Not Enough Troops

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/3334293

O'Bammah was told we dont have enough troops. The quandry is that troop levels were cut under Clinton and Bush (Cheney) to produce a lower military budget and a leaner meaner Army/military.

We just do not have enough ground troops to fight a war in Afghanistan, so the obvious solution is just enlarge the military with more ground troops and less technology.
 

Jack Flash

Golden Member
Sep 10, 2006
1,947
0
76
We shouldn't be fighting a ground war in Afghanistan. We shouldn't be nation building. We need to secure Pakistan's nukes and then get out of the far east.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Originally posted by: Oceandevi
Gates has done some good with this. Basically reducing the number of far off future military apps that have a theoretical use. In favor of shit our guys can use NOW.

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/p..._gates?currentPage=all

The MRAPS part was disturbing.

MRAPS are a very worthwhile investment for any continuing presence in Iraq, Afghanistan and contiguous AOs and the procurement pipeline seems to have been ramped up now to handle the need.

The ramp up in light fighters is something that has been under discussion for a long time. You not only need troopers, you need qualified NCOs and officers. Even if all of the services are now meeting recruitment goals, thanks in part to the economic downturn, it still takes time to unit train up to the level that is required for mountain operations in Afghanistan, for example. Going into a counterinsurgency strategy will require a lot more civil affairs types as well.

It is hard balancing the need to fight the current lower tech wars with the possibility that we will face a regional power in the future, ie Iran, China, North Korea, where expensive advanced weapons systems will come in handy. Ramping up a new Army division along the lines of the 10th Mountain Division would definitely come in handy if we continue to engage in SW Asia.
 

NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
9,504
2
81
i have a question - couldn't some of the troops that are in Iraq now be moved to Afghanistan - and then you would have enough troops for your ground war there?

Or are you really saying we don't have enough troops to occupy two countries at once?
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Originally posted by: piasabird
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/3334293

O'Bammah was told we dont have enough troops. The quandry is that troop levels were cut under Clinton and Bush (Cheney) to produce a lower military budget and a leaner meaner Army/military.

We just do not have enough ground troops to fight a war in Afghanistan, so the obvious solution is just enlarge the military with more ground troops and less technology.

Why is "less technology" a corollary to more troops? Can't we have both?

 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,213
14
81
I am wondering if we should waste another trillion dollars in a third world shithole where we can be using it our own country.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Originally posted by: Jack Flash
We shouldn't be fighting a ground war in Afghanistan. We shouldn't be nation building. We need to secure Pakistan's nukes and then get out of the far east.

Well we fought, we conquered and now we are trying to fix things up before we get out of Dodge. That's the American way, for better or worse. I honestly don't know that we can fix Afghanistan, at least in a way that precludes the Taliban from re-establishing control once we leave. Certainly we can't fix it the way Iraq was fixed.

You are right about Pakistan. The beloved patriot Army is trying but the Federally Administered Tribal Areas and the North-West Frontier Province are tough, tough areas to control.

Pakistan is very sensitive about their sovereignty, so for the moment conducting large scale joint operations is out of the picture. Maybe if things get worse and the cities in Kashmir and Punjab come under serious enough threat, NATO and the US might get an invitation to help out. Otherwise, we might actively work to lessen the tensions between India and Pakistan enough that the Pakistan government feels secure enough to re-deploy more their better troops from the Indian border.
 

BarrySotero

Banned
Apr 30, 2009
509
0
0
The liberal thing to do would be to expand the troops and then hang them out to dry - thus maximizing the damage while looking correct superficially.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Originally posted by: BarrySotero
The liberal thing to do would be to expand the troops and then hang them out to dry - thus maximizing the damage while looking correct superficially.

You're such a fucking douche.
 

GuitarDaddy

Lifer
Nov 9, 2004
11,465
1
0
If all you righteous American tea partiers join up we will be just fine, roll up your sleeves and get to work. You guys do like guns and religious wars right? If you can shoot half as well as you flap your pieholes the war will be won in no time:thumbsup:
 

MotF Bane

No Lifer
Dec 22, 2006
60,801
10
0
Considering how most of the military establishment has been treating tomorrow's war as still being an epic battle against some massive opponent, with all the cutting edge technology that costs billions, Gates' approach sounds pretty good.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Originally posted by: piasabird
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/3334293

O'Bammah was told we dont have enough troops. The quandry is that troop levels were cut under Clinton and Bush (Cheney) to produce a lower military budget and a leaner meaner Army/military.

