's in their best interests, including something like a joint weapon development program and forming a united front fighting evil American empire or
4) Deal with NK yourselves, give into some of Kim's demand but make sure that you actually build stuff and spend money on some thing NK people will benefit from. At the same time, get NK to agree on weapon monitoring program in exchange and if you build nuclear power plants, insist on having UN people stationed there. You also open up trade, education and information exchange and hope to bring NK people to modern civilization.

 

[slash196]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Todd33

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

But you are claiming there is not moral high ground to take an aggressive stance here, right? You should be able to tell apart good from bad.
The stories about concentration camps and mass murders appeaing not too long ago are enough to put NK in the "bad" side.

Good and bad? What is this the 2nd grade? We are talking about international relations here - we are all good and bad, depends on who you ask. Are we to tell NK they are "bad" and then what? Pakistan is good harboring terrorist? China has no human rights violations?

I guess we could always fall back on "Do as we say, not as we do.."

YES, there is good and bad. For someone who lives in the free world and enjoys what it has to offer, a Nuke in the hands of NK is bad. There's no other way to twist it around.

Pakistan isn't better, granted, but the fact that you're unable to treat one shouldn't grant immunity to the other.

While I don't like lunatics having nuclear weapons, I am just as scared (or moreso) of them being in the hands of neocons. Personally I'd like all nukes destroyed. If not then America needs to quit thinking we're in charge of the planet. Every sovereign nation has the same rights. Period. At least until they do something to lose those rights...like say invading another sovereign nation under false pretenses...oh wait. Well then until they actually use nuclear weapons...ooops.

The ease with which some people deposit their own and their nations fate in the hands of madmen such as Kim Jong Yil and Achmadinghad keeps amazing me.
Assuming Nazi germany didn't invade any other sovereign country, just kept arming itself and killing minorities, disabled and gay, would it still have the same rights in your opinion?

Or to put it more clearly, what exactly should a country do to have these rights revoked? Are the actions, as mass murders, of Kim Jong Yil enough? How about Saddam and his use of chemical weapons?

I'll never put myself in the same moral level such as the scums from Iran and NK. First of all, because it's my survival or theirs; Second, I was educated to cherish the values of the free world and these countries are the everything but.

When you put yourself on the same moral grounds as loons like Saddam, Achmadinaghed and Kim Jong Yil, you should second guess your judgement.

BAHAHAHAHA. The atrocities of western 'civilization' are well documented and every bit as vile and contemptable as any other...the only difference is that we did ours a while ago and some lesser developed nations are just now catching up.

We don't have a right to go into any other nation, unless it's to stop aggression beyond their borders. If people within a country are being abused then they need to step up and put a stop to it themselves. We did, and it's why we cherish our freedom today. No citizen will respect a government that they didn't fight for. If the country commits civil rights violations, fine, sanction them. Withhold anything but humanitarian aid. But don't try to overthrow them, don't meddle in their affairs, and sure as hell don't invade them. Our rights end at our borders. Period.

You make an excellent point PrinceofWands.

 

[slash196]

Originally posted by: kingtas
The point is we are not going to sell nukes to some mad men who will use them.

Ever heard of Israel?

 

[kingtas]

Originally posted by: slash196

Originally posted by: kingtas
The point is we are not going to sell nukes to some mad men who will use them.

Ever heard of Israel?

They used a nuke?

And you know as well as I, that they would only use a nuke in self defense and not because they wish to "wipe a country off the map" or because their religion is not acceptable. And I really don't think that they would sell them, either.

 

[piasabird]

North Korea can not just invade South Korea.

First you have to know what kind of countryside is in the north part of South Korea. There are very very very steep mountains and deep valleys that have been terraced for growing rice. In the center of the valleys are tank traps. In strategic areas are pill boxes already built and ready for occupation. It would be a long hard struggle to get through the guantlet.

I have seen all of this with my own eyes. I have stood on the DMZ outpost and looked through binoculars at people looking through their binoculars at me.

