NOTE (RANT) TO COLLEGE APPLICANTS.

[bizmark]

If filling out your application on-line, CHECK EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU CLICK THE GODDAMN 'SUBMIT' BUTTON. We are not like Windows, and we do not ask "Are you sure that you want to submit your application? (click yes/no)" "Are you REALLY sure? (click yes/no)". We assume that you're smart enough to figure out that "SUBMIT MY APPLICATION" means "SUBMIT MY APPLICATION" and not anything else. We hope so at least. This is your freaking college application, and it has the chance to impact your life profoundly. You should not take it lightly or click "Submit" without thinking.

I work on the IT team for the college admissions office at a competitive university, and our Early Action deadline was November 1, and God only knows how many e-mails I've gotten from idiots the past few days. I'd give you excerpts but that might get me in trouble. We've had people who copied and pasted the wrong versions of their essays. We've had people who have somehow not filled out the entire Activities and Interests section, even though they've filled out everything else. We've had people who just clicked on the damn thing before they were done. And then they write to me, even though *I* can't do a damn thing to help them and it just happens that my email address was on one of the e-mails they received from us, and we've explicitly stated on the website that there's a different, better e-mail to use for this kind of problem.

Also, look on the damn website before you e-mail me asking whether we have a Criminal Psychology major. No, we don't, FYI, but you would have found that out if you'd spent 20 seconds looking at our Admissions website and clicking on "Academics" and then the list of majors. If you ask questions like this, we automatically put you on our "Do Not Admit" list. Just kidding, but I sure as hell wish we'd do that.

Jesus Christ you'd think our applicants would be smarter than this. And I really feel sorry for Nigerians who e-mail us for an application thinking that they'll automatically be accepted, and that we'll pay for them to fly to America after helping them secure a visa. We get a surprising number of those, and I honestly feel sorry for those people because they obviously don't know any better. But native English speakers who live in the United States shouldn't have any problem figuring out exactly what they have to do. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

While I'm on the subject of native English speakers, to those of you in India, Pakistan, Nigeria, and everywhere else where English is NOT the native language -- in official communications, especially those with a college which you want to attend, "ur" and "u" are NOT ACCEPTABLE as shorthand for "your" and "you". I get at least 3 a week like this. And those are only the ones that *I* get... I know the non-technical e-mail address must get like 5 times as many.

</rant> sorry for the yelling. I'm really stressed right now.

edit to those suggesting technical improvements on our part:

it's hard since our application is about 8 pages all told. Usually applicants will take anywhere from a few days to a few weeks to fill it out completely. And we do have *some* error checking, like we wouldn't let them leave their ZIP code blank, but if they've pasted in the wrong essay then there's no way we can check for that sort of thing. Also we can't check the activities since there are probably some people who don't have any activities to list. We have blanks for 13 activities -- we can't make sure they're all filled out. Granted there may be an intermediate solution here, but for the most part these are things we really *can't* improve on our end.

 

[Dudd]

That's why I did everything via paper applications. No worry, I can have my guidence counsler look everything over to make sure it's all good. But, couldn't you have some sort of code where if the application isn't entirely filled out, it would come back as an error. I mean, if I leave my zip code off of a commercial website, it will tell me that there is an error: please enter zip code. Shouldn't you do something like that? It can't be too hard.

 

[michaelh20]

One word : Javascript













Although I hate Javascripted prompts though.. one time it was Javascript'ed so you could only hit submit once, and that one time didn't work, couldn't hit it again....

 

[bizmark]

yeah but it's hard since a college application is about 8 pages all told. Usually applicants will take anywhere from a few days to a few weeks to fill it out completely. And we do have *some* error checking, like we wouldn't let them leave their ZIP code blank, but if they've pasted in the wrong essay then there's no way we can check for that sort of thing. Also we can't check the activities since there are probably some people who don't have any activities to list. We have blanks for 13 activities -- we can't make sure they're all filled out. Granted there may be an intermediate solution here, but for the most part these are things we really *can't* improve on our end.