We just do not have enough ground troops to fight a war in Afghanistan, so the obvious solution is just enlarge the military with more ground troops and less technology.


The Army?s current recruiting and outreach programs, innovative though they may be, are systemically flawed because they target a demographic that may already be in a state of failure.


..... only 71 % of Army recruits in 2007 earned their high-school diploma.


..... 80% of recruits with regular high school diplomas will finish their first term of enlistment. Up to half of those with a GED, other alternative equivalency credential, or no credential will drop out during the first term of enlistment.

Having a regular high school diploma is the single best predictor of successful first term enlistment.


In February 2008, there was "a significant increase in the number of recruits with what the Army terms 'serious criminal misconduct' in their background" -- a category that included "aggravated assault, robbery, vehicular manslaughter, receiving stolen property and making terrorist threats. "From 2004 to 2005, the number of those recruits rose by more than 54 percent, while alcohol and illegal drug waivers, reversing a four-year decline, increased by more than 13 percent."

From 2003 to 2007, the percentage of medical waivers to enter the military more than doubled, from 4.1% to 8.6% ...

The largest percentage of military recruits represents Montana, Nevada, Oregon, Florida, and Texas.

Wrestling with Recruiting
-- from a colonel doing graduate work at the WC

The views expressed in this student academic research paper are those of the author and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the U.S. Government.


I was looking at info regarding catIVs and came across this ....



 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
Originally posted by: Ausm
I am wondering if we should waste another trillion dollars in a third world shithole where we can be using it our own country.
"Bomb... bomb... bomb... bomb Iran."
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Originally posted by: piasabird
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/3334293

O'Bammah was told we dont have enough troops. The quandry is that troop levels were cut under Clinton and Bush (Cheney) to produce a lower military budget and a leaner meaner Army/military.

We just do not have enough ground troops to fight a war in Afghanistan, so the obvious solution is just enlarge the military with more ground troops and less technology.


The Army?s current recruiting and outreach programs, innovative though they may be, are systemically flawed because they target a demographic that may already be in a state of failure.


..... only 71 % of Army recruits in 2007 earned their high-school diploma.


..... 80% of recruits with regular high school diplomas will finish their first term of enlistment. Up to half of those with a GED, other alternative equivalency credential, or no credential will drop out during the first term of enlistment.

Having a regular high school diploma is the single best predictor of successful first term enlistment.


In February 2008, there was "a significant increase in the number of recruits with what the Army terms 'serious criminal misconduct' in their background" -- a category that included "aggravated assault, robbery, vehicular manslaughter, receiving stolen property and making terrorist threats. "From 2004 to 2005, the number of those recruits rose by more than 54 percent, while alcohol and illegal drug waivers, reversing a four-year decline, increased by more than 13 percent."

From 2003 to 2007, the percentage of medical waivers to enter the military more than doubled, from 4.1% to 8.6% ...

The largest percentage of military recruits represents Montana, Nevada, Oregon, Florida, and Texas.

Wrestling with Recruiting
-- from a colonel doing graduate work at the WC

The views expressed in this student academic research paper are those of the author and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the U.S. Government.


I was looking at info regarding catIVs and came across this ....

Looks like you are relying on old data and doing some might fine cherry pickin' down on that liberal farm of yours -

Army, other services have record recruiting year

Worthwhile reading in the entirety.

Army, other services have record recruiting year

Oct 14, 2009

By Gerry J. Gilmore, American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON (Oct. 13, 2009) -- The military services' active and reserve components notched record recruiting numbers and signed up the highest-quality recruits ever in fiscal 2009, senior defense officials said today.

It is the first time that all active services and reserve components met or exceeded their numerical recruiting goals and exceeded their recruit-quality benchmarks since the start of the all-volunteer force in 1973, Bill Carr, deputy undersecretary of defense for military personnel policy, told Pentagon reporters.

While Carr acknowledged that the current economic downturn probably is having a positive effect on recruiting, he also pointed to the sterling efforts of military recruiters for the superb results and noted the military deployed a robust bonus program in which 40 percent of recruits received an average bonus of $14,000.