Also there is a bounty waiting for anyone who catches or shoots infiltrators from the North. In South Korea we have tanks, Attack Helicopters, Artillery, Huey helicopters for moving supplies, A rather large Air Force Base, and A-10'S to attack their tanks. Besides that we could supply South Korea with Planes from Japan, and the phillipines. We regularly conduct Air War Games in the region to practice against jet fighters from Alaska.
Then we have the Navy. Korea is a rather small country and ships could easily bombard from the sea or send in cruise missles and sorties of fighter planes. Clearly North Korea could be destroyed in about a week. We may only have 37,000 troops, but every man in korea has been trained in their Army and is considered a reservist.

Things we could do.

Blockade China and Korea.

Park our Nuclear submarines, destoyers and Missle cruisers off their coast and along the coast of China.

Tell China if they use a nuke we will fire all of our nuclear missles into China from short range from our nuclear subs.

Revoke China's right to import goods into the USA.

Refuse to pay our debt to China.

Cut off all trade to Russia.

We could just do nothing and refuse to recognize anything they do. They live for us to bribe them not to be aggressive. So, we should just tell everyone in the UN, that if they give aid to north korea that we will retaliate. Or we could just let South Korea Handle it.

We could tell South Korea if they send North Korea any food or aid that we will pull out.

We could give aid to Mongolia by supplying them with missles, Stingers, Anti-Tank Weapons, Artillery, Ammunition, Sniper Rifles, Special Forces Troops, Food and other supplies.


We could drop born again missionaries from the sky with a never ending supply of bibles.

Invade them with Harri Krishners.

Drop Candy laced with opium for the children.

Bombard them with 1,000,000 turkey dinners.

Send Brittney to live there.

 

[DealMonkey]

Let's start by sitting down face-to-face, nation-to-nation with NK and explain that we don't want to attack/destroy their country.

We can then offer them a package of incentives to open themselves up and start behaving like a responsible citizen on the world stage. We can offer them UN membership, open trade agreements, financial assistance, humanitarian relief for its citizens, a more open border/releationship with South Korea. And on and on. There's so much they want/need from the rest of the world and so we actually have a lot of leverage. Obviously, we want them to discontinue their nuclear weapons program. We want them to stop test firing missiles and provoking their neighbors.

This is by no means a comprehensive plan, but it has a much better chance at working than the idiotic approach we've been trying for 50+ years.

"Closed" governments like NK thrive on the sort of brain dead hostile "foreign policy" we've seen out of the Bush Administration thus far and it just encourages them to stay closed. Getting them to open up would reap benefits because once they're part of the global economy (assuming we got that far) there's a built-in disincentive to act like a crazy sh!thead all the time. It has (sort of) worked for China and I think given enough effort and time, it could work for North Korea too.

 

[DarkKnight69]

Originally posted by: piasabird
North Korea can not just invade South Korea.

First you have to know what kind of countryside is in the north part of South Korea. There are very very very steep mountains and deep valleys that have been terraced for growing rice. In the center of the valleys are tank traps. In strategic areas are pill boxes already built and ready for occupation. It would be a long hard struggle to get through the guantlet.

I have seen all of this with my own eyes. I have stood on the DMZ outpost and looked through binoculars at people looking through their binoculars at me.

Also there is a bounty waiting for anyone who catches or shoots infiltrators from the North. In South Korea we have tanks, Attack Helicopters, Artillery, Huey helicopters for moving supplies, A rather large Air Force Base, and A-10'S to attack their tanks. Besides that we could supply South Korea with Planes from Japan, and the phillipines. We regularly conduct Air War Games in the region to practice against jet fighters from Alaska.
Then we have the Navy. Korea is a rather small country and ships could easily bombard from the sea or send in cruise missles and sorties of fighter planes. Clearly North Korea could be destroyed in about a week. We may only have 37,000 troops, but every man in korea has been trained in their Army and is considered a reservist.

Things we could do.

Blockade China and Korea.

