nova jfk: cold case

[chihlidog]

lol. the heads of all the passengers tick forward for 1 frame. that's pretty much your entire argument supporting the obvious official lie.

Please dotn get antagonistic about it. I dont have a dog in the fight. I just want the truth, and the EVIDENCE that we're able to view doesnt point to a conspiracy. That's just how it is, I'm not trying to take one side over another.

Watch the z-film at full speed. JFK moves forward at the moment of impact and then goes back. Almost sort of an elastic motion, like reacting to a spring. Perhaps from his backbrace?

Again, I really dont even WANT to believe that one scumbag coulda pulled that off, I'd LIKE to see evidence of a larger conspiracy. But I havent found it and I think if one looks at it WITHOUT the NEED to see a conspiracy, it becomes pretty clear that the shots came from the back.

 

[z1ggy]

Just tossing this out there: (it's from the wiki page on the JFK assassination)

In contrast to the conclusions of the Warren Commission, the United States House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) concluded in 1978 that Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy.[9] The HSCA found the original FBI investigation and the Warren Commission Report to be seriously flawed. While agreeing with the Commission that Oswald fired all the shots which caused the wounds to Kennedy and Connally, the HSCA stated that there were at least four shots fired (only three of which could be linked to Oswald) and that there was "...a high probability that two gunmen fired at [the] President."

 

[nf4m]

The brain and blood ended up on the trunk, all over some of the motorcycle officers and all over the place in general. They were all moving FORWARD. Think about it. Brain/blood gets sprayed up and forms sort of this cloud. The vehicles move forward faster than the material and so move sort of through it. It also begins falling on them. Everyone around there got sprayed. Think about how things were all moving relative to each other and it makes sense.

And no, I didnt watch the link, I'm at work. Cant. However, I know the facts and the INITIAL testimony never said anything about gunshots from the knoll. And even if it did, nobody can explain how a shot from the knoll blew out the RIGHT side of JFK's head, how Jackie came out uninjured, or why the shooter isnt visible in photographs of the knoll taken at the time of the headshot.

ah. not only did you not watch the links, but you had no idea there were corroborating eyewitnesses and extraneous bullet damage. so much for your years of research.

and lol at the bullet exiting the right side. fact is, all the doctors are on record at one point in time stating a large exit wound at the back/rear of the head existed at the time of initial hospital operation:
http://imgur.com/f9jPg9b

the vehicle wasn't moving that quickly to explain why his brain and blood were scattered on officers and agents behind the limo. a better explanation would be god's breath was blowing against kennedy's face the moment of headshot impact.

 

[chihlidog]

Just tossing this out there: (it's from the wiki page on the JFK assassination)

In contrast to the conclusions of the Warren Commission, the United States House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) concluded in 1978 that Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy.[9] The HSCA found the original FBI investigation and the Warren Commission Report to be seriously flawed. While agreeing with the Commission that Oswald fired all the shots which caused the wounds to Kennedy and Connally, the HSCA stated that there were at least four shots fired (only three of which could be linked to Oswald) and that there was "...a high probability that two gunmen fired at [the] President."

This was based mostly on acoustic evidence from a mic that was stuck open, on which some felt there were spikes in the recorded data indicating a fourth shot.

It was later shown that the "shots" were a full minute after the assassination.

 

[z1ggy]

The brain and blood ended up on the trunk, all over some of the motorcycle officers and all over the place in general. They were all moving FORWARD. Think about it. Brain/blood gets sprayed up and forms sort of this cloud. The vehicles move forward faster than the material and so move sort of through it. It also begins falling on them. Everyone around there got sprayed. Think about how things were all moving relative to each other and it makes sense.

And no, I didn't watch the link, I'm at work. Cant. However, I know the facts and the INITIAL testimony never said anything about gunshots from the knoll. And even if it did, nobody can explain how a shot from the knoll blew out the RIGHT side of JFK's head, how Jackie came out uninjured, or why the shooter isn't visible in photographs of the knoll taken at the time of the headshot.