The recruiting success achieved in fiscal 2009 is even more impressive, Carr said, considering that 70 percent of today's high school graduates - the military's target recruiting pool - go on to college upon graduation. In the 1980s, he noted, only about half of American high school students went on to college.

A rising propensity for young people age 17 to 24 to be obese, Carr said, also complicates the military's recruiting mission.

"If we look back to the 1980s, one in 20 young people were obese," Carr said, as compared to today's ratio of 1 in 4 young people being categorized as obese. "And, that creates a tighter constraint as you seek to find fully qualified recruits," he added.

However, he said, the number of waivers issued to recruits with medical or conduct issues is trending downward.

Here are the Army, Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force recruiting results for fiscal 2009:

-- The Army had 70,045 accessions, making 108 percent of its 65,000 goal.

-- The Navy had 35,527 accessions, making 100 percent of its 35,500 goal.

-- The Marine Corps had 31,413 accessions, making 100 percent of its 31,400 goal.

-- The Air Force had 31,983 accessions, making 100 percent of its 31,980 goal.

Reserve-component recruiting results for fiscal 2009:

-- The Army National Guard had 56,071 accessions, making 100 percent of its 56,000 goal.

-- The Army Reserve had 36,189 accessions, making 105 percent of its 34,598 goal.

-- The Navy Reserve had 7,793 accessions, making 101 percent of its 7,743 goal.

-- The Marine Corps Reserve had 8,805 accessions, making 122 percent of its 7,194 goal.

-- The Air National Guard had 10,075 accessions, making 106 percent of its 9,500 goal.

-- The Air Force Reserve had 8,604 accessions, making 109 percent of its 7,863 goal.

Attrition losses in all reserve components are among the best in recent years, officials said.

Carr also attributed current recruiting success to the "Millennial" demographic of young people that includes those born between 1978 and 1996. Generational studies show, he said, that these young people - who've lived during the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States - are more inclined to perform public service.

Additionally, Carr said, Congress continues to provide the Defense Department with sufficient funding to sustain the all-volunteer force.

Studies also show that young people can make a good living in the military, Carr said, as compared to their civilian peers with equitable workplace experience and education qualifications. Generous pay raises provided to junior officers and mid-level noncommissioned officers in recent years, he noted, have boosted those servicemembers' earning capacity.

"It has been a banner year for recruiting," Curtis L. Gilroy, director of accession policy, told American Forces Press Service and Pentagon Channel reporters during an Oct. 9 interview at the Pentagon.

Gilroy, too, saluted the "outstanding" performance of the services' military recruiters. His directorate is a component of the Office of the Secretary of Defense.

Fiscal 2009's crop of recruits also represents the best quality ever, Gilroy said, noting 96 percent of active-duty recruits and 95 percent of reserve-component recruits possessed a high school diploma. The Defense Department benchmark for recruits with high school diplomas is 90 percent. Studies show, he added, that 80 percent of servicemembers with high school diplomas complete their initial term of service.

Gilroy said 73 percent of active recruits and 72 percent of reserve-component recruits scored average or above average on the Armed Forces Qualification Test. The AFQT measures an individual's math and verbal ability, which indicates aptitude for military service. The department sets a benchmark of 60 percent of all recruits scoring at or above the 50th percentile on the AFQT.

"As you can see from these numbers," Gilroy said, "the services have far exceeded those benchmarks" in fiscal 2009 for signing up recruits with high school diplomas and those with average or better AFQT scores. Increased capabilities demonstrated by the majority of the nearly 300,000 active and reserve component recruits signed up in fiscal 2009, he added, will result in higher performance in the field and will enhance readiness.


 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Originally posted by: PJABBER
~~ I completely missed your point ....


Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Originally posted by: piasabird
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/3334293

O'Bammah was told we dont have enough troops. The quandry is that troop levels were cut under Clinton and Bush (Cheney) to produce a lower military budget and a leaner meaner Army/military.

We just do not have enough ground troops to fight a war in Afghanistan, so the obvious solution is just enlarge the military with more ground troops and less technology.


The Army?s current recruiting and outreach programs, innovative though they may be, are systemically flawed because they target a demographic that may already be in a state of failure.


..... only 71 % of Army recruits in 2007 earned their high-school diploma.


..... 80% of recruits with regular high school diplomas will finish their first term of enlistment. Up to half of those with a GED, other alternative equivalency credential, or no credential will drop out during the first term of enlistment.