Park our Nuclear submarines, destoyers and Missle cruisers off their coast and along the coast of China.

Tell China if they use a nuke we will fire all of our nuclear missles into China from short range from our nuclear subs.

Revoke China's right to import goods into the USA.

Refuse to pay our debt to China.

Cut off all trade to Russia.

We could just do nothing and refuse to recognize anything they do. They live for us to bribe them not to be aggressive. So, we should just tell everyone in the UN, that if they give aid to north korea that we will retaliate. Or we could just let South Korea Handle it.

We could tell South Korea if they send North Korea any food or aid that we will pull out.

We could give aid to Mongolia by supplying them with missles, Stingers, Anti-Tank Weapons, Artillery, Ammunition, Sniper Rifles, Special Forces Troops, Food and other supplies.


We could drop born again missionaries from the sky with a never ending supply of bibles.

Invade them with Harri Krishners.

Drop Candy laced with opium for the children.

Bombard them with 1,000,000 turkey dinners.

Send Brittney to live there.

I dont think provoking China is the way to resolve this issue, I do however think that a well placed TAC-50 round would do alot to calm down Kim.

 

[mastertech01]

Why should we offer incentives not to build a nuke? Im tired of buying off thugs. Ignore the bastards and let China smoke them if they get out of line. As long as China needs our trade more than they need NK mooching and freeloading off of them, I think we can count on them to keep NK in check. They are just bluffing thier way into our bankrolls IMHO. Lessons they learned by watching the middle eastern nations suck us dry in turn for temporary peace. When funds get low they just start a new war.

 

[trenchfoot]

fist off, some questions need to be answered:

from all of it's posturing and generally behaving like a spoiled brat, just what does NK want from the US and the rest of the world? respect? a level playing field? more say in world affairs? just to be left completely alone in their dark and poverty-laden corner of the earth? are they acting all of this out on someone else's behalf?

when that question is answered with certainty, we should - (as i've seen a chinese general portrayed in some movie say and do) - "give them what they want, just not in a way that they expect it" to let them know that to be a player on the world stage, they have to realize that "behaving as a grown up" and being respected is not just a matter of acting like an emotionally unstable bully waving nuclear weapons in everyone else's face.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Todd33

United States 5,735/9,960[2]
Russia (formerly the Soviet Union) 5,830/16,000[3]
United Kingdom <200[4]
France 350[5]
People's Republic of China 130[6]
India 75-115[7]
Pakistan 65-90[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_nuclear_weapons

First we have to define the "problem", NK developing nukes in a world ran by countries with nukes?

old argument not applcable....dosn`t address the topuc at hand

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Todd33

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Todd33

United States 5,735/9,960[2]
Russia (formerly the Soviet Union) 5,830/16,000[3]
United Kingdom <200[4]
France 350[5]
People's Republic of China 130[6]
India 75-115[7]
Pakistan 65-90[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_nuclear_weapons

First we have to define the "problem", NK developing nukes in a world ran by countries with nukes?

you dont see the problem with a nutjob dictator with nukes?

Is that the test for joining the club? If you have normal hair or if your elected you can develop nukes? I'm playing Devil's advocate here and I am waiting for an argument that explains why we can dictate who can and cannot develop the bomb.

So far we have nutjob and or dictators cannot. BTW there is no evidence that Kim Jung Il is "nuts". He is a dictator though, so strike one?

Since when....

 

[Chinadefender]

US has sent an interesting signal to the world:disgust:

Keep on nuclear testing and finally get help.

This is what US have dong with Indian nuclear issue.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: piasabird
We could drop born again missionaries from the sky with a never ending supply of bibles.

Invade them with Harri Krishners.

Send Brittney to live there.

Talk about illegal warfare.

Let's keep Brittney, help her to get hot again and instead send K-fed and Paris Hilton on a concert tour... talk about WMD.

I like the first part of your post, like I said, we can easily defeat the North. The real problem is how many people die before this happens and what does China do? If they sit back and do nothing then we are in great shape, but if they re-do the Korean War then we are in DEEP DEEP crap.