It's unlikely that the headshot came from behind if brain matter was found on the trunk. The entry wound should be very small (high velocity) followed by a large gaping exit wound (lower velocity with the energy being dissipated into the brain matter and skull).

I am just stating physics here. I've actually seen real pictures of gun shot victims in forensics class. A fella got shot in the chest with a .44mag (I know different caliber) by his wife. Chest entry wound was fairly small, not particularly bloody. The next picture was of his back. He had a solid 4-6'' hole in his back with tremendous damage to the tissue. Additionally, the crime scene showed all the blood splatter to be behind the victim, not in front of him.

 

[chihlidog]

ah. not only did you not watch the links, but you had no idea there were corroborating eyewitnesses and extraneous bullet damage. so much for your years of research.

and lol at the bullet exiting the right side. fact is, all the doctors are on record at one point in time stating a large exit wound at the back/rear of the head existed at the time of initial hospital operation:
http://imgur.com/f9jPg9b

the vehicle wasn't moving that quickly to explain why his brain and blood were scattered on officers and agents behind the limo. a better explanation would be god's breath was blowing against kennedy's face the moment of headshot impact.

AFTER. Keyword, AFTER the fact. I know the facts well enough to know exactly what you're arguing. Why do you need to be an ass about it? I'm not trying to argue YOU here, merely the evidence in question. Stop taking it personally.

I've seen that famour photo compilation of all the docs and witnesses holding their hands to the back of their heads. The problem is that 1) that ISNT what the z-film shows and 2) a shot from the knoll would NOT have cause a wound like the one everyone in that photo compilation seems to indicate. In fact, Lee Bowers shooting the President makes a lot more sense if you wanna take ONLY that photo into account to determine where exactly the wound was. Actually, James Tague makes a lot of sense too, since he was front/left of JFK...but I think we will all agree neither of them shot the President. If the back right side was blown out, as the doctors and witnesses in that pic seem to indicate, please tell me how a shot from the knoll would have done that?

 

[nf4m]

AFTER. Keyword, AFTER the fact. I know the facts well enough to know exactly what you're arguing. Why do you need to be an ass about it? I'm not trying to argue YOU here, merely the evidence in question. Stop taking it personally.

what? you didn't even know there were corroborating eyewitnesses, let alone extraneous bullet damage in the limo. i'm not taking it personally. i'm saying your entire credibility is shot.

I've seen that famour photo compilation of all the docs and witnesses holding their hands to the back of their heads. The problem is that 1) that ISNT what the z-film shows and 2) a shot from the knoll would NOT have cause a wound like the one everyone in that photo compilation seems to indicate.

no, the problem is you've chosen 1 frame out of 50 and spun it to ignore all evidence of a frontal shot. and why wouldn't a shot from the knoll result in an exit wound in the rear of kennedy's head, as all the doctors are motioning? you don't make any sense. http://imgur.com/f9jPg9b

 

[z1ggy]

So I just finished reading the wiki page on the actual assassination events. Looks like blood went forward as well. However, I'm not sure what type of tissue was found where, etc. It seems like most of the brain and skull matter went backwards, not forwards though.

Why haven't they tried to do an actual recreation of this event? Get a ballastic dummy fit with a skull, brain matter etc and shoot it with the same gun Oswald used. Do it outside, at the same distance and angle, with similar wind and humidity coniditions, and have the dummy be moving the same speed the President's car was. See what happens. Compare results from the evidence taken. If they don't match.. Then one would conclude something different may have happened.

 

[chihlidog]

what? you didn't even know there were corroborating eyewitnesses, let alone extraneous bullet damage in the limo. i'm not taking it personally. i'm saying your entire credibility is shot.



no, the problem is you've chosen 1 frame out of 50 and spun it to ignore all evidence of a frontal shot. and why wouldn't a shot from the knoll result in an exit wound in the rear of kennedy's head, as all the doctors are motioning? you don't make any sense. http://imgur.com/f9jPg9b

I'm fully aware of the other damage to the limo including the cracked windshield and the dent in the chrome. What does that prove in your mind? The bullet that hit the skull fragmented and chunks went all over the place. You keep mentioning the other damage, but I'm not sure what it's supposed to prove....and I am also aware of other "witnesses", but the key is what they said that day and what they said close to the time of the assassination, in context with what everyone else in Dealey Plaza says they saw that day.