Having a regular high school diploma is the single best predictor of successful first term enlistment.


In February 2008, there was "a significant increase in the number of recruits with what the Army terms 'serious criminal misconduct' in their background" -- a category that included "aggravated assault, robbery, vehicular manslaughter, receiving stolen property and making terrorist threats. "From 2004 to 2005, the number of those recruits rose by more than 54 percent, while alcohol and illegal drug waivers, reversing a four-year decline, increased by more than 13 percent."

From 2003 to 2007, the percentage of medical waivers to enter the military more than doubled, from 4.1% to 8.6% ...

The largest percentage of military recruits represents Montana, Nevada, Oregon, Florida, and Texas.

Wrestling with Recruiting
-- from a colonel doing graduate work at the WC

The views expressed in this student academic research paper are those of the author and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the U.S. Government.


I was looking at info regarding catIVs and came across this ....



Yes.

You did.









 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: BarrySotero
The liberal thing to do would be to expand the troops and then hang them out to dry - thus maximizing the damage while looking correct superficially.

You're such a fucking douche.

I wonder if he even sees thats what bush did.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: Jack Flash
We shouldn't be fighting a ground war in Afghanistan. We shouldn't be nation building. We need to secure Pakistan's nukes and then get out of the far east.

Secure Pakistan...and then leave Pakistan? Great plan!
 

cliftonite

Diamond Member
Jul 15, 2001
6,899
63
91
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Jack Flash
We shouldn't be fighting a ground war in Afghanistan. We shouldn't be nation building. We need to secure Pakistan's nukes and then get out of the far east.

Secure Pakistan...and then leave Pakistan? Great plan!

Why would we care about Pakistan if we were able to secure its nukes?
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: piasabird
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/3334293

O'Bammah was told we dont have enough troops. The quandry is that troop levels were cut under Clinton and Bush (Cheney) to produce a lower military budget and a leaner meaner Army/military.

We just do not have enough ground troops to fight a war in Afghanistan, so the obvious solution is just enlarge the military with more ground troops and less technology.


Bullshit. Obama is waffling on the issue. Nothing more.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: cliftonite
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Jack Flash
We shouldn't be fighting a ground war in Afghanistan. We shouldn't be nation building. We need to secure Pakistan's nukes and then get out of the far east.

Secure Pakistan...and then leave Pakistan? Great plan!

Why would we care about Pakistan if we were able to secure its nukes?

I guess we need to define what "secure Pakistan's nukes" is.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
No I think the point is being missed. Not only did we take out eyes of the ball in Afghanistan, somehow going after a homegrown movement called the Taliban instead of going after the Al-Quida that is a world wide movement not tied to Afghanistan in any way, we now have to ask, as a nation, if its now possible to win in Afghanistan given our prior mistakes.

Already the verdict from the military perspective is that Afghanistan is now a lost cause. The question is and remains, can a McCrystal type counter insurgency strategy do better? And how many resources, both troop numbers and economic resources will it take in a gamble to start winning. All we know is that the prior GWB strategy has been an epic fail for eight years running.

I for one can not blame Obama for straddling the fence, after all, without bipartisan congressional support, simple troop numbers is only a small part of the equation for winning in Afghanistan. Its not just a Obama decision, its a national decision. But if we withdraw, we all have to realize that we have done something that has never happened in world history before, namely totally destabilize a nuclear power like Pakistan. IMHO, that kinda raises the stakes and the risks.

But But But, as we all remember, Iraq was only going to cost 50 billion tops.

As we yet again learn, when it comes to a military occupation, we have to go big or stay at home.
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
seems like a great jobs program... gets lots of people employed until after the '12 election... seems like an easy decision for bo...
 

Oceandevi

Diamond Member
Jan 20, 2006
3,085
1
0
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: cliftonite
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Jack Flash
We shouldn't be fighting a ground war in Afghanistan. We shouldn't be nation building. We need to secure Pakistan's nukes and then get out of the far east.

Secure Pakistan...and then leave Pakistan? Great plan!

Why would we care about Pakistan if we were able to secure its nukes?

I guess we need to define what "secure Pakistan's nukes" is.

Steal them. By sending Fedor and Sean Connery. They will be drinking vodka and whatever scotsmen drink.
 
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