I doubt China wants to risk World War 3 over North Korea, and I also doubt they want to lose us and Japan as trading partners either.
China trade partners (old 2001 data)
Japan, US, Taiwan, Australia and Canada are all in the top ten, as is Europe. There is no way China wants to risk losing 5 or 6 of its largest trade partners over some little tin horn dictator like Kim.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Let's start by sitting down face-to-face, nation-to-nation with NK and explain that we don't want to attack/destroy their country.

We can then offer them a package of incentives to open themselves up and start behaving like a responsible citizen on the world stage. We can offer them UN membership, open trade agreements, financial assistance, humanitarian relief for its citizens, a more open border/releationship with South Korea. And on and on. There's so much they want/need from the rest of the world and so we actually have a lot of leverage. Obviously, we want them to discontinue their nuclear weapons program. We want them to stop test firing missiles and provoking their neighbors.

This is by no means a comprehensive plan, but it has a much better chance at working than the idiotic approach we've been trying for 50+ years.

"Closed" governments like NK thrive on the sort of brain dead hostile "foreign policy" we've seen out of the Bush Administration thus far and it just encourages them to stay closed. Getting them to open up would reap benefits because once they're part of the global economy (assuming we got that far) there's a built-in disincentive to act like a crazy sh!thead all the time. It has (sort of) worked for China and I think given enough effort and time, it could work for North Korea too.

Only problem is that N Korea does not want to open up. Kim retains his power by keeping his people blind to their own suffering.
Everything you said about opening up means nothing to him.

I think he wants food and money in order to keep himself in power. Beyond that I don't think anything else matters.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Chinadefender
US has sent an interesting signal to the world:disgust:

Keep on nuclear testing and finally get help.

This is what US have dong with Indian nuclear issue.

India is not exactly North Korea in case you haven't looked, neither is Pakistan. India developed its bomb by ripping off Canadian nuclear technology.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Let's start by sitting down face-to-face, nation-to-nation with NK and explain that we don't want to attack/destroy their country.

We can then offer them a package of incentives to open themselves up and start behaving like a responsible citizen on the world stage. We can offer them UN membership, open trade agreements, financial assistance, humanitarian relief for its citizens, a more open border/releationship with South Korea. And on and on. There's so much they want/need from the rest of the world and so we actually have a lot of leverage. Obviously, we want them to discontinue their nuclear weapons program. We want them to stop test firing missiles and provoking their neighbors.

This is by no means a comprehensive plan, but it has a much better chance at working than the idiotic approach we've been trying for 50+ years.

"Closed" governments like NK thrive on the sort of brain dead hostile "foreign policy" we've seen out of the Bush Administration thus far and it just encourages them to stay closed. Getting them to open up would reap benefits because once they're part of the global economy (assuming we got that far) there's a built-in disincentive to act like a crazy sh!thead all the time. It has (sort of) worked for China and I think given enough effort and time, it could work for North Korea too.

didn't we give them all sorts of incentives in the 1990s and it was later determined that the NKs continued making nukes anyway? why would they change their behavior now?


and, as the poster above points out, it's KJI who wants the country to stay closed. no foreign policy is going to change that. it's KJI who wants nukes. no foreign policy is going to change that, either.


the difference with the chinese is that their leadership wants all the technology. maybe to hang us with it later. our hope is that with economic liberty the chinese people start demanding political liberty as well.

but KJI just wants his nukes and to act like a spoiled brat. he doesn't want economic liberty for the korean people because he's afraid that they'll demand political liberty. it's an extremely closed world there, and the people think they're in paradise because of the 50 years of indoctrination they've been through. they think that KJI is doing them a favor. all that would topple (and KJI with it) if society were to open up.

 

[VooDooAddict]

Originally posted by: techs
To start with we stop borrowing billions from China to finance the Bush tax loan.

Talk about damaging our country. These massive loans are going to have an impact.