Most witnesses in Dealey Plaza heard 3 shots. Most witnesses said they heard shots from the direction of the TSBD.

Give me a text link if you want me to try and respond to specific other witnesses, I cannot watch a video at work. I am aware of Lee Bowers and what he said, and also one other family that seemed to indicate they thought something may have happened behind the fence, though they weren't sure what it was either. If you want to provide more specifics, awesome. I'd love to read it.

And no, I havent chosen one frame to base all of this on. I havent chosen anything. Ive looked at everything I've been able to find. He DOES move forward BEFORE he moves backwards, with a motion MORE consistent with the momentum of a rifle bullet. If a gunshot caused the backwards motion we see him make after the headshot, then we're talking something more along the lines of an artillery shell rather than a rifle. Gunshots dont pack THAT much power to knock someone backward like that, their momentum is concentrated in a small area. I'm not arguing this because I want to believe the Warren Commission, I'm arguing this because it's simply true.

As far as the nature of the wound.....if one chooses to accept that the BACK of the head was blown out, one must then accept that the Z-film we see today has been altered. It's conflicting evidence. I find it easier to accept that all of those people are somewhat misrepresenting the wound from memory than I do to accept that the Z-film was altered.

 

[chihlidog]

So I just finished reading the wiki page on the actual assassination events. Looks like blood went forward as well. However, I'm not sure what type of tissue was found where, etc. It seems like most of the brain and skull matter went backwards, not forwards though.

Why haven't they tried to do an actual recreation of this event? Get a ballastic dummy fit with a skull, brain matter etc and shoot it with the same gun Oswald used. Do it outside, at the same distance and angle, with similar wind and humidity coniditions, and have the dummy be moving the same speed the President's car was. See what happens. Compare results from the evidence taken. If they don't match.. Then one would conclude something different may have happened.

It has been done actually, multiple times. The best one was the discovery channel's "Beyond the Magic Bullet".

They didnt get it PERFECT, the shot came out more towards the chest than the neck in their recreation. I didnt like that they sort of seemed to want to gloss that over. I'd say watch it for yourself and see what you think. But it does give one a bit better perspective on how the "magic" bullet couldve worked.

 

[Gunslinger08]

I was into the conspiracy theories as a kid. I was 100% convinced Oswald didn't act alone, based on mostly the "magic bullet" and several eye witness reports. As I've gotten older, I've realized that:

1. I knew nothing about actual ballistics. Bullets can move in very strange ways when they hit a medium density target.

2. Eye witnesses are extremely unreliable. This is very well documented. Even I have seen issues with my own reliability in much less stressful situations. Cars change color or models in memory. Faces get distorted. Things in your peripheral vision get misinterpreted. Basically, we have terrible recall of even the most blatant facts when stress is involved, unless we are trained for it and have experience.

3. There were quite a few people who had something to gain from his death, but you can say that about pretty much any public figure. Much is made of evidence tampering, witness suppression, etc. I am almost 100% sure some of this is true, but the much simpler explanation is that everyone wanted to cover their own asses. Nobody wanted the blowback associated with the event. The CIA or FBI editing their own files to remove any potential links to Oswald definitely cover them from firings, budget cuts, and/or criminal charges for negligence.

4. Conspiracy theories are sexy. Everyone wants to think they know something that other people don't. See: JFK Assassination, moon landing hoax, 9/11 truthers, Obama birthers, MK Ultra linked to mass shootings, etc. We would have conspiracy theorists even is their was 100% iron clad video evidence against their theory. It's tough to win against people who are more emotional than logical.

 

[z1ggy]

It has been done actually, multiple times. The best one was the discovery channel's "Beyond the Magic Bullet".

They didnt get it PERFECT, the shot came out more towards the chest than the neck in their recreation. I didnt like that they sort of seemed to want to gloss that over. I'd say watch it for yourself and see what you think. But it does give one a bit better perspective on how the "magic" bullet couldve worked.