 

[Deeko]

too lazy to read that. I didn't apply online.

 

[kranky]

IMHO, a college application is a prime example of something that should not be done online. Just because it can be, doesn't make it a good idea. (Not directed at you, bizmark, but to those who would probably do a better job by completing one on paper.)

 

[bizmark]

Originally posted by: kranky
IMHO, a college application is a prime example of something that should not be done online. Just because it can be, doesn't make it a good idea. (Not directed at you, bizmark, but to those who would probably do a better job by completing one on paper.)

I actually agree with you. That's why we still send the paper application to every potential applicant on our mailing list, and we have an intermediate option: a writable PDF version that the applicant can fill out on his/her computer, and then print out and send in after looking it over (my personal project was getting the PDF app ready) (I would definitely use this option if I were applying -- I remember cursing our typewriter when I filled out my college applications a few years ago.). Of course they could also just print out the PDF version and fill it in by hand. But probably 80% of our applicants will still use the online version. All three versions are on equal footing, of course.

 

[zippy]

I did my application the old paper and pencil way...except for my resume and essays of course. But I have neat handwriting so I filled out the necessary info on the application by hand.

If I don't get in where I applied early decision to then I'll be doing a few of my apps online most likely.

 

[RaynorWolfcastle]

I applied online, and I got accepted in a fairly competitive program, I had no trouble filling out the application and I thought it was very convenient. You should consider online applications to be a way to weed out people who shouldn't be in your university anyway . If you think you're smart enough to apply online, but fail miserably at it, you probably shouldn't get accepted .

 

[lukatmyshu]

Originally posted by: bizmark
CHECK EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU CLICK THE GODDAMN 'SUBMIT' BUTTON.

I applied to the UC System 4 years ago online and they had a convenient feature. There were several sections, and sub-sections. Each subsection had to be "closed" as in you had to click on a checkbox on the bottom of each page and it then verified and saved all your information. Each section then had to be closed as well ... this couldn't be done until all the sections were closed. That way if you forgot a subsection you could immediately tell which section it was in, and fix it ... I did it and got into all the UCs that I applied to (Berkeley, LA, SD, and I)

Originally posted by: bizmark
While I'm on the subject of native English speakers, to those of you in India, Pakistan, Nigeria, and everywhere else where English is NOT the native language -- in official communications,

Funny you say that ... there are two official languages of India. Hindi and English.

 

"While I'm on the subject of native English speakers, to those of you in India, Pakistan, Nigeria, and everywhere else where English is NOT the native language -- in official communications, especially those with a college which you want to attend, 'ur' and 'u' are NOT ACCEPTABLE as shorthand for "your" and "you". I get at least 3 a week like this. And those are only the ones that *I* get... I know the non-technical e-mail address must get like 5 times as many."

Huh? Bizmark, where did you get that misinformation from? :frown: When last I checked, English was the official language (at least one of the official languages) of those countries.

The whole "u" and "ur" thing has nothing to do with the countries of origin. It's some internet chat trend and people make it a part of their daily vocabularies forgetting when to type it in full (i.e., as "you" and "your").

 

[A5]

Originally posted by: Deeko
too lazy to read that. I didn't apply online.

Then why in God's name did you reply to the post?

 

[ScottyB]

Usually applicants will take anywhere from a few days to a few weeks to fill it out completely

I only spent like 1/2 an hour tops, filling out apps.

 

[cchen]

uhh i did them all online... I think online is the best way since it's much more convienient...

 

[fizmeister]

Originally posted by: cchen
uhh i did them all online... I think online is the best way since it's much more convienient...

I didn't. I don't trust the computer. I just used the PDF versions of everything and typed my info into the fields using full Acrobat (made my own fields if they didn't exist). Some people just don't trust the computer (I do, but I felt more comfortable sending in a hard copy), so whatever works.

 

[bizmark]

Originally posted by: luvly
"While I'm on the subject of native English speakers, to those of you in India, Pakistan, Nigeria, and everywhere else where English is NOT the native language -- in official communications, especially those with a college which you want to attend, 'ur' and 'u' are NOT ACCEPTABLE as shorthand for "your" and "you". I get at least 3 a week like this. And those are only the ones that *I* get... I know the non-technical e-mail address must get like 5 times as many."

Huh? Bizmark, where did you get that misinformation from? :frown: When last I checked, English was the official language (at least one of the official languages) of those countries.

The whole "u" and "ur" thing has nothing to do with the countries of origin. It's some internet chat trend and people make it a part of their daily vocabularies forgetting when to type it in full (i.e., as "you" and "your").

I'm talking native language, not official language. We require a TOEFL score for every applicant whose home country is not the US, England, Ireland, Canada, or Australia (hmm did I miss any?). We even require it for applicants from places like Singapore and Hong Kong where English is a commonly-spoken language besides being official (BTW the applicants from these places generally have great English and lack the "u" and "ur" that we always get from Nigerians and Indians. I know it sounds like I'm making sweeping generalizations here, but it's the truth) and we require it even if their entire secondary education took place in English. The only exemption from the TOEFL is if they have studied for two or more years in a country where English is the native language.

Anyway, it's very obvious that these kids' first language is NOT English, just from reading their e-mails. Want proof? here

Thus, in an official document first published in 1977, revised in 1981, and titled Federal Republic of Nigeria National Policy on Education (NPE), the Federal Government for the first time laid it down as a policy for the whole country that:
(a) in primary School, which lasts six years, each child must study two languages, namely:
(i) his mother-tongue (if available for study) or an indigenous language of wider communication in his area of domicile, and
(ii) English language;

That would indicate to me that the majority of Nigerians have a first language or 'mother-tongue' other than English.
And the same is true for India and Pakistan. Yes, yes, I know, the majority of the people in those countries can speak English, but also the majority of them have a non-English language for their first language.

I know that the "u" and "ur" thing was brought upon us by the internet, but again it only happens for these specific groups. It sounds crazy, but it's the truth. I can remember e-mails from Bulgaria, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, China, Russia, Brazil.... none of them did the "ur" thing.

only spent like 1/2 an hour tops, filling out apps.

Did none of them require essays? We require 3 essays, none of which could be easily taken from another application (we don't use the Common Application).

 

[NewSc2]

I don't think you should get all worked up about the college application thing. I've never been a fan of college applications anyways - why do I have to type out all my grades and scores when you can access them online and if I have to bring you a copy of my transcript anyways?

I had a 4.2 high school GPA, 1450 SAT, and averaged a 3.5 on 14 AP exams. I played sports, and was involved in the community quite a bit. I got denied into weird places and accepted into even weirder places. I think it's completely unfair for me to have gotten denied by my #1 school of choice (UCLA) when I got accepted into Cal and other schools. Schools should have either an interview, to make sure that the kid isn't a complete wacko, or a simple submission of scores, with some extra-curricular fill-ins applicable (newspaper, clubs, sports).

Extra curricular activities often were looked upon as "another thing to put on my application," and often the college thing was the only thing that attracted people to it.

Essays usually aren't even written at the end by the same, "competent" person, which works against people who actually have the competence to attend certain schools. My first draft of my essay was my final draft, minus a few organizational twists that took me about 2 minutes to finish. Others took weeks, meeting up with the teacher so often that it was probably the teacher's paper moreso than their own. Basically, I think colleges take the wrong things into consideration. They use the applications as their sole information regarding their applicants, but I think that colleges should first take into consideration other things about the applicant by looking at what the college wants in their students first. On paper, a student can look fine, but who knows, when he gets into college, they might become drunks or still perform well.

[end of rant, tired]

 

[SerraYX]

I would definitely do them all on paper anyway (and did last year) and photocopy everything to keep a paper trail. Helps when disputing whether or not you sent something in

Also, do NOT use the online FAFSA. I filled it out fairly early, thinking everything went well. A week before the semester starts, my college informs me that the application was received in mid-August (several months late). Also, because it reported my holdings as $15k (more like $300 ) and my parents as $15k (substantially less) they were taking $8k per year off my scholarship. I had that taken care of in september after multiple visits to the aid office and several arguments, but it was a stress I would care not to repeat.

 

"I'm talking native language, not official language"

Yeah, Bizmark, I noted your mention of "native language", but then you proceeded to hyphenate it with "in official communications". The two don't go together. It's an oxymoron it seems. The official communication there is English, but the native language may be many of different tribal languages. At the same time, some people actually grow up knowing just Queen's English without ever learning their native languages. As I said earlier, the "u" and "ur" has nothing to do with the countries of origin. I see many American kids do that too . . . it's simply a picked habit.

Oh Geez, so New Zealand is excluded but Australia is included? So an aboriginal wouldn't have to take the test either? Interesting. The whole TOEFL thing is crap. I'm aware of it. It simply exists for a lame reason. People should be tested regardless of country of origin or they should take their tests automatically through their English classes.

But as far as I am concerned, that's irrelevant here. The "u" and "ur" thing has everything to do with teenagers and the chat habits they learn. And when you get used to it, you unconsciously make that error. Maybe people from those countries are the ones who spend too much time at IRC chats and that's the reason for the discrepancy. But trust me, most of those kids who even have access to the 'net must be one whose parents can afford to send them to international or private schools, which also means proper English. But when they see a bunch of American kids writing "u" and "ur" in chatrooms, then they think it's a trend and try to apply it to their systems. As some saying goes, a mistake in London is a fashion in <insert third world nation>.

About the piece you have given me, it is true that most people speak their native languages with English as a second language. But it doesn't by any means prove that English is not the first language of those who authored your e-mails. Unless you mean to tell me that you're sure this country implements what's written in document, how sure are you that it applies to international schools there? There's even an excerpt where the author observes that the "indigenous languages" are not given nearly as much time and teaching as English is. Most wealthy parents send their kids to these "British" or "American" international schools or private schools of similar standing. What I could infer with your claim of what you received is that the best teaching was not offered to this student. I can pop you writings from high schools in the USA from American kids who were never taught the basics of writing. Would it be right if I concluded based on those samples that English was not one's first language? To infer that English isn't someone's first language based on the sample given there would be a hasty conclusion. The journal you're linking me to is even written by a native of Nigeria. If that individual can author what you view as a strong point, then should I conclude that that author must have learned his or her writing in the USA, UK, Canada or Australia? The writings of those kids don't measure up to ESL writings. It could be, but most wealthy people in those nations mentioned prioritise having their kids speak English and English only sometimes.

 

[transluko]

Biz, how about you do something about your little problem there.

If it will make peoples lives easier, then try to get confirmation screen put in.

Do you think flawless computer using should be a requirement to attend college?

 

[bizmark]

Originally posted by: luvly

Yeah, Bizmark, I noted your mention of "native language", but then you proceeded to hyphenate it with "in official communications". The two don't go together. It's an oxymoron it seems.

Okay, so I wrote the wrong thing. It was a rant, and I wasn't in the best of moods at the time, nor did I desire to be completely coherent.

Oh Geez, so New Zealand is excluded but Australia is included?

I think New Zealand is included. I haven't actually seen any definitive list of countries. Like many things around here, it's somewhat of an unspoken rule. Anyway, one counselor handles all International applicants so she's the only one who really needs to know.

So an aboriginal wouldn't have to take the test either? Interesting.

I can't imagine that one could graduate from high school in Australia without having been taught in English, by native English speakers, for the majority of one's education. But you do bring up an interesting point.

The whole TOEFL thing is crap. I'm aware of it. It simply exists for a lame reason. People should be tested regardless of country of origin or they should take their tests automatically through their English classes.