Right, that's well and dandy. I can believe one bullet moved during it's trajectory through JFK and the gov. because of it hitting/passing through certain mediums.

However, I'd want to see a solid experiment done about the headshot portion of it.

To me it just seems unlikely that skull would end up behind JFK from a high speed (rifle) bullet if he was hit from behind.

Either way honestly, we will never get a definative answer. It will always be speculation at best, even if we can show through analysis that the killshot came from in front or behind JFK.

 

[chihlidog]

Right, that's well and dandy. I can believe one bullet moved during it's trajectory through JFK and the gov. because of it hitting/passing through certain mediums.

However, I'd want to see a solid experiment done about the headshot portion of it.

To me it just seems unlikely that skull would end up behind JFK from a high speed (rifle) bullet if he was hit from behind.

Either way honestly, we will never get a definative answer. It will always be speculation at best, even if we can show through analysis that the killshot came from in front or behind JFK.

Ahhhh, I didnt realize you meant the headshot.

There were skull fragments found in quite a few places, the largest being known as the "Harper fragment". There's debate over where EXACTLY it was found, but Harper himself said he found it forward of where the headshot took place. Some were indeed found behind, and many people feel that Jackie was trying to grab one from the trunk lid (though she never said this). If memory serves, CLint Hill (the Agent we see climbing onto the trunk) thought maybe that's what she was doing, though I may be remembering that one wrong.

Anyway, a lot of the skull, brain and blood goes UP and hangs for a short time, then rains down on the people and vehicles moving forward. In the z-film, once again, you can see a large piece of the skull going mostly up and slightly forward (and most people think this IS the Harper fragment for what it's worth).

I dont claim to be a ballistics expert, but if the right top side of the skull was blown out from s shot from behind, none of this strikes me as implausible. Certainly more plausible than a shot from the front or the right - and I'll throw this out there since I dont know if it's really clear to most people, but the grassy knoll at the time of the headshot was closer to 90 degrees to the SIDE of JFK than in front.

 

[chihlidog]

And for good measure, here's Abraham Zapruder pointing out where he saw the wound that day:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/zap.gif

 

[z1ggy]

Just tossing this out too. And honestly.. There's just so much info involved here and so many different factors. It's more than just some cut and dry speculation really.

Film and photographic evidence of the assassination have led viewers to different conclusions regarding the origin of the shots. In the Zapruder film, the President's head and upper torso move backwards after the last, fatal shot—an indication that the bullet was fired from the front. However, close inspection of frames 312 and 313 show Kennedy's head moving forward by as much as 1.9 inches, before his head moves backwards.[111] Some, including Robert Groden and Cyril Wecht, state that the film is evidence of a "double hit" to Kennedy's head.[112][113] Wecht believes that the film depicts the President's head being "struck twice in a synchronized fashion, from the rear and the right front side."[113] A further theory says that it was the braking of the car by the driver William Greer which caused Kennedy's head to move forward as a frontal shot was fired. Paul Chambers argues that Frame Z313 shows multiple jets of blood, bone and brain matter exiting just above Kennedy's right ear and claims this is consistent with a high velocity (approx. 4,000 ft/sec) rifle rather than the medium velocity (2,000 ft/sec) Mannlicher-Carcano.[114] Chambers also claims that analysis of the Zapruder film at normal speed shows the President's limousine comes to a complete stop moments before the final fatal head shot.[115]

...

An article which appeared in Science & Justice, a quarterly publication of Britain's Forensic Science Society, found there was a 96% certainty, based on analysis of audio recordings made during the assassination, that a shot was fired from "the grassy knoll" in front of and to the right of the President's limousine.[120][121]

 

[GundamW]

Not sure if anyone saw, but here is a stabilized version of the zapruder film:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w6zveedj0o

 

[chihlidog]

Watch carefully the beginning of that film. Almost immediately as it starts BOTH of them react to being hit. The governer's arms move and he sort of jerks right as Kennedy is clearly hit as well. Watch it several times, it's clear that both are hit at the same moment (or, at least reacting to something, clearly Kennedy is hit but some would say that Connally is only reacting to sound, I disagree, I think he is hit there and its pretty obvious but everyone of course has their own opinion).