??? I'm having problems making sense of these statements. The TOEFL is not crap. We have no facilities for ESL, and we do NOT want to accept a student who will not be able to handle taking classes and living their everyday life in English, when we reject thousands of others who wouldn't have this problem! BTW you can claim "rant" too if you don't want to explain

But as far as I am concerned, that's irrelevant here. The "u" and "ur" thing has everything to do with teenagers and the chat habits they learn. And when you get used to it, you unconsciously make that error. Maybe people from those countries are the ones who spend too much time at IRC chats and that's the reason for the discrepancy. But trust me, most of those kids who even have access to the 'net must be one whose parents can afford to send them to international or private schools, which also means proper English. But when they see a bunch of American kids writing "u" and "ur" in chatrooms, then they think it's a trend and try to apply it to their systems. As some saying goes, a mistake in London is a fashion in <insert third world nation>.

Okay, you've got a point there, but for some reason this same thing doesn't happen with the Turks/Singaporeans/Chinese/Japanese/Russians/etc. who are presumably just as susceptible to this same sort of misguided IRC trend.

About the piece you have given me, it is true that most people speak their native languages with English as a second language. But it doesn't by any means prove that English is not the first language of those who authored your e-mails.

I can see your point, but even the lowest of the ghetto-talkers have a basic unspoken understanding of which is the right preposition to use or that the phrase "Thanking you" does not make sense.

The journal you're linking me to is even written by a native of Nigeria. If that individual can author what you view as a strong point, then should I conclude that that author must have learned his or her writing in the USA, UK, Canada or Australia?

That happened to be the first thing that Google brought me regarding language instruction in Nigeria. And no, you can't conclude anything about the where the writer learned English or what his native language was. Proper English is that way. However, if you receive something poorly written (it doesn't matter whether the point he/she makes is good) then you can tell that the author did not grow up speaking English and in some cases you could pinpoint what his/her native language is. Look, I've got friends from all over the world, and I've noted lots of particular cases of problems with English, some of which are even endearing. For example, Russians -- even Russians who are otherwise perfectly understandable in English and have spent years in the United States -- often have problems with prepositions. Are we "on" the boat or "in" the boat? "On" the internet or "in" the internet? I must pass an examination "at" mathematics or "in" mathematics? These examples are all culled from e-mails and conversations with my Russian friends.

The point that I'm trying to make here, is that it's pretty easy to tell whether someone's native language is English (if their English is sub-par of course ). There are 'natural' English mistakes made by native speakers, and there are non-'natural' mistakes made by non-native speakers. Is this in any way related to the use of "u" and "ur"? No, not at all... and there's no reason why I should have conflated the two ideas. But again, it was a rant and I was venting without checking every statement for logical consistency.

 

[bizmark]

Originally posted by: transluko
Biz, how about you do something about your little problem there.

If it will make peoples lives easier, then try to get confirmation screen put in.

Do you think flawless computer using should be a requirement to attend college?

I've suggested this sort of improvement to the system. Unfortunately there's an entire bureaucracy that I have to go through before anything can be done But next year we'll definitely have a lot to add to the application.

 

All right, Bizmark! We have the matter resolved. It was a rant on your part, so you really didn't think much about what your statement implied. So, all is well.

Speaking of American kids making errors . . . give me a break. Even at AT forums, you see it everyday: "your" instead of "you're"; "there" instead "their", and to name a few. I think that such error is worse than someone typing "u" or "ur" instead of "you" or "your". The latter shows that someone knows the English language but is writing in shorthand, whereas the former is a clear case of improper grammar. The former also affects the outcome of a statement, whereas the latter does not.

We're cool, as everything's been cleared. Relax about the prospective college students. I'm sure they'll be assets to your school if they're admitted. Maybe you'll get to know them personally!

 

[Semper Fi]

Speaking of American kids making errors . . . give me a break. Even at AT forums, you see it everyday: "your" instead of "you're"; "there" instead "their", and to name a few. I think that such error is worse than someone typing "u" or "ur" instead of "you" or "your".

What is this???

Your out of you're mind!

 

[Legendary]

That's why all of my applications this year will be done on paper. No trust for computers and servers - heard too many a horror story.