 

[z1ggy]

^ I don't see JFK moving forward when he is hit. If he does.. It's very slight in comparison to the many inches he moves when he is blown backward by the force of a gunshot, from what I conclude to be from the front.

 

[sixone]

^ I don't see JFK moving forward when he is hit. If he does.. It's very slight in comparison to the many inches he moves when he is blown backward by the force of a gunshot, from what I conclude to be from the front.

If you watch the show in the OP, they address that. The bullet came from the back.

 

[z1ggy]

If you watch the show in the OP, they address that. The bullet came from the back.

Just watched it. Very interesting and I can't argue with science. Only question remaining I have really is how he got off those 2 shots in apparently a max of 1.6 seconds, with the 3rd finally killing JFK.

Also did they confirm the bullet frags found were that of the 6.5mm bullet? I don't think they ever really said that, I suppose it was just assumed.

With having watched that now, I'm very convinced it was a head shot from behind. However, that doesn't mean it had to have been LHO.

 

[SKORPI0]

What disturbs me that JFK's head jerks back during the moment of impact. How could a bullet coming from behind do that?

Oh, there's a rerun of that Nova -Cold Case JFK at Friday, 4am CST.

 

[zinfamous]

^ I don't see JFK moving forward when he is hit. If he does.. It's very slight in comparison to the many inches he moves when he is blown backward by the force of a gunshot, from what I conclude to be from the front.

that exit wound explosion on his face....is an exit wound. The force of his skull and brain matter being blasted from his head is what jerks his head back.

 

[sixone]

that exit wound explosion on his face....is an exit wound. The force of his skull and brain matter being blasted from his head is what jerks his head back.

Or a full-body muscle spasm, as his brain blew up. Since back muscles are stronger than abdominal muscles, he would have jerked to the back.

That was the theory in the show, anyway.

 

[zinfamous]

Or a full-body muscle spasm, as his brain blew up. Since back muscles are stronger than abdominal muscles, he would have jerked to the back.

That was the theory in the show, anyway.

Ah, interesting. I'd like to see that show, glad it will be on again. Nova reruns all the time--also, Nova has always been the bomb-diggidy...as some are want to say. :hmm:

It still surprises me that some people actually believe in the conspiracy nonsense. The Warren Report was beyond thorough and at the time, the various conspiracies were entertained and rather soundly trounced by evidence.

As for Oswald, he has a rather checkered past--self-exile to the USSR then being exiled by the USSR, iirc. The FBI had already been following him for some time--ex military defecting to the USSR? you can bet he had a file. His life was directionless and in shambles at the time, plus Kennedy was a rather staunch anti-communist.

Hinkley's motivation to shoot Regan was to get Jodi Foster to notice him. So, it doesn't take much, it seems.

 

[z1ggy]

Ah, interesting. I'd like to see that show, glad it will be on again. Nova reruns all the time--also, Nova has always been the bomb-diggidy...as some are want to say. :hmm:

It still surprises me that some people actually believe in the conspiracy nonsense. The Warren Report was beyond thorough and at the time, the various conspiracies were entertained and rather soundly trounced by evidence.

As for Oswald, he has a rather checkered past--self-exile to the USSR then being exiled by the USSR, iirc. The FBI had already been following him for some time--ex military defecting to the USSR? you can bet he had a file. His life was directionless and in shambles at the time, plus Kennedy was a rather staunch anti-communist.

Hinkley's motivation to shoot Regan was to get Jodi Foster to notice him. So, it doesn't take much, it seems.

I don't really want to believe in a conspiracy, but I feel like there is a lot more going on beneath the hood if you do some research. What I don't get is why there are people out there saying they know directly of people involved in a plot to take JFK out. Obviously just reading a bunch of wiki articles is not a super awesome source, but it gives a base to start on, and to realize it's really not as cut and dry as it could seem on the